Update 2.10 - Major PP changes

[BrandonW77]

I think there are other factors like driver skill, tires and aids allowed, penalty use, tire wear level and damage. Room settings hugely affect the quality of the race.

I often host track days with occasional races in between track change, 400 to 600 PP cars on comfort medium, no ABS or other aids, penalty enabled, tire wear on ( fast ), and heavy damage. The usual track are Daytona Road Course, Monza, Suzuka, London Reverse, Madrid Mini, Spa, and a few others. These usually end in a quite close race between 3 or 4 drivers, most that would stay in my room anyway

I had one session in 2.10 recently, 3 other drivers were racing in a 450PP cars, 1 FR, 1 MR, 2 AWD and 1 FF. All of them finished the race within 3 seconds apart. The winner was an AWD car, the race was at Laguna Seca and tire wear was on fast.

I never hosted room with tires higher than comfort medium, the settings are always constant : no ABS with heavy damage + penalty and tire wear ( normal or fast ), so I don't really feel badly affected by the FR cars taking unfair advantage.

That's because you've inserted so many variables into the room that counteract the dominance of any one car. Extremely low grip tires, no ABS and heavy damage mean that small mistakes will result in a much greater penalty to all drivers regardless of their skill level or car selection. These factors will likely make it hard to spot one car dominating the field. I'm not saying your variables are a bad thing, I'm just saying they make it difficult to glean any real data regarding dominate cars. But that's also the lesson that everyone should learn; yes the new PP system is likely broken but there are plenty of ways to work around it. 👍

 

[maxpontiac]

That one of the cars that was already dominant before 2.10 is still dominant after 2.10 under at least one situation (in this case, a 550 PP race on crappy tires), so the criticisms about how heavily boosted FR cars are in other situations (most notably in 450pp and below from the results in this thread so far) aren't accurate?

I am not saying that Toronado. I am simply illustrating a point that the the FR car isn't the end all of GT5. The 450PP area could be dominated by the FR car and in that case, PDI needs to address it.

As we know the Time Trials are usually a case of one dominant car. Let's just say that GT5 features a 450PP time trial in the near future and the leaderboard is scattered with different drivetrains and models. A win, is it not?

In my opinon this debate will be answered via Time Trial results because it seems that the opinion is different depending on the individual. For example -

Last night I went into a 550PP room that was running on Top Gear Test Track. I saw 14 players using many different cars including Lambo's, Ferrari's, a Chevelle, an Audi, an R34 and R35. I personally drove the new Stingray but the races were mixed across the board. No one dominated. Again, this is just my personal experience and it's why I believe that we should wait on rushing to judgement until we spend some more time with the changes.

 

[ItsHim]

I happily say it again: look at the real world and all that balance of performance going on to make a race a spectacle for the viewers - or ensure everybody once wins in a while if its a gentleman driver dominated racing series.

So what's hardly working in the real world (Porsche with the smallest engine having to spend the most time refuelling due to fuel restrictor size for example) should work in a game where you can punch holes in the physics engine given you have enough spare time (many obviously have)?

People should come off the idea of any PP system working (they never do) and try to find a bunch of mates and concentrate on series racing or do shuffle races where everybody gets lucky - or not.

Random online races don't work "fair" no matter the PP system in place.

 

[machschnel]

they have to try and balance those cars the best they can.

Like I said, "best they can" isn't really good enough when seconds separate drivers. I know there are a lot of race series that try to balance different cars. Super GT uses ballast for faster cars and I still wouldn't say they have achieved full parity.

Of course you can. You could balance me and Usain Bolt in a 100m sprint if you created a good enough algorithim to determine how much he would have to be penalised to level the playing field.

In this example you are only balancing one thing - human skill. In GT5 you have to balance human skill and car type.

Look at iRacing, they balance by skill level, not car type and in my opinion it's the only "fair" way.

 

[XDesperado67]

The major problem with using PDs TT as a bench mark is that people see what the top drivers use and fill up the leader board with that car. Not taking anything away from those top 10 or 20 drivers, they have great skill and dedication, but they aren't always the most creative in their car choices. Often they will take a car that has proven tops in previous events and try using it for the latest TT without trying a wide variety of cars first. Until someone jumps up into the top ranks with a different car you see the majority of people following their lead. A while back there was a gravel TT and for the first few days the top drivers were all using 111Rs. It took the input of other players to get a couple of those top drivers to try other cars that proved much faster in that setting.

 

[maxpontiac]

The major problem with using PDs TT as a bench mark is that people see what the top drivers use and fill up the leader board with that car. Not taking anything away from those top 10 or 20 drivers, they have great skill and dedication, but they aren't always the most creative in their car choices. Often they will take a car that has proven tops in previous events and try using it for the latest TT without trying a wide variety of cars first. Until someone jumps up into the top ranks with a different car you see the majority of people following their lead. A while back there was a gravel TT and for the first few days the top drivers were all using 111Rs. It took the input of other players to get a couple of those top drivers to try other cars that proved much faster in that setting.

I see where you are coming from, but as I said, I went through about 10 pages of the leaderboards and all I saw was a type of GTR.

I brought this up because GTPlanet has some of the best virtual racers in the world so I more or less threw a challenge out. I don't have the skill to be a serious threat but I know there is people here who can.

I would love to see a FR car on the Time Trial leaderboards because all we really have is people giving their opinion based on experiences.

Anyways, we'll see soon enough as more and more TT's come out.

 

[Johnnypenso]

There is a 550 PP Time Trial going right now in the Seasonal Races.
If you look at the leaderboards, you will notice that the 4WD Nissan GTR dominates them. I personally went through 7-10 pages and saw nothing but one variant of the GTR.
Surely if the PP were set to favor the RWD layout someone out of the half a million GT5 players would storm the leaderboards in a RWD car.
Right?

There are always exceptions to the rule and this is one of them. At this HP level on this tight and twisty track, the traction advantage of 4wd combined with the GT-R superb handling overcomes HP advantage a RWD car might have. On a bigger track like Road Course Indy I suspect it would be the opposite.

This one isolated example is far outside the "norm" as far as 99% of GT5'ers are concerned. Not many of us have competitively raced 550PP on CS tires, even within the leagues. It's not a typical racing situation where grip would be incredibly elusive for all drivertrains but for 4WD.

In other words, for the vast majority of racing actually done on GT5, the PP system is still broken, just in a different direction. Throw out all the challenges you want there are still physics limits to the game, and putting 700+ HP to the ground with RWD is such a drastic limitation I don't think it's possible to challenge the 4wd domination.

 

[Jahgee]

The Pontiac Solstice Concept can now only reach around 480 PP, before a lightly modified one made 500 PP

 

[Samus]

Like I said, "best they can" isn't really good enough when seconds separate drivers. I know there are a lot of race series that try to balance different cars. Super GT uses ballast for faster cars and I still wouldn't say they have achieved full parity.

I don't really follow what you're saying here? We don't have to balance the drivers, only the cars. If driver A can take car A and car B and lap them both in 60 seconds but someone else can take the two cars and lap them both at 58 seconds that's fine, the PP system has done it's job. It just happens that one driver was faster than the other, what racing is all about.

In this example you are only balancing one thing - human skill. In GT5 you have to balance human skill and car type.

Look at iRacing, they balance by skill level, not car type and in my opinion it's the only "fair" way.

So you are saying the people need to be balanced. I don't agree at all, that's the whole point of racing. As long as the cars are balanced you have a fair race that all comes down to driving skill, rather than someone that is slower using a car much faster and beating someone faster in a slower car.

 

[maxpontiac]

..

There are always exceptions to the rule and this is one of them. At this HP level on this tight and twisty track, the traction advantage of 4wd combined with the GT-R superb handling overcomes HP advantage a RWD car might have. On a bigger track like Road Course Indy I suspect it would be the opposite.

I understand what you are saying, but for every track that favors a high powered car, we can find one that favors a 4WD setup. This is fine, and really should be to everyone.

This one isolated example is far outside the "norm" as far as 99% of GT5'ers are concerned. Not many of us have competitively raced 550PP on CS tires, even within the leagues. It's not a typical racing situation where grip would be incredibly elusive for all drivertrains but for 4WD.

I have never raced in a league before but does not what I said above apply here as well? It's all about the right car for the right track.

I would also like to state that 99% seems a bit high. If that was the case, GTPlanet would be exploding with with people being how 9 million copies have been sold. Plus, the camo'ed C7 had 500,000 downloads which is twice the registered users here.

This thread seems to only attract a very small percentage of people, and even so, the opinions are varied.

If you meant 99% in your world, please disregard my comment.

In other words, for the vast majority of racing actually done on GT5, the PP system is still broken, just in a different direction. Throw out all the challenges you want there are still physics limits to the game, and putting 700+ HP to the ground with RWD is such a drastic limitation I don't think it's possible to challenge the 4wd domination.

As I stated earlier, I agree that the PP system needs work. What I am saying is that PDI is at least attempting to fix it. I see this as a good thing because PDI is still putting effort into a 2 year old game.

As far as 700 BHP versus other go, that's another argument in itself.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I understand what you are saying, but for every track that favors a high powered car, we can find one that favors a 4WD setup. This is fine, and really should be to everyone.

I have never raced in a league before but does not what I said above apply here as well? It's all about the right car for the right track.

I would also like to state that 99% seems a bit high. If that was the case, GTPlanet would be exploding with with people being how 9 million copies have been sold. Plus, the camo'ed C7 had 500,000 downloads which is twice the registered users here.

This thread seems to only attract a very small percentage of people, and even so, the opinions are varied.

If you meant 99% in your world, please disregard my comment.



As I stated earlier, I agree that the PP system needs work. What I am saying is that PDI is at least attempting to fix it. I see this as a good thing because PDI is still putting effort into a 2 year old game.

As far as 700 BHP versus other go, that's another argument in itself.

Thanks for the response but let me clarify. The example of a 4wd car dominating in a 550PP event on CS tires is irrelevant as far as the PP system goes. There is no other drivetrain that can put that much power to the ground so effectively as a 4WD. The overwhelming factor in that TT is getting the power down. FR's could have 1000 hp and it wouldn't matter if you can't stop the wheels from spinning and can't press the accelerator if the car is even slightly off balance.

It's also true that the vast, vast majority of people don't race under the PP system or in any league, at 550PP on CS tires. The vast majority of Open Lobbies are on RS tires with a smattering on SH to SS tires and little else. One or two here or there yes, but that's not a lot out of millions of games sold.

So under the standard parameters that someone would drive a 550PP car, the FR's will still dominate completely, which indicates that PD did not do any testing of this update whatsover and in my opinion, it's a complete and utter failure on their part. All they had to do was tweak the PP levels of some of the hotter cars and it would have evened things up dramatically.

 

[GTlondoner]

This PP update patch is really confusing
Supra RZ and Fairlady Z 300zx gain more power but lose 25 pp and wont reach 550pp any more and they could bearly keep up to start with,

Then the SRT8 gains power still reaches 550pp and go's like a rocket with mustard up its
( you know what )

The M3 CSL gets more power and that was already fast enough for 550pp some would even argue it was to fast to start with,

Thought this was to make a fair balance not to make the fun hard to drive cars useless and make the OTT cars even more OTT

 

[Ghoa$t]

The PP system is garbage, trying to make sense of it all is just a waste of brain cells.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, this update does follow the general design direction of GT5 (although I disagree with it)

GT, in general, has always been about finding your own challenge. The game is presented to players as an easy to win experience as long as you possess the basic skills. In the single player experience, it's rare to find a true challenge. The player must create his own challenge by choosing cars that should not be competitive.

In my opinion, given that it is shortly after Christmas and so many new copies have been sold, it looks like what they have done is impose this design philosophy on the multiplayer experience. As the old saying goes, anyone can go fast in a straight line, so a bunch of cars have been created to achieve exactly that mission.

I saw someone comment how it was "crazy" that someone was under 7 minutes on the Nurb in a 500 room. But, veterans will attest, that a sub 7 minute time in a 500 room is achievable as long as you keep it on track.

Unless there is an overall decrease in online activity, I doubt that we will see much of a change in the PP system. The community has always been very good at policing themselves. Most communities do that. Right now, veteran players are experimenting with the changes and getting some incredible results. However, it won't be long before boredom will encroach and good players will revert to more challenging cars. I've already done it. I've found it more satisfying to finish on the podium with a car that shouldn't win, than to win with a car that should destroy the competition.

At the end of the day, it's about entertainment because no one is paying me for wins.

 

[Z1-AV69]

I saw someone comment how it was "crazy" that someone was under 7 minutes on the Nurb in a 500 room. But, veterans will attest, that a sub 7 minute time in a 500 room is achievable as long as you keep it on track.

I stumbled about that comment too and I agree that time wasn't so unusual. But I can assure you a time of 7.55 at Nürburgring 24h in a 550 room is 10+ sec better than anything you would have seen there before. And this was on the first day of the patch, no weeks of tweaking the setup involved.

Unless there is an overall decrease in online activity, I doubt that we will see much of a change in the PP system. The community has always been very good at policing themselves. Most communities do that. Right now, veteran players are experimenting with the changes and getting some incredible results. However, it won't be long before boredom will encroach and good players will revert to more challenging cars. I've already done it. I've found it more satisfying to finish on the podium with a car that shouldn't win, than to win with a car that should destroy the competition.

At the end of the day, it's about entertainment because no one is paying me for wins.

You're right. But for me the best working solution so far is to ban all FR-cars from the room. This can't be it?

 

[NjLowrider]

I think that if you want to work an overpowered car through the twisties, be my guest.. If you get the win, good for you. It's not very easy.

Most good drivers in good handling cars can catch them in the turns. While they're spinning and fishtailing around the track.

This is with clean drivers.

Ill admit these new overpowered cars bring out the noobs that just want to have the most hp in the room.

I'm questioning the ruf 3400? Or Mercedes evolution?? These were capable cars before... Now they are supercars!

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'm questioning the ruf 3400? Or Mercedes evolution?? These were capable cars before... Now they are supercars!

Yep, they are. The saving grace is that they take a little work to get them there so a newb won't be able to exploit them.

I had a RUF only room going the other day. I set the PP limit to 565 and it was a good time. RGTs, 3400's, CTR's. It was all good fun. This is the indication of the only real answer. If you open up a room, you will have to police the participants in order to keep it fun. It's a hassle but it seems like the only real answer and not much different than it has always been.

In my opinion, especially given the uproar, this patch has gone too far and it would be in the best interest of the franchise to issue another patch to address the issues. I doubt that it is helping to grow the user base that much. Then again, I have no data to back up that opinion.

 

[Mulan]

Even in F1 there are dominant cars even though they have all kind of regulations for everything.

There might be the possibility that PD wants to seperate drivetrains. It can make sense.
And actually, have to agree with a previous post...even races = same car but allowed to be tuned.

A conspirationtheory:

Manufactorers that are willing to pay will get their car as a dominant car.

 

[MrWednesday]

I think that if you want to work an overpowered car through the twisties, be my guest.. If you get the win, good for you. It's not very easy.

That may be a workable solution at higher PP, depending on tires, but I think I adequately demonstrated that it won't work at middle-lower PP.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

This new PP change sucks. It is complete garbage, now everyone is going to cheat.

 

[Zuel]

I see everyone is still stating or thinks the system is garbage or sucks. ( Fine and good) Though I have one question for all of you. Who has been removing parts from your old cars that were build under the 2.06 patch to the 2.09 patch just to meet some of the class of a PP number? I have already found out a good amount of information from non-members of this form from race lobbies, now I want to hear from you. How many parts did you have to remove from your favorite cars just to meet class?

 

[TokoTurismo]

At least I'm not so steamed over about the PP change like everyone else are, cus I "sold" all my cars and started rebuying them again. Haha.

 

[Zuel]

At least I'm not so steamed over about the PP change like everyone else are, cus I "sold" all my cars and started rebuying them again. Haha.

👍 Let me know what you think of your new cars once you have broken them in fully.

 

[TokoTurismo]

👍 Let me know what you think of your new cars once you have broken them in fully.

Alright. I'm going to first buy all of the cars I've sold and do my very best to tune of all of them to match them with each car I've purchased in a catain PP class. The premiums of course, haha. 👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

I see everyone is still stating or thinks the system is garbage or sucks. ( Fine and good) Though I have one question for all of you. Who has been removing parts from your old cars that were build under the 2.06 patch to the 2.09 patch just to meet some of the class of a PP number? I have already found out a good amount of information from non-members of this form from race lobbies, now I want to hear from you. How many parts did you have to remove from your favorite cars just to meet class?

Dude, honestly, some of your questions are so obtuse and obscure they have no meaning. If you have some theory or other to prove around here, take it to the tuning forum, make your own thread, build a couple of cars, run some laps, show your results, prove your point on the track. Talk is cheap.

And yea, the new system sucks.

 

[Zuel]

Dude, honestly, some of your questions are so obtuse and obscure they have no meaning. If you have some theory or other to prove around here, take it to the tuning forum, make your own thread, build a couple of cars, run some laps, show your results, prove your point on the track. Talk is cheap.

And yea, the new system sucks.

Please man, give it up. You can't answer question?? Are you that dull that you can't even answer a simple question. I already in the middle of my report and results, already proved it on the track. I have already beaten many of drivers in stage 1 and stage 2 cars. If you can't answer my question then don't return a flipping comment to me.

Another thing the system WORKS!!
You bloody noob..

 

[XDesperado67]

@Zuel calling some of the best tuners around here names isn't a good way to get people to try and understand whatever point your trying to make.

As for your question I've actually had to add parts or reduce the amount of power limiter used on several cars to bring them inline with the new lower PP class.

Example my Altezza TC which was a top 500PP race car before V2.10 had the power limiter raised from 94.4% to 98.1% at 450PP. This gave it an extra 10HP and means it's now faster at 450PP than it was at 500PP.

 

[Zuel]

Here’s a short brief for you.

As some of you know that the 525 class has been seeing a lot of the Aston Martin Vanquish ’04 on the track. I asked every driver of this car what they had on it. All stated a stage 3 motor and had to take of part to get it in the 525 class. Some of them only had the sport exhaust installed to make it in class running at 100% power which mad the car around 620 hp. Now I build the same car with a stage one motor and I got 615 hp.. The car has 2,713.7 miles on it so there’s no need to break in. Here is what I would call a build sheet.

Aston Martin Vanquish ’04 1835kg (2,713.7ml) Base (482hp/7000rpm) 419ft-lb/5500 rpm) (457pp)

Window weight reduction 1835kg/1825kg (457pp)

Stage 1 weight reduction 1825kg/1641kg (466pp)

Stage 2 weight reduction 1641kg/1494kg (473pp)

Stage 3 weight reduction 14954kg/1384kg (479pp)

ECU 482hp/505hp (485pp)

Stage 1 motor 505hp/523hp (489pp)

Sport Intake Manifold 523hp/533hp (492pp)

Racing Air Filter 533hp/549hp (496pp)

Sport Exhaust Manifold 549hp/560hp (498pp)

Catalytic Convertor: Sport 560hp/572hp (501pp)

Titanium Racing Exhaust 572hp/615hp (510pp)

Final numbers 615hp/7400rpm 485ft-lb/6200rpm (510pp)

Now with this build I was able to outpace every car that was de-tuned to meet class besides one which I found out was running a super charger.

@Zuel calling some of the best tuners around here names isn't a good way to get people to try and understand whatever point your trying to make.

As for your question I've actually had to add parts or reduce the amount of power limiter used on several cars to bring them inline with the new lower PP class.

Example my Altezza TC which was a top 500PP race car before V2.10 had the power limiter raised from 94.4% to 98.1% at 450PP. This gave it an extra 10HP and means it's now faster at 450PP than it was at 500PP.

I understand that but if if was one of our best then why isn't he trying the new system with a freshly build car bought and build after the 2.10 update? And I ask you.. What do you have installed on the motor? Like a tried so many times to get across to all of you. Before you go on saying something is broke test it. And how are you going to TEST something right with cars that haven't been fully broken in and is a new car. The test results that I have read so far have two things in common. First 2.06/2.09 cars were tested at a de-tuned state against the new pp system. Second stock cars were tested from show room,(NEW or Sitting in the garage) with barely any miles on them. So how can you get a true test result with out fully breaking in the car? We all know that when we put miles on the car the motor get stronger along with the frame on the car.

So are any of these test any good? As a real world driver and previous test driver for Dessert Rat Racing, I know what I'm speaking about.

 

[Samus]

Oh, you're back with the same babble.

I understand that but if if was one of our best then why isn't he trying the new system with a freshly build car bought and build after the 2.10 update?

Toronado has already shown you that people have built cars after the update and they have the same PP as cars built the same before the update.

And I ask you.. What do you have installed on the motor? Like a tried so many times to get across to all of you. Before you go on saying something is broke test it.

..and like we have said so many times, if you can't install the higher level engine mods then it's broken.

 

[Zuel]

@SimonK
The only person that stated they bought new cars was Hamilton and one other no one else.