UEFA Euro 2016 Finals

[Highlandor]

The problem(s) with England aren't new, and it's not just being "brittle" in the last stages, we haven't looked a 'team' for a long, long time in the group stages (of a major final) either. Not just Brazil '14, but remember South Africa '10 too.

One of the biggest issues is that lack of an international quality left sided (left footed) winger, not since the John Barnes / Chris Waddle era has there been someone. We tried everyone from centre forwards, centre midfield, left backs and no-one has manged it on a consistent basis. Why hasn't the FA used their school of excellence to help even the numbers of quality left footed players too, surely it's a no brainer that the School of excellence could be utilised for that, but when has the FA even acknowldge or recognised the problem - never.

Along with this, we've not had a midfield player / play maker to keep the midfield togethor, Gerard and Lampard were world class at club level, but not in an England shirt, and they were more attacking midfielders than playmakers.

Scholes had the ability to find space in midfield, receive the ball easily and pass it on, keeping possesion, before him, we had Gascoigne - for all his off field antics, Gascoigne gave the England team an outlet in midfield as well as someone who had the ability to take on an opponent with the ball.

Since these two, we've had no-one to fill these roles - look at Modric for Croatia, Pirlo for Italy, Ineista for Spain, Hamsik fo Slovakia etc etc - who have we had since Scholes retired. We've an abundance of attacking midfielders who 'play / pass' their way forward, but if it didn't work with Gerard and Lampard (2 of the best we've ever had), it's not going to work with the current ones.

This leaves the midfield unbalanced, disjointed, inaffective, which has a massive impact on the team as the midfield are there to do both roles, attack and defend. Players look flat footed, waiting for someone else to do something, instead of taking the initiative to do it themselves.

For years we've been trying to fit a square shape in a round hole - we need someone who knows he players, keeps it simple, gets the players to play naturally in their normal positions.

No 'diamonds', no square shapes through round holes etc etc - someone who knows the players well, they play a simple system where everyone (even the fans and pundits etc) know what's happening and the players can concentrate on doing what they do best, and not be held back by trying to get their braincell to work out what's supposed to be going on.

 

[Akmuq]

Rooney tried to be that player during the tournament, and it's what fans want Wilshere to be but he can't stay fit.


Dier is that player IMO (but Rooney took on the responsibility) but other than that England don't have any of those type of players coming through. I've wanted Spurs to keep Carroll and Mason as they can be that player but I don't think they'll be good enough for England.

Drinkwater is that player, Shelvey when he cares is that player. But players like Henderson and Milner are picked.

 

[Formula1269]

I think Rooney's a bad apple. Team's been consistently **** since he's been in it. Time for him to retire.

 

[Bram Turismo]

I think it's down to poor coaching.

Typical excuse for a footballer trying to save his skin.
For all the money these Premier League players earn, they can as well put some effort into it.

 

[Famine]

Typical excuse for a footballer trying to save his skin.
For all the money these Premier League players earn, they can as well put some effort into it.

I'd have thought that a player who would cost you £30m to buy wouldn't need a 70-year old man to tell him how to play...

 

[dacc10]

Nah England to win by at least two I think, some players due a big performance like Alli and Sterling....

So... England would win by two atleast? Funny.

What an humiliation after trash talking when Portugal tied with Iceland... Such arrogance for no reason, towards us and towards the "smaller" teams... Never underestimate others, that's one thing that I learned long ago, but it seems that lots of people around here didn't...

Funny how everyone calls Ronaldo arrogant, but then they can't see that they are as much or even more arrogant. It's easy to judge others for no reason at all, but it's much harder to judge ourselves.

@Famine, you really hate Ronaldo huh? If he had killed someone I would get why the hate, but he didn't... I start to feel the hate bandwagon. "Why do you hate him? I don't know, but since everyone does the same, I should also do it."

But hey, who am I after all? I just enjoy watching football, without judging what certain players are as a person based on a 90 minute game. Oh, maybe I'm the arrogant here because of that.

Just a little throwback to the game Croatia-Portugal... those dives by Croatia's players... was Srna thinking he was on a football pitch or in a swimming pool? Oh, these details no one notices... how funny is that...

 

[Highlandor]

Rooney tried to be that player during the tournament, and it's what fans want Wilshere to be but he can't stay fit.


Dier is that player IMO (but Rooney took on the responsibility) but other than that England don't have any of those type of players coming through. I've wanted Spurs to keep Carroll and Mason as they can be that player but I don't think they'll be good enough for England.

Drinkwater is that player, Shelvey when he cares is that player. But players like Henderson and Milner are picked.

Yeh, Rooney tried, but he's always been a centre forward, we're back to trying to fit a square shape in a round hole. Plus he's having to do it in an unbalanced and dysfunctional midfield, which made it even harder for him.

I think Dier played well, one of the few who stood out, but I see him more as a holding player than a playmaker, same as Shelvey. Shelvey needs to find his place, he seemed to be more attacking at Swansea, but more of a holding player / tackler at Newcastle.

Drinkwater played well as an all round midfielder (EDIT: in the league), not sure I'd call him a playmaker but I think he was definately worth a shout in the squad a least. Not sure about Henderson, he seems to stay flat footed amd point at people, rather than make something happen - what was he doing when Italy scored their 2nd in Brazil, surely he should've covered Welbeck - that's why I'm not convinced about him.

Wilshire seemed to do ok first half against Slovakia, I thought that was the best shape England had all tournament, but he was taken off 2nd half..

Not sure if he was fit, but surprised Barkley didn't play at all, he seems to be positive when he gets the ball, wanting to go forward, try to make something happen.

 

[Akmuq]

Barkley is a similar player to Alli in my opinion, I'd only pick between them on form, I wouldn't change tactics between one or the other.

But I do believe that Dier can be an Alonso/Busquets type player, he has started to show a fantastic range of passing to compliment his defensive abilities, I wouldn't be surprised if he is Spurs best player next season.

 

[Peasantslayer]

Alli had a poor tournament in my opinion and with the chances that have fell his way in his short time as an England player he hasn't looked convincing at all, I thought Barkley would have made an appearance.

 

[GTFan24]

Poor guy.

 

[dacc10]

Poor guy.

The timing is just on point... the exact moment he mentioned Sigurdsson, he scored...

 

[Highlandor]

Barkley is a similar player to Alli in my opinion, I'd only pick between them on form, I wouldn't change tactics between one or the other.

But I do believe that Dier can be an Alonso/Busquets type player, he has started to show a fantastic range of passing to compliment his defensive abilities, I wouldn't be surprised if he is Spurs best player next season.

Alli reminds me of Gerard, someone who makes a run from midfield and or shoots long range. But also like Lampard, where he's prolific at his club, but not so much at international level.

I think in the long term, Dier / Stones combo (holding player / centre back) has great potential, we ust need to find the other players to compliment them.

I thought Oxlade-Chamberlain had potential to b a creative player in midfield, but between his injuries and getting put out wide at Arsenal that seems to gone to pot

Another 'outsider', albiet for a winger would be Zaha at Palace. The boy has some skill, but his final ball / pass or shot is pretty awful, but he seems to have a fair few tricks up his sleeve and can ghost past people at times.. Him on one wing and maybe Rashford on the other might have potential...

 

[Famine]

@Famine, you really hate Ronaldo huh? If he had killed someone I would get why the hate, but he didn't... I start to feel the hate bandwagon. "Why do you hate him? I don't know, but since everyone does the same, I should also do it."

That's odd. I don't see any mention of hating him in my post...

I just think he's an appalling, snide, cheap, cheating, self-entitled, arrogant, preening, childish player who personifies everything that people who hate football hate about football. His on the pitch antics are an embarrassment to the game, regardless of his talent.

Whether people agree with me or not doesn't concern me. I'm sure some will - I'm not uniquely gifted in having eyes - but that's their opinion, not mine.

What an humiliation after trash talking when Portugal tied with Iceland... Such arrogance for no reason, towards us and towards the "smaller" teams... Never underestimate others, that's one thing that I learned long ago, but it seems that lots of people around here didn't...

I remember a player after an humiliating result against Iceland and a personally poor performance saying that Iceland has a small mentality, weren't trying to win, celebrated like they had won the tournament and would achieve nothing in the competition. He refused to shake hands after the match too, in a further display of terrible sportsmanship.

Now, what was his name again..?


Meanwhile, back in England... Out next manager is reportedly going to be a caretaker who once choked massively and quite publicly. He'll be holding the fort until another foreign manager who routinely finishes second-best gets bored of his lucrative club contract.

In the meantime we're all having difficulty even identifying a starting England XI because we don't have enough quality in all departments to make an obvious team and our clubs are already signing £40m+ of Belgian and Swiss players - but no-one at the FA sees a connection between these things...

 

[Highlandor]

That's odd. I don't see any mention of hating him in my post...

I just think he's an appalling, snide, cheap, cheating, self-entitled, arrogant, preening, childish player who personifies everything that people who hate football hate about football. His on the pitch antics are an embarrassment to the game, regardless of his talent.

I don't think Ronaldo is that bad generally, I think he's frustrated at the National side under achieving at major tournaments, when he's used to winning the top competitions at club level. It's not excusable, he shouldn't be like that and maybe should show a bit more humility, especially as he has done so at club level and in his private life.

It's not like Rooney who got caught doing the dirty on his missus twice, he didn't learn his lesson after the grandma scandal, he went and did it again. Then had the audacity to moan about the England fans, who travelled all the way to South Africa to watch them play like a pub team at the 2010 World Cup, about how nice it was to have your fans boo you.

I think he's a better example of what's wrong than Ronaldo, at least Ronaldo didn't shag his friend's ex girlfriend and go to court over racist comments (ahem... cough cough........ johnterry).

 

[Famine]

It's not like Rooney who got caught doing the dirty on his missus twice, he didn't learn his lesson after the grandma scandal, he went and did it again. Then had the audacity to moan about the England fans, who travelled all the way to South Africa to watch them play like a pub team at the 2010 World Cup, about how nice it was to have your fans boo you.

I think he's a better example of what's wrong than Ronaldo, at least Ronaldo didn't shag his friend's ex girlfriend and go to court over racist comments (ahem... cough cough........ johnterry).

I don't really care about what they do off the pitch - it's pretty much a given that young, wealthy and celebrated men will behave pretty excessively and appallingly, and it's hard to separate them on that basis - but on the pitch, Ronaldo behaves abhorrently.

He's not alone in this regard, I grant you, but his spoiled brat antics and statements do put him towards the head of the pack.

 

[Highlandor]

I don't really care about what they do off the pitch - it's pretty much a given that young, wealthy and celebrated men will behave pretty excessively and appallingly, and it's hard to separate them on that basis - but on the pitch, Ronaldo behaves abhorrently.

He's not alone in this regard, I grant you, but his spoiled brat antics and statements do put him towards the head of the pack.

We'll agree to disagree.

Yes, he has been a bit of a 'spoilt brat' with some of his statements recently, but I do feel he's well above Rooney et all, especially off the pitch and IMHO that does make, at least, some difference.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...thlete-after-donating-thousands-10459073.html

 

[Brend]

So... England would win by two atleast? Funny.

What an humiliation after trash talking when Portugal tied with Iceland... Such arrogance for no reason, towards us and towards the "smaller" teams... Never underestimate others, that's one thing that I learned long ago, but it seems that lots of people around here didn't...

Funny how everyone calls Ronaldo arrogant, but then they can't see that they are as much or even more arrogant. It's easy to judge others for no reason at all, but it's much harder to judge ourselves.

@Famine, you really hate Ronaldo huh? If he had killed someone I would get why the hate, but he didn't... I start to feel the hate bandwagon. "Why do you hate him? I don't know, but since everyone does the same, I should also do it."

But hey, who am I after all? I just enjoy watching football, without judging what certain players are as a person based on a 90 minute game. Oh, maybe I'm the arrogant here because of that.

Just a little throwback to the game Croatia-Portugal... those dives by Croatia's players... was Srna thinking he was on a football pitch or in a swimming pool? Oh, these details no one notices... how funny is that...

The real question is, how will Ronaldo take it once Iceland beat France and Poland beat Portugal, who's the smaller team there!?

 

[Touring Mars]

Personally I think the England team deserve an award...

 

[Highlandor]

Personally I think the England team deserve an award...

I'll second that and add:

Golden Raspberry Awards

• Worst Screen Combo: 1994 to present
• Worst Screenplay: 1980 to present
• Worst Director: 1980 to present
• Worst Picture: 1980 to present

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

Isn't obvious who the next England manager should be?

A part time dentist. Works for Iceland.

 

[Touring Mars]

Isn't obvious who the next England manager should be?

A part time dentist. Works for Iceland.

Well, England do have a job that needs filling.

 

[Highlandor]

Well, England do have a job that needs filling.

I'm sure that'll get to the root of the problem...

 

[Famine]

especially off the pitch and IMHO that does make, at least, some difference

Not really. People who hate football aren't bothered about the good things footballers do off the pitch, whether it's being a UNICEF ambassador or building schools in Africa or anything. They see clips of what happens on the pitch - footballers faking injury to get free kicks or get their opponents sent off, effing and blinding in referees' faces, chucking a huge wobbly because a player tackled you - and it's evidence for their hatred of the game. Then the bad things footballers do get into the news, from granny-banging to actual rape, and its confirmation of it - how many times have you heard someone opine that of course this uneducated, rich, spoiled idiot behaves this way, it's because he's a footballer?

And then football supporters forget all about the bad things on and off the pitch - Luis Suarez* biting three people and calling someone "blacky blacky black", for example - because he's a great player and that excuses all things, while non-football supporters look at us like we're mad, because this guy is clearly a sociopath who needs treatment and instead we give him millions of money and people shouting his name adoringly every week.


It's what these idiots do on the pitch that brings the game into disrepute. What they do off it is either ignored (if good) or confirmation (if bad).

As a football supporter, the players that make ordinary people feel this way disgust me.

*He's quite high on the list too

 

[Highlandor]

Not really. People who hate football aren't bothered about the good things footballers do off the pitch, whether it's being a UNICEF ambassador or building schools in Africa or anything. They see clips of what happens on the pitch - footballers faking injury to get free kicks or get their opponents sent off, effing and blinding in referees' faces, chucking a huge wobbly because a player tackled you - and it's evidence for their hatred of the game. Then the bad things footballers do get into the news, from granny-banging to actual rape, and its confirmation of it - how many times have you heard someone opine that of course this uneducated, rich, spoiled idiot behaves this way, it's because he's a footballer?

And then football supporters forget all about the bad things on and off the pitch - Luis Suarez* biting three people and calling someone "blacky blacky black", for example - because he's a great player and that excuses all things, while non-football supporters look at us like we're mad, because this guy is clearly a sociopath who needs treatment and instead we give him millions of money and people shouting his name adoringly every week.


It's what these idiots do on the pitch that brings the game into disrepute. What they do off it is either ignored (if good) or confirmation (if bad).

As a football supporter, the players that make ordinary people feel this way disgust me.

*He's quite high on the list too

I see your point now; re the player's who's on field antics contribute / made the negative stereotype that people outside of football so often have.

I didn't really understand it when you were just talking about Ronaldo, as personally I don't think he's as bad as many of the other 'big names', especially off the pitch...

But, I'll agree to agree now 👍

 

[Liquid]

Ronaldo's charity and actions off the pitch are completely separate from his terrible, terrible sportsmanship on the pitch.

I have never denied his talent but I've never liked him as a player because of how petulant, arrogant and whiny he is.

 

[Famine]

I didn't really understand it when you were just talking about Ronaldo, as personally I don't think he's as bad as many of the other 'big names', especially off the pitch...

I think I'd struggle to name three players of that kind of profile who were as bad on the pitch.

Suarez is. The mere concept that he's still playing football is baffling, let alone on £200k a week after a ~£55m transfer after the third bite (which he lied about too). Rooney was, for a very long time. These days he seems less rash and hotheaded - he's even toned down the referee screaming - though you do always get the sense that he might go in for a double-footed, studs-up lunge as revenge for a foul on him by the same player. Messi isn't (though his tax returns are, allegedly).

After that I'm just reaching into thin air. Joey Barton is awful but nowhere near the profile - and I've never been totally sure about the John Terry racism thing.

 

[dacc10]

That's odd. I don't see any mention of hating him in my post...

I just think he's an appalling, snide, cheap, cheating, self-entitled, arrogant, preening, childish player who personifies everything that people who hate football hate about football. His on the pitch antics are an embarrassment to the game, regardless of his talent.

Whether people agree with me or not doesn't concern me. I'm sure some will - I'm not uniquely gifted in having eyes - but that's their opinion, not mine.

So, a player who overreacts in certain situations is "the worst about football"? How many do the same or worst? How many cheat? How many have childish attitudes, like biting, or those don't count? If it isn't Ronaldo, everyone closes their eyes? C'mon, don't act like he is the worst player, attitude and personality wise, because he isn't lol. There are players who brake legs and act like nothing. There are players who spit on others faces. Oh, I get it, your "gift of having eyes" gives you the ability to judge Zidane when he head butted Materazzi, but doesn't give the ability for you to think about what caused that reaction.

Judging reactions is easy, judging the cause that made a certain person have said reaction isn't.

And yes, it becames hating when you focus on someone to criticize, when there are many others that have the exact same faults. It's hating when you spit 5 or 6 adjectives to describe someone, specially based on like 5 or 6 games you watched from him. It's hate when you mention and criticize the same person every single time, forgetting that football is a collective sport and that there are a lot other players.

I remember a player after an humiliating result against Iceland and a personally poor performance saying that Iceland has a small mentality, weren't trying to win, celebrated like they had won the tournament and would achieve nothing in the competition. He refused to shake hands after the match too, in a further display of terrible sportsmanship.

Now, what was his name again..?

Humiliating result? In a game that was completely dominated by us? We played better, we had more ball, we got unlucky most of the game and commited one mistake (Iceland goal). Is it humiliating? Atleast we played better than them... England did, well, nothing really and lost in the end of the 90 minutes. Who was trash talking after our draw? At the end of the day, it's funny to see a big team going home earlier, after that much trash talk from their supporters and journalists.

Funny how arguments change so quickly. Portugal draw with Iceland, was "humiliating", but when we played against Croatia, some say Portugal played in a disgusting way. Iceland played with 11 players behind the ball, no one mentions that, no one mentions the absolutely disgusting game they played, anti-football in the most pure state. Takedowns like in rugby against players who didn't even have the ball, loosing time every goalkick and every time the game stopped in their favor. "Sportmanship" right? Funny.

Oh, let's talk about sportmanship in the game against Croatia? How about a third of those fouls were dives from Croatia's players? Rakitic, Srna... Every time there was contact, was like they were shot... Oh, that was "sportmanship". Football "experts" watching football, but still don't know much about it. "Portugal did too much fouls" but fail to notice that atleast 1/3 of them were dives. If it was Ronaldo... start WW3 lol. See? See the difference? Where is everyone trash talking about Rakitic? Great player, but still dived like he was on a swimming pool, and no one mentions that.

The real question is, how will Ronaldo take it once Iceland beat France and Poland beat Portugal, who's the smaller team there!?

The question is, what does Ronaldo have to do with what happens between France and Iceland? I personally would love Iceland to go through, specially to shut up some of the French media that trash talked us for absolutely no reason, after their team almost draw against Romania... Why do you say Poland will beat Portugal? Do you hate us that much? Or is all that pure hate, not wanting Ronaldo to go through? Oh well, the other guy is the childish one, right?

his terrible, terrible sportsmanship on the pitch.

Sportsmanship... must be word of the day in this particular discussion... When other teams play, that word disappears magically. Football discussions are so funny this days.

Sorry for the excessively long post and for any orthographic error I made.

 

[Brend]

The question is, what does Ronaldo have to do with what happens between France and Iceland? I personally would love Iceland to go through, specially to shut up some of the French media that trash talked us for absolutely no reason, after their team almost draw against Romania... Why do you say Poland will beat Portugal? Do you hate us that much? Or is all that pure hate, not wanting Ronaldo to go through? Oh well, the other guy is the childish one, right?

Firstly, I think you're treating this way too seriously, I'm not trying to belittle your country in any way (hell, Scotland aren't even at the championships. ) but I was referring to Cristiano's comments about Iceland having a small nation mentality. All I was pointing out was it would be funny/ironic if Iceland somehow made it further than Portugal after those comments made in matchday 1.

FWIW, I think Portugal will beat Poland, I was merely theorizing for the sake of a little bit of banter.

 

[Famine]

So, a player who overreacts in certain situations is "the worst about football"?

That's funny, I can't see where I said Ronaldo is the worst in football either.

So now that's two things you're reacting to that haven't been said. Try reacting only to what has been said.

How many do the same or worst? How many cheat? How many have childish attitudes, like biting, or those don't count? If it isn't Ronaldo, everyone closes their eyes?

He's not alone in this regard

As a football supporter, the players that make ordinary people feel this way disgust me.

Luis Suarez* biting three people and calling someone "blacky blacky black", for example

Suarez is. The mere concept that he's still playing football is baffling, let alone on £200k a week after a ~£55m transfer after the third bite (which he lied about too). Rooney was, for a very long time. These days he seems less rash and hotheaded - he's even toned down the referee screaming - though you do always get the sense that he might go in for a double-footed, studs-up lunge as revenge for a foul on him by the same player.

Are you even reading things now, or just making up arguments in your head and pretending that's what's been said?

And yes, it becames hating when you focus on someone to criticize, when there are many others that have the exact same faults. It's hating when you spit 5 or 6 adjectives to describe someone, specially based on like 5 or 6 games you watched from him. It's hate when you mention and criticize the same person every single time, forgetting that football is a collective sport and that there are a lot other players.

No, it isn't. Here's a helping hand for you: I do not hate Cristiano Ronaldo and have never claimed to.

Now stop pretending that I did.

Humiliating result? In a game that was completely dominated by us? We played better, we had more ball, we got unlucky most of the game and commited one mistake (Iceland goal). Is it humiliating?

It was humiliating enough for Ronaldo to moan and whine about the opposition afterwards.

Who was trash talking after our draw?

Ronaldo. Look:

Iceland didn’t try anything. They were just defend, defend, defend and playing on the counterattack. It was a lucky night for them. We should have three points but we are OK. I thought they’d won the Euros the way they celebrated at the end. It was unbelievable. When they don’t try to play and just defend, defend, defend, this in my opinion shows a small mentality and they are not going to do anything in the competition.

 

[Highlandor]

I think I'd struggle to name three players of that kind of profile who were as bad on the pitch.

Suarez is. The mere concept that he's still playing football is baffling, let alone on £200k a week after a ~£55m transfer after the third bite (which he lied about too). Rooney was, for a very long time. These days he seems less rash and hotheaded - he's even toned down the referee screaming - though you do always get the sense that he might go in for a double-footed, studs-up lunge as revenge for a foul on him by the same player. Messi isn't (though his tax returns are, allegedly).

After that I'm just reaching into thin air. Joey Barton is awful but nowhere near the profile - and I've never been totally sure about the John Terry racism thing.

Yes, considering that Ronaldo has been consistently top / top 3 player in the world for a long time, I see your point re his profile.

I was being more general i.e. just professional players in most top leagues, and looking at people like Ronaldo's team mates like Benzima (off pitch), Marcello & Bepe (on pitch), Rooney, Terry (off pitch) etc etc..

I think there's a problem with football generally (which also helps to add to the negative stereotype), there's always 'another club' for these players to sign for.

The players have the 'power', they know their livelihood doesn't end with one club, plus the chances are there's always someone in the club who'll blindly support them, in some way - unless they do something really, really bad i.e. Suarez and his biting. But, even then, didn't his national coach or someone within the national team try to play it down (the Brazil world cup bite(?)).

It's rare for a player to get a world wide ban, it's normally a ban for a specific league / country I think; like when Barton went to abroad to play during one of his bans (I think, might be wrong there).