Tuning Garage Links & FITT Physics Discussions

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by Motor City Hami, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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  2. fordlaser

    fordlaser Premium

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    I still say that all rim sizes are a fashion piece and that all what they are unless there is a clear evidence on this about rim sizes but I don't see that, but it may be marginal because of the turning inputs on a DS3 or a wheel. I would love to do more tests this with my G29 wheel but I do not think we are going to go anywhere on this subject and that is my 2 cents.
     
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  3. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    @Otaliema Roadster is just too easy car, if I enter any balanced suspension value there it does laps like a train. If this was a testing "is suspension tuning placebo" then answer would be yes, every setting laps times in same .5 sec range, there was maxed strings, maxed everything, maxed partly and many other try, but too train :) lol
    But I'll pick different one tomorrow, some cheap car what's not so train but easy enough for constant lapping.
     
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  4. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Test some wheels on it, see if the changes are there. If not the wheels maybe the placebo.
    Btw the car responds very well to extreme toe settings.
     
  5. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Tested, differences are there but harder to see. Miata is just one of world easiest car and it's not good for showing these changes well. Or my idea to exaggerate effect is not working with Miata sized/balanced car. But I'm not giving up, only with Miata as test car.
     
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  6. Lionheart2113

    Lionheart2113

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    Wouldn't we be able to use your RUF tune and follow it to the letter on Trial Mountain Reverse. Get a feel/lap time. Then throw on standard rims, color, or other variations that can change the cars performance and run again....then compare?
     
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  7. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    I suggested a more driver frieendly car to let a wider range of drivers take part and get viable test results from them. My train of thought of is if you can really only see or feel it on the super touchy cars it's not going to benifit or affect most players.
     
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  8. Lionheart2113

    Lionheart2113

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    I thought @OdeFinn said that his RUF shows a difference pending rim style and color. If there is increased grip/handling, then we should see it in lap time and the elite would be able to feel it. It would be like comparing Comfort:Soft to Comfort:Med...or am I looking at it wrong?
    I was just trying to bring up a suggestion that could save time.:scared:
     
  9. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Agreed but with a car like a RUF, it is (generally) so unstable that even the best drivers will ditch it or nearly, every few laps take a weekend warrior (like my self in terms of skill) and you're driving is not consistent and any gains caused by the rims could be simply chalked up to a good lap.
    Take a fairly solid car that any pretty much anyone can get in a lay down lap after lap with in 0.500 or less, any gains from the wheels will show rather easily as the lap times will be lower every lap. even if we don't feel it like Ode does we will see it.
     
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  10. Lionheart2113

    Lionheart2113

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    Apologies, I know what you are saying, but I was going based off of this for my assumption...
    With a statement like that I thought the differences would be easy to spot.:dopey:
     
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  11. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    The key thing is the difference between feeling and interpretation. In a real car you can feel things because your body is basically a big set of sensors telling your brain whats going on around you, in a video game you are basically only interpreting what you can see and hear. Force feedback is generated but like a car with electric steering (no physical connection between steering wheel and steering rack) it is only telling you what it is programmed to, the extra resistance you are feeling at speed isn't due to additional forces but instead the programmers interpretation of how much resistance there should be at that moment based upon road speed.
    You can feel oversteer in a real car because the fluid in your inner ears is telling your brain that you are rotating and the nerves in your muscles are telling it where the G forces are pulling more strongly allowing it to establish what is going on relative to its environment, the subtle feeling of the steering wanting to follow the direction of travel, the difference in vibration coming through the seat etc. etc. all these things are constantly being compared and checked against each other in order to tell your brain what is going on.
    In a video game you don't have any of this specialised sensory equipment, you have an idea of what direction you expect to be facing on exit relative to your steering inputs and then you are compare that with what you are seeing, if you are rotating more than expected in relation to input then we interpret this as oversteer. We can't feel why the oversteer might have occurred, we can just try to analyse the situation based on the limited resources of what we can see or hear - What inputs was I making? Did the car visually appear to be pitching or rolling excessively? Did the little indicator show any wheels turning red? How much tire squeal/rpm change could I hear? We then compare these reference points with past experiences and gathered knowledge to make an educated guess at a solution followed by further comparison and evaluation.
    I suppose an apt analogy would be trying to tie your shoelaces with numb hands, you can see, hear and manipulate your appendages the same as before but now even simple tasks become clumsy haphazard affairs because your brain is so reliant on the less obvious senses.
     
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  12. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    ..work takes huge part of my time, but not forgetting this, trying to fix time for this soon.

    Seeing possibility of time for this on nearby days.
     
  13. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    And there in lies the issue ;)

    I realise this probably won't go down well with quite a few people who read this, so please know this is directed to no-one in particular and all at the same time. And is posted with all due respect and a whole lot more :)

    There is no difference between feeling, and interpretation. Only that one is done purely from an outside perspective and one is not :crazy:
    We all do both, all the time. We see, hear, smell, taste and touch, the resulting electrical signals that these senses send to our brain is then interpreted and we feel what it tells us :) Pure biology right!? We are all the same, but not. We all have had different experiences which make us who we are, this determines how we ourselves interpret everything we see, hear smell etc. To one of us, heavy metal music might sound good, to another...not so much, some may even hate it. The same goes for every other sense. Some like hot, some like cold, some like the feeling of sand between their toes, others, I don't get, but they find it not so pleasant ;)
    How we choose to feel about something is purely based on how we interpret what these senses are telling us compared to what we know from past experiences, whether we know it or not :dopey:

    Now, the real crazy bit. I know exactly what you are saying DolHaus, trust me, I do. And I can feel the passion with which it was written (as can just about everyone ;)).

    Now tell me, how is that possible? All that is on the page is words. All we are using to feel that passion is our eyes.

    There is no difference between how I or anyone else can feel the passion of your words. And how anyone can feel what these virtual cars are doing in out digital race track. Some may be a little more sensitive to things, no, let me rephrase that. All people are more sensitive to some things than others. I've been into music my whole life, one way or another. Listening and playing. I still can't tune my guitar by ear, but I know a man who can ;)

    My point is. We get to use three of our five senses playing GT and you are trying to tell me, and everyone else, that we humans can feel pleasure, pain, passion and compassion by reading a few words, using only our sense of vision (and mine ain't even all the good :lol:) But we can't feel how the car is behaving in a game based on sight, sound and touch!? :confused:

    The reason that people who keep saying that real life physics works is because the are using their three senses to compare with their experiences and it's telling them what it is. Pure and simple :) They have taken off all of the assists that the game has to offer (except those based on controller used ;)) They have tried what either their experiences tell them to be true based on real life physics and/or personal experience behind a wheel and they have used their three senses to tell the whether or not these things hold true or not.

    Until any of us has done that, we really don't know either way. And no amount of interpreting numbers on a page can ever come close to what experience and knowledge combined can.

    That is just but one of the lessons I taught myself by taking that step and turning all those aids off, and trying. One of the other extremely important ones is, I thought before I did that I was getting pretty good at this tuning stuff, I had read everything I could to help me and I was comfortable with what I was doing. Then I realised, I hadn't even gotten close yet.

    The aids and assists all hide something to us. Where we actually stand in our understanding of the physics present in the game. We cant compare what we don't know. And we can't know what we don't experience :idea:

    I know now what I didn't then. That I knew nothing about tuning. I did everything based on what I felt was right because it made the car do what I wanted it to....go faster. But in doing this, I limited the potential of the cars to suit my needs and desires. How else could someone beat me by 2 seconds with someone else's car but by less than half a second in one I tuned!? ;) Simple, I made it do what I wanted, not what it needed.

    Anyway, the point I suppose is. Don't ever tell anyone else that they can't do something. Or that there is a difference where there is not, or vice versa. You do not know what they know, and you are in no position to ever assume otherwise. If you want to know it, you need to do it :D:tup:

    On a side note. Why do these people not enter FITT competitions? Because they have nothing to prove. They refuse to be judged and have no desire to judge others. They know where they stand and they feel good there :) Don't ever misinterpret their trying to help, with them putting you down (or making you feel like that's what they are doing ;)) because I know from personal experience that it's not the case (most of the time) :) If they seem to know something you don't, or are telling you something you think is wrong, put yourself in their shoes completely and think again ;) Also please remember that we don't all speak the same language here even though we have to, don't see things that are not there based on poor translations ;)

    :cheers::gtpflag:
     
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  14. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    I am withdrawing from the discussion as I fear it has sidetracked too far, I will be completing my investigations as time permits and will publish my findings when ready. Good luck to anyone else who tries to get to the bottom of this and try to remain objective at all times, keep in mind that opinion is not evidence and the more you have to manipulate the situation to prove a point the less likely it is to be true :tup:
     
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  15. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    I think I will just play Project Cars tonight.
     
  16. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    This is a video game. You cannot replicate reality. Not going to happen.
    Boys.
     
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  17. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    I think I'm gonna disappear again, played with a Fiat 500 in the new hot hatch seasonal and confirmed for myself that GT4's magic force is back.

    I swear it wasn't there at release and I recall the Megane in one of the license tests pulling a rear tire on entry, but it's definitely there now. In a situation where one tire would normally be lifted off the ground by cornering forces, the opposite tire instead unloads.

    There are ways to skirt the issue and dance around it, playing within the game's happy place, but between that and the magic suspension there's just about no point. Don't get me started on toe's effects on traction and drag.
     
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  18. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    MB E 2.5 - 16 Evolution II '91
    99/99
    9.96/8.48
    3/2
    5/6
    4/4
    0.5/1.5
    -0.01/+0.10
    Standard brakes 5/7

    Max speed 290kmh
    3.799
    2.474
    1.757
    1.311
    1.000
    Fg 3.565

    LSD 5/25/6
    Standard clutch
    Standard propeller

    98.3% power limiter
    Engine stage 3
    Sports computer
    Racing exhaust
    Isometric exhaust manifold
    Catalytic converter sports
    Intake tuning

    Weight reduction stage 3

    This should give you 500pp/405hp/1112kg/40.0kgfm

    No body rigidity, if values aren't matching without oil change, then change oil and they will match.

    Tires Comfort Soft

    Track Tsukuba

    Tune is made for stock wheels, so prefer to try first with them to get familiar with car.
    Then for testing I checked few wheel setups:
    OZ Racing Ultraleggera with 4 colors. - this for testing differences between colors.
    And checked both RAYS TE37SL wheels.

    Have fun and remember to drive this WITHOUT OUT ABS.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
  19. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    IMG_20160115_150139.jpg I'm able to put all wheels on high 1:04, only one exception, didn't get my driving to adapt those and left slightly over 1:05.
    Tried with G27 using previously mentioned settings (few messages ago) and also without altering G27 deadzone, both ways are showing same placebos on same wheel sets..

    When testing, use EXACT settings from above, don't alter brake balance or anything.
     
  20. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Shouldn't this posted in the Wheel style and color testing thread?
     
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  21. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Soon there too. Preparing my self for work. Doing it when on work.

    Edit: it's there now, not a shiny marketing post, but something.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2016
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  22. demonchilde

    demonchilde

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    Is it just me, or am I seeing a lot more LSD settings going higher and higher on tunes these days?
    Did I miss something while I was away?
    Game update change something?
    20-30 is one thing, but I see random higher and max around.
    Yeah, I am referring to nondirt/snow/drift tunes.
    I ask here, as I would assume if changes had been made, you guys would have figured out how by now.
    Thanks as always^^
     
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  23. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    No sure who are having higher LSD lately, but I have been doing the same thing since I started playing GT, I can have LSD as low as less than 20 to 60 :lol: :p, seriously, it's driver dependent, some don't like low LSD, some do, some do both.
     
  24. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Nope, same as it ever was. High numbers can work in certain situations but there tend to be more drawbacks than gains in terms of lap time, can be a lot of fun in some cars though (BMW 135i comes to mind)
     
  25. coryclifford

    coryclifford

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    The fastest ZZII guys are in the 50s in the rear. Weird to me but it works. Guess the front pulls it around before it gets all sideways crazy action. Otherwise, under 20 for sure.
     
  26. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    I've been seeing and using crazy LSD setups lately. But on a 4wd I've always done a 5/30/5 5/55/5 type setup with a 45/55 split as that gives fantastic rotation and front pulls the car out if most spins so it's a great way to help overcome the inherent understeer of 4wd.
    FF I tend to go 20-30 on acceleration
    FR/MR I'm always under 15. Except for decl which can be as high as 40 on the more twitchy ones
     
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  27. demonchilde

    demonchilde

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    Thanks for the responses guys.
    I guess overall, people are just feeling a bit easier with exploring new settings and options then they used to be. I think thats a good thing.
    I have a feeling I will be keeping my lower settings however, until they stop working for me.
    Thanks again.
     
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  28. MrGrado

    MrGrado

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    You can go big with LSD and negative with rear toe and it kind of cancels out in long bends until you brake or coast, then your car is loose. It some times works at Bathurst for a critical bend and it is what I did for the Senna contest. The tunes can become unpredictable though.
     
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