Tuning Garage Links & FITT Physics Discussions

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by Motor City Hami, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    For starting point it's excellent, there is several places where you can feel/see/hear/measure differences.
    I'll post my setup when on ps3.
    Changing of brake balance by wheel change is pretty easy to spot, for one easy thing to notice. Less body roll, easy to see/feel. Higher resistance on driving wheel, easy to spot.
    Why these are coming, because I'm using high camber rear and lower on front.
    Chicane before start/finish line gives drivingwheel user great feedback when wheel touches or not track, depending wheel used they are either jumping or traveling along track.
    Actually track isn't so challenging, making tune what works there was bit challenging.

    I have more than good senses, but this doesn't need any super senses, just using brains to figure reason why car behaves differently on different wheels.
    I have done "Pepsi tests", asked friend to test (former rally driver) and results are same.
     
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  2. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    I know :) There are very few people that have posted comments on how they are "feeling" the feedback, that describe to me the way I have been "feeling" it. And you have a much greater knowledge of the cause and effect than I do. That's why I trust your feedback and results :tup:

    I'll still try things for myself though ;)
     
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  3. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Most people are going to struggle to get a clean lap with the car/track, if you can't put down lap after lap after lap within a few tenths of each other then you are in no position to judge tiny changes in characteristics. The data gathered will be worthless

    Don't give me feelings and feedback, give me cold, hard evidence of change or improvement. I see you frequently talking about how stuff feels and real world science and all the rest but I am yet to see how one of your cars fare in competition so what evidence do I have that you know what you are doing?
     
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  4. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Well how about this.
    Take a simple track lay out, short but some solid turns, Autumn Ring Mini comes to mind.
    Take a more stable car, say maybe, a Miaita Roadster '07
    Change through, 2 styles of rims that have 3 colors each. Do ten laps.
    Redo the above test for each wheel size.
    Save best lap and load it into Motec i2 Pro, and check it over there.
    If all the data is the same or with in a few % than it's input differences, as at that point only the top 5-10% of drivers in the game will net a benefit from the improvements.
     
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  5. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Could you just wait for few hours, I'll get my arse on ps3 soon as daughter is on deep sleep, judge how easy constant lap is after you have tested test equipment.

    No need to be rude/hostile, everything here should fell under FITT main etiquette..
    BTR is way better, it won't tolerate bad settings nor wheels.
     
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  6. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    For this kind of testing for the volume that will make it viable and accepted you will need a large selection of drivers, so a forgiving car is a must, one that prettty much anyone can lap with in a tenth reguardless of skill level.
    The BTR is not that kind of car you need care with it or it will hammer you into a wall. The roadster will forgive you almost to a fault, like a loyal puppy dog.
     
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  7. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    It needs proper setup (miata) what shows suspension movements to driver.
    ...for while if you have G27 do a "hot lap" for data logger in any car, any track and wave wheel ~5 degree radius on straight, point forefinger straight on both hands as "lock" what hit on wheel base at you can do similar wave later. Then switch 670 degree mode on it and back to 900 degree and go and do same wave test. You'll find difference on wheel turn radius on data logger, made few times that test and values was -3 to +3 on default way, -5 to +5 after mode switching.
    Both test were 900 degree, difference comes from nearly zero deadzone after mode has changed from stock 900 to 670 and back 900 what is not 100% same 900 as stock.
    This is one of main reasons why i can feel differences more easily.
    After that mode change you might to want test "simulation" vs. "Professional" steering modes on GT6 settings.. "Professional" has auto correlation for steering angle, makes it's own adjustments on driver input.
    As well testing controller sensitivity settings too, my setting for it is 6 (7 felt to aggressive, but it's more "straight" input). For FFB power I have 6 and sensitivity 10. For testing I reduce drivingwheel nominal ffb weight resistance effect by using "power steering".

    @Jordan could you ask from Kaz or his staff few questions?
    Like wheel weight, offset/inset things?
    DrivingWheel settings actual meanings?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
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  8. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Your feeling the natural float the Miaiata has in it which is part of makes it so forgiving. Tighten it down with some toe on the front and read and run minimal camber. That floating should disappear mostly or completely
     
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  9. TheInfamousJEW6

    TheInfamousJEW6

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    So I'm still kind of new around these parts and all of these discussions about how the game actually works intrigue me. I've been playing GT off and on since GT1 all while using a regular controller until recently when I found a great deal in a DFGT wheel. Anyway I've been tuning now for 6 months or so using this new type of controller while trying to determine, for myself, how the physics work inside this game. I have noticed a difference, although negligible, in how a car handles using different size rims. I personally attributed this to the amount of power required to turn a larger mass versus a smaller one. But I've yet to "feel" or see any difference from color or even style of rim. Is this just because I use a different contoller than you? And if so than what about someone who uses a DS3, would they even notice a difference? I'm curious because I'm not the most consistent driver and my goal with every tune is to "stabalize" the vehicle and make it as nuetral as possible. I've never used the rims as tuning tool, just a fashion piece... Hope I'm not out of line, or asking dumb questions, just trying to wrap my head around all this debate! :cheers:
     
  10. fordlaser

    fordlaser Premium

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    That's what rims are a fashion piece and that all what they are.
     
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  11. Lionheart2113

    Lionheart2113

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    I'm all for testing these questions, but using dpads & automatic, I'm afraid I wouldn't be too much help in the "feel" department. Just straight line speed at SSRX between different sizes, styles, and even colors. I can even get the boy to help me on those.:sly: There would be only a couple of things I would request before testing...
    ALL parameters are set from the get go...ie car/track/time/air temp/car settings and any other option that needs to be considered. I'm a little tired of testing something for someone else and then having been told at the end of the tests when my results contradict what they are saying..."Oh, you were supposed to do this" or "Well, your car is the wrong color."
    Oh :censored: we'll be needing to test that as well won't we?:lol: Pink car vs orange car....

    If we are doing these tests, I would have to agree with @DolHaus and ask that those who argue that even paint on a rim can alter the speed/handling; to show their data from the game. Real world weights, physics, and links from google searches hardly constitutes in-game evidence in my opinion. If I'm taking the time to test and put my findings on a piece of paper, (as I always do) so should others.

    Just for the record...
    I do think that tire size can alter the cars performance.
    I do not think that rim choice has any benefits except in making the cars look wicked awesome.
    I do not think that rim color has any benefits either.

    Those are my 2 cents! And if I'm proven wrong by concrete evidence, then I am old enough and ugly enough to admit it.:dopey:
     
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  12. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Tune is what that need, but it should contain difference on front and rear camber settings, bigger difference is, easier wheel color coding difference is to point out.
    Reason, if identical camber values are applied on both end driving characteristics are changing identical on both end when track width of wheels are altered by changing different ET wheels, harder to see difference. When track width is widened on "higher" camber it also reduces tires touching area on ground (this because of no possibility to soften tire pressure, but can be in game changing tire compound softer will help, but not doing this during testing).
    When i.e. Front has 0.5 camber and rear 1.5 there is different tires by color coding what will give car several different driving characteristics, from high gripping front, balanced both end grip to rear gripping setups, and some wheel sets have more variation of choices(colours), having handing between those three mentioned.
    Zero camber is out of question when trying to solve wheel ET changes, it is possible to feel from it, but truly hard.
    So miata setup can't be 50/50 all-around or pointing differences is more difficult, judging similar slide on both ends etc.

    Controller accuracy is helping really much for this type of testing, i.e. If I drive my BTR on stock 900 degree setting on my G27 I'll end up against wall once or twice per ten laps, and how hard to maintain car on track because front wheels are "moving freely" 4 degree radius on center of driving wheel, vulnerable for every track shape to change direction of those inside this 4 degree. During cornering one minor correcting move to opposite side of drivingwheel center deadzone is crucial due this front wheel free movement over it.
    When using that "fixed" deadzone (stock - 670 - 900, actually it's to just press it directly to custom 900, but for verification reasons easier to do thru 670 what setting you can test to be applied and then to 900 and you're sure for changes to made) driving is way much easier coz front wheels are following wheel movements without stupid 4 degree floppy deadzone area on center, on this mode I can drive as many laps I want without spinning or losing control of car.

    Few years ago I would accept this as answer, but not anymore when having solid proof for my self how those are working.

    Saddest thing for this is PD's lack of interest to tell players/users/customers these things, more surprisingly I'm wondering why GTP staff haven't asked these things from PD when they now have open communication channel with them.?
     
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  13. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    So baisccly what you're saying is if the car is tuned for it you will see it, other wise we wont see a thing, and if we use the gaming the game set up's. Zero camber, low toe, even weight distro, we will hardly see any changes in the car. So the wheel color choice will basiclly affect the Replica drivers to any noticable extent.
    Have you tested to see if there is a difference in the wheels with a DS3? or say at 240(triangle i think) on your G27?
    The reason I ask is because a G27 is outta the question for most players, a DFGT, or DS3, or a Low turn linear resistance wheel are far far more common of controller use than a G27. If you need a G27 or higher to feel the difference than very few of the player will ever gain anything from changing from one wheel color to another.
     
  14. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    @Otaliema, toe adds "artificial" grip to tires, not helping when testing grip factor of altered wheel type. Zero camber keeps tires flat on ground as default, and ET value have not effects when tyre is touching ground flat, so again harder to point differences during zero camber.
    I'm doing miata tune for test purpose, but miata is just too easy to have easy way to point differences, but I'll check what I can do.
    No surprise at "better" driving wheel/equipment gives better feedback and also more info from game.
     
  15. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    So basiclly, what you're saying is that the wheel gains can be replicated with settings on the car by gaining grip using things such as no camber and toe settings.
    If that's the case the wheel grip gain is nothing more than placebo, because if it was real game physics they would stack as they do in real life, camber, toe and wheel effects don't disappear because you changed one of them, maybe make them less pronounced but the effect is still present.
    If you put a heavy wheel on a car it have a harder time in a turn, you can improve that by adjusting toe, camber and caster but the car is still having a harder time in the turn than compared to a lighter wheel.
     
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  16. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Don't try to put words on my mouth, never said such thing.
    If you understand what ET change does you should understand what I wrote over there.
    But to ensure for overall understanding of ET maybe this picture helps.
    ATV-Wheel-Offset-Explaination.jpg
    Then we just to think how much different forces are applied on rubber when it's running on camber, wider track width vs. Narrower track width.
    I'm not starting any education lesson here, and it would be impossible to give all information in one simple message, or if it's possible then I have been cheated to spend several years on school studying these instead of giving one simple forum message to read.
    I'll try to fix setup what can show ET changes easily understandable way. But when doing this on miata it probably masks wheel weight differences, but for that testing there is possible to do different setup.
    And speaking of gains, advantages or disadvantages, there is always same principle on motorsports, amount of grip is limited, you can only try to manipulate your setup to transfer that on places where you need it most and doing this leaves you always on compromise - you have to lose grip on other area to have it on other.
     
  17. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    My testing has begun, currently the largest discrepancy is 0.001 at 1 mile. Further testing will be needed to identify whether this difference is related to the wheel type or testing method
     
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  18. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    @OdeFinn Not trying to put words in your mouth. Just stating that if in game I gain the same effects as chaning rims by changing suspension settings. Than in all probability it's placebo effect on the wheels.
    (numbers pulled from thin air no data or real reference used) Because If Gain say 0.5 G load with say Superlaggra wheels, I could also gain 0.5 G load with a toe setting of 0.35 on the wheels. Than I would gain 0.75 G load with both after diminishing returns are considered. But I still only have 0.5 G load with both on the car, meaning on of them is a placebo.
    Now if after testing is done and the data shows there is a gain with wheels I will admit it, but if the data says other wise, than it's all in our heads.
     
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  19. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    If you have tune on hardest possible working springs where it's just having enough grip to leave standing start without skidding when heavy wheel is installed, then lighter wheel will just skid huge amounts more. This will show easy way differences, accelerating with different weight of wheels (in range of available) using sufficient grip for acceleration differences can be really minimal on 1 mile drag.
     
  20. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    My testing methodology gives a repeatable set of datum results to compare others against, this allows for further isolated adjustments to identify the cause of discrepancies should it be needed.
     
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  21. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    You can't spilt different parts of suspension and speak benefits of them on same line.
    If you gain that 0.5g from wheel you have to see is that longitudinal grip or lateral grip, and if you gain 0.5g from toe same goes here, grip gained from toe is also affecting your cornering, most cases when let say your leggeras are giving 0.5 overall grip, and then you have steelcabs with 0.2g overall and you get them grip 0.5g by 0.35 toe, those steelcabs aren't giving that during cornering, only when driving straight. Those can give more or less depending suspension geometry etc.. Too many things involved, simple to say: you can't break a part of grip and use it as simple value, those are getting too much variations from several parts of overall suspension.
    Facts: game has caster (fixed per car), camber, toe. Those are main parts what made suspension geometry, then ride height, springs and shock absorbers and arb are pieces what you can use for manipulating geometric moves lenght and speed. Only one piece of those is doing "universal" job, anti-roll bar it joints sides to each other and therefore it has bit of both effects, it's not changing actual movement geometry, but it multiplies other suspension parts effective forces.

    Gimme bit time tonight and will prepare you a easy car to drive constant lap, using that Miata..
     
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  22. Lionheart2113

    Lionheart2113

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    @DolHaus I would just wait until all of the specs ready to go in the other thread before spending the time testing. (You're such an eager beaver :p) I would hate to see someone using the wrong settings... wasting everyone's time with contaminated results :rolleyes:
    Will dpad users even be able to take part in this test? :odd:

    I hope so...:scared:
     
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  23. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Yes because we need all input types. If it's game data causing the changes it should affect everyone if it's not that's something we need to know.
     
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  24. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    @OdeFinn the reason I ranted about you not entering a FITT contest before was because there have been so many others who talked the same talk about real life physics and what they think is going on but then when they put their cars into contests it turned out they weren't as fast as they thought. Its all relative, I'm sure Ferrari thought they built a pretty good race car last year but that didn't stop the Mercedes cars pulling away from them at every opportunity.

    All I'm asking is that you show us what you are capable of, if it turns out you can build cars that can compete with the best of them then people will listen to your theories and ideas more readily, if not then maybe it will help to show you that these theories and ideas perhaps aren't suited to the game and its physics :tup:
    The test is independent of the FITT discussion and can be replicated by anyone with internet access (requires course maker track). Uses a cheap, highly modifiable 4wd car that comes in near identical (same pp, 10kg weight difference) premium and standard forms, for the baseline tests the car has not been tampered with apart from changing the wheels. The test is only looking at acceleration data at the moment as its the easiest to test consistently. Its going to take a long time to accumulate a full set of data but it doesn't rely on driver skill so can be chipped away at over time
     
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  25. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Well we can get to testing sooner than later if you would like.
    Roadster RS (NC) '07 it's fast stable and reliable.
    It's an old tune but it fits your criteria other than the toe settings on the front but that's easily removed it will just be a bit sluggish on turn in.
     
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  26. TheInfamousJEW6

    TheInfamousJEW6

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    So let me see if I understand all this...

    1. In order to feel a difference in wheels on a given car, first you must set up a specific tune in order to tell a difference?

    2. If you are using a DS3 or a less accurate racing wheel controller, then feeling this difference would be less likely?

    3. And this theory is based on real world physics that may be represented in this game, or may not, depending on how PD programmed their tire physics model?

    IMO if this is all dependent on a specific tune and not able to be replicated on a "stock" vehicle with all of it's out of the box settings, nor able to be felt by anyone not using a G27... Then is it maybe possible that you are just very receptive to minute movements and feelings coming from your steering wheel, that actually have nothing to do with the physics model, but instead you're just feeling a difference in PD's Force Feedback modeling?

    When a standardized test is put forth I would love to be included as a tester, because this all intigues me so much! And please don't take any of my opinions as a slight toward your abilties as a tuner or driver! :cheers:
     
  27. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Using that car, but creating testing tune what will exaggerate wheel effects.

    On my wheel I can feel differences on stock settings too, but those are too small to give 100% proof for others, so I'm gonna do a tune what will exaggerate wheel change effect so tester will have no problems to identify changes.

    Trying to do such tune what will exaggerate so much differences at DS3 user will see and hear effects also.

    Real world in limits of PD modeling, limits on this case is static tire rubber "softness" against real world tire pressure and shape change of rubber when pressed against road.
    Few things(wheels) needs bit more testing to understand why they work as they now work, reason is that I have assumption of those being more negative offset but effect is more like positive inset - this showing on test as more bouncing and getting car stable as on many other wheels I have to drop 1mm from ride height.
    About this ride height thing, if you have interest you can test my rule of thumb on GT6 ride height versus tyre compound. When you have "perfect" tune for some particular compound, i.e. SS and ride height is on that tune i.e. 110mm, you can switch better compound tires by just dropping height 1mm per grade, meaning RS tires you use 107mm on both ends (or dropping -3mm on both ends regardless what they are, if not level height). And same goes for installing worse compound, adding 1mm more height per grade.
    This maintains all tune aspects and driveability, at least 99% of cases.
     
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  28. TheInfamousJEW6

    TheInfamousJEW6

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    Man you are just full of interesting theories! :tup: I can't wait to get on my console and test out this ride height theory! Thanks! :cheers:
     
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  29. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Tires are to me confirmed as maths for rotations give different values based on the tires on the car. They have fewer rotations with softer compound tires. @OdeFinn and @Lionheart2113 have both provided evidence of that in a PM we have going to try and get maths for advanced transmission building.
     
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  30. TheInfamousJEW6

    TheInfamousJEW6

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    Unfortunately for me a lot of this math would probably go way over my head... But I can't wait to see and test what you guys come up with! This community has so many bright and helpful people! Thanks again! :cheers:
     
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