Update 2.10 - Major PP changes

[Steph290]

Just from the first few responses, some of your outlooks are still the same. I gave you my best theory, the best mathematical, physical theory. All the facts are there, you all have been yelling about it all the whole time. FR car are crazy fast now, 4WD are in the middle and FF drive cars are the bottom. Yes I know a lot of cars didn't change in number. Though if these formulas are being used in a simplified form then yes not all of the cars will change, it’s a given.

You are clearly lost or the greatest troll to hit GTP forums. This is your best mathematical theory? Saying that a new formula (simplified or complicated) applied to the entire set of drivetrains doesn't have an effect on all is mathematically impossible. Dude learn about functions. You can't have a new function applied to a variable and end up with the same results as the previous function, unless either both functions are the same or the variable is zero. Which in this case is neither because pp numbers did in fact change and you yourself agree with us that it is a new system. It was not applied to FWD cars because their numbers remain the same. Then the power point system as a whole is incomplete and therefore uneven.

You said that you would test multiple cars, 50 to be exact, but I would accept 10 from you. One track isn't much of a test. What you did above is search your garage for two cars from the same manufacturer with similar(not the same pp) that performed close enough on one select course. You shouldn't make your attempts to prove yourself right so obvious. Add another set of cars at random with same pp to that same test and show your results as you did above and we'll hear you out, otherwise keep your theories to yourself until you can properly and fairly prove them. You're wasting everyone's time Zuel

 

[Mulan]

Well, fun reading..
I still dont get the real answers. Why is PP so complicated?
If you set a system like that its easy.
1hp = 1PP
1kg= -1PP
Downforce - 20pp + 0,5pp/number you change
FR - +20pp
FF - 0pp
4WD - 15pp

Numbers and what is included are just an example. But even if you do simple stuff like this some cars will still be dominant. That is the way it is in real world too. Some cars are faster some are safer. BUT PD could focus on fixing/adding other stuff that actually will help online gaming. More options for onlinefilters, playerskills would be one of them. Perhaps even car category like sportcar, familycar and so on.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sorry, I don't know you

sorry I couldn't resist with that name

You don't know jackschitt?

Well, fun reading..
I still dont get the real answers. Why is PP so complicated?
If you set a system like that its easy.
1hp = 1PP
1kg= -1PP
Downforce - 20pp + 0,5pp/number you change
FR - +20pp
FF - 0pp
4WD - 15pp

Numbers and what is included are just an example. But even if you do simple stuff like this some cars will still be dominant. That is the way it is in real world too. Some cars are faster some are safer. BUT PD could focus on fixing/adding other stuff that actually will help online gaming. More options for onlinefilters, playerskills would be one of them. Perhaps even car category like sportcar, familycar and so on.

In order for PP to work or come close to working it has to accomodate a large number of variables, including HP, weight, power curve, handling, transmission etc. I think it's too big of a task to be accurately done over such a wide range of cars and tracks and that's why it doesn't work as well as it could. I think you hit the nail on the head though, I believe the answer is in setting PP levels based on groups of cars in reasonable PP ranges. PD, possibly the worst communicating corporation in the entire world should come up with a system that works like this:

Category - Mid Level Supercars (list of cars available online perhaps 50 in total)
PP Level - 520-575
Tires - Sports Hard
Tuning - Stock
ABS - 1, all other aids off.
Test Tracks - Trial Mountain, Monza

All cars in this category should be within 1.0 seconds of each other, combined, at both tracks, within the given PP range.

etc...

 

[eran0004]

The changes in performance points is not a general FR boost, if it was it would be the same for all FR's, which it isn't. Big, heavy cars (which are almost all FR drive) seems to have got a performance point drop, while small FR cars did not get the same performance point drop. So my guess is that it has more to do with engine size and weight than actual drivetrain (although most of the heavy, powerful cars are FR drive). I haven't done much testing though, but so far it's the impression that I have.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

It seems to me that torque is not punished nearly as much as it used to be.

Whether it's a placebo effect or not, I think weight distribution and it's affect on longitudinal grip is more sensitive to PP measuements than it was before too. Adding 200KG of ballast to the rear of some powerful cars sometimes doesn't reduce the PP at all, as despite the extra weight, you are adding more grip to the rear wheels. I know you could get that effect before, but it seems more noticable to me.

 

[CorvetteConquer]

The changes in performance points is not a general FR boost, if it was it would be the same for all FR's, which it isn't. Big, heavy cars (which are almost all FR drive) seems to have got a performance point drop, while small FR cars did not get the same performance point drop. So my guess is that it has more to do with engine size and weight than actual drivetrain (although most of the heavy, powerful cars are FR drive). I haven't done much testing though, but so far it's the impression that I have.

You ain't kidding! The SRT8 Challenger went from 489pp to a mere 433 (ish?). That's incredible. The DB9 dropped quite a bit too, along with the XK-R. How about the JR Rocha G37? That's now at 510pp while it used to be about 550.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

The changes in performance points is not a general FR boost, if it was it would be the same for all FR's, which it isn't. Big, heavy cars (which are almost all FR drive) seems to have got a performance point drop, while small FR cars did not get the same performance point drop. So my guess is that it has more to do with engine size and weight than actual drivetrain (although most of the heavy, powerful cars are FR drive). I haven't done much testing though, but so far it's the impression that I have.

The Bellet 1.6L, the '83 ea86 cars 1.6L, the Toyota 2000gt 2L and many other small FR cars got a big boost as well.

Many of the old Japanese classics I had tuned for 425pp won't even get to 400pp now.

 

[XDesperado67]

The Bellet 1.6L, the '83 ea86 cars 1.6L, the Toyota 2000gt 2L and many other small FR cars got a big boost as well.

Many of the old Japanese classics I had tuned for 425pp won't even get to 400pp now.

Your right there are plenty of lightweight FRs that got big PP drops and also many heavy ones that saw little or no drop in PP.
How and why cars PP got changed doesn't seem to follow any set pattern which makes things worse.

Example the Camaro Z28 '69 which was already the best performing of the premium classic pony cars has the least weight and smallest engine yet lost over 50PP. The Mach 1 which was in the middle of the three in performance weight and engine size lost 30PP while the Challenger R/T '70 the largest and poorest performing only lost 7PP. You now have nearly 90PP difference between the base PP of the Camaro and that of the Challenger. In real life these cars had fairly similar performance so their PP ratings should be very close instead of the monster gap they have now.

 

[Zuel]

How am I wasting your time, Hamilton or Steph or anyone whom reads this thread, I'm not forcing you to do anything. You are reading and it up to you top decided on what YOU want to don not I or anyone else. I think I gave a valid reason to the changes and for anyone who is a engineer or car builder know what I'm talking about. For the one that don't I suggest you do some research, if you know your math it's not hard to simplify a formula for use in a software. All you need are the key algorithm that processes that formula. I would love to find the find algorithm and break it done so some of you may better understand but I'm not due to I DON’T WANT TO BE WASTING ANYONES TIME..

But what I will do is start my own tuning thread in the tuner form, the thread will be titled “JTM SKUNKS WORKS LTM” I will be sharing my entire test, race and qualifying tunes for these areas. (Street Car) Suspension, Motor Stages, Air, Exhaust, Weight Stages, transmission and diff numbers will be kept private. (Race Car) Suspension and Aero, Transmission and diff numbers will be kept private.

This is my final post in this thread which I know some or even not all of you will enjoy very much. We all can discuss the matter as we see fit, everyone has their own opinions and thought and solutions. Some of us may keep doing the same thing as we always have, some may not. At the end we have to deal with the change in the Performance Points System, how we deal with it from here on out is interlay on us. Will our decision make our time on the track better and more enjoyable or will it the same? For those of you that may have any questions you can PM or find me on the track.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

So Zuel is setting up a tuning garage and keeping his tunes private.

Someone tell praiano63 that he is doing it wrong.

 

[XDesperado67]

Man I've been doing it wrong all this time? You mean my tuning garage isn't supposed to tell anyone what the actual tune I've used for a car is?:

 

[Steph290]

So instead of using cars that have actually been affected by the 2.10 update, he turns tail and "makes another thread". Like we all didn't see that coming? He couldn't have used an Evo vs a 350z at same pp in his experiment to prove us that the system is not broken ? Nice Zuel, have fun in your private lobbies.

 

[kp101]

You are clearly lost or the greatest troll to hit GTP forums.


Zuel either you are a troll. A very dedicated troll. Or you are the most ignorant mofo in this forum.

The reason that pp exists is to simulate class racing. If you allow cars with such huge differences in power to weight ratios to race in the same class, IT WILL NOT BE A FAIR RACE.
Stop trying to justify this obvious flaw by using bad examples or telling ppl that they are not tuning the car properly. IT DOESN'T 🤬 MATTER!!! All tunning is fair when racing in a room with a set pp and unrestricted tires. The reasons that the M3, NSX, Evora, etc were the best was because when compared to other cars of the same class, THEY ARE BETTER CARS!!!
PD Either 🤬 up or they are not finished. End of story.
There are new "best" cars in all pp now, we all know this. Stop confusing the n00bs and shut the 🤬 up.

 

[Johnnypenso]

.....
But what I will do is start my own tuning thread in the tuner form, the thread will be titled “JTM SKUNKS WORKS LTM” I will be sharing my entire test, race and qualifying tunes for these areas. (Street Car) Suspension, Motor Stages, Air, Exhaust, Weight Stages, transmission and diff numbers will be kept private. (Race Car) Suspension and Aero, Transmission and diff numbers will be kept private.....

I can just see it now...

Mazda RX8 Type S 07'

GT Auto
Henkel EX12 Wheels
Pink Pony Paint

Rest of Tune
You'll have to figure it out on your own...

Man I've been doing it wrong all this time? You mean my tuning garage isn't supposed to tell anyone what the actual tune I've used for a car is?:

You've got a lot of deleting to do Des, get busy...

 

[Johnnypenso]

Oops...

 

[XDesperado67]

Oops...

Can't be bothered, besides to many people already know my secrets!

You did a mistake though...
Rest of tune
Read my incomprehensible thread with chart about how to properly upgrade car and then figure it out on your own.

PS: Johnny if you have a few minutes give the green 450PP monster I just put on share a run round the Ring. Not the fastest I'm sure but man what a drive.

 

[Mulan]

You don't know jackschitt?




In order for PP to work or come close to working it has to accomodate a large number of variables, including HP, weight, power curve, handling, transmission etc. I think it's too big of a task to be accurately done over such a wide range of cars and tracks and that's why it doesn't work as well as it could. I think you hit the nail on the head though, I believe the answer is in setting PP levels based on groups of cars in reasonable PP ranges. PD, possibly the worst communicating corporation in the entire world should come up with a system that works like this:

Category - Mid Level Supercars (list of cars available online perhaps 50 in total)
PP Level - 520-575
Tires - Sports Hard
Tuning - Stock
ABS - 1, all other aids off.
Test Tracks - Trial Mountain, Monza

All cars in this category should be within 1.0 seconds of each other, combined, at both tracks, within the given PP range.

etc...

Sure, there can be many variables and some even hidden. But true to what you say, id like the online rooms beeing setup as seasonals. Supercars challenge (or Musclecars or..)...up to 500PP allowed, sportshard, FR only, following cars allowed...and here you could choose a category in which a set of cars are put in according to what you say. Allowing PP without carcategory is a failure. And if not category then at least some kind of class that the cars are put in and then put on a PP restriction.

 

[NSXDriver]

every PP regulated room is in turn a ringer room post 2.10, sucks having to find one with proper regs.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Can't be bothered, besides to many people already know my secrets!

You did a mistake though...
Rest of tune
Read my incomprehensible thread with chart about how to properly upgrade car and then figure it out on your own.

PS: Johnny if you have a few minutes give the green 450PP monster I just put on share a run round the Ring. Not the fastest I'm sure but man what a drive.

Keep 2 things in mind. One, I haven't driven the 'Ring in over a month so I'm rusty. Two, I'm surrounded by drunken idiots who just had a 15 minute argument over whether the Super Bowl is tomorrow or next week I'm only a partially drunken idiot so I didn't take part in the discussion

I drove it 3 laps without looking at the tune at all because I don't want to be influenced by how I think the car is going to drive. Laps were:

7:44 <<<rust
7:42 <<<cobwebs
7:41<<<starting to feel it

It's very planted and easy to drive but too planted I believe for the 'Ring to get the most out of it. Pushing in the many criticial high speed sweeping corners was the biggest problem. Usually that's a toe issue so when I looked at the tune it became obvious. I changed the toe to 0/0 and LSD to 5/15/5 and it felt much better, especially on the high speed sweepers. Little looser on entry but very manageable and much easier to rotate. Did 3 more laps:

7:40
7:39
7:38<<<still not my best but getting there

I'd also suggest building another one beside it, taking off the wing, engine stage 2, adding HP and stiffening up the rear suspension to compensate for the lost wing. It's possible this car could be in the 36's without the wing. Not sure what the other cars will be like in the competition but it should be in the mix I would think.

I worked for hours on an RX8 before the update to get it to beat Praiano's time in the Elise, and got it by 0.2 seconds then the update came out. That was 7:45 and now it's beat by this tank after the update by 7 seconds!!!

Good job:tup:👍

 

[Lion-Face]

I don't have an issue with the PP changes. After having a few races over the past week at various PP levels, the change has brought more variety and more competition throughout. Had some great races against multiple different cars racing hard for laps on end, which would have never happened previously.

A race for example, 530pp, I raced an F40 at Nurburgring GP/D. Before 2.10 the field would have been full of NSX/BMW variants most likely. Last night it was a Saleen S7, some American Muscle car which I forget the name, a BMW M3 and an NSX '02, and it was competitive, great racing, and I am looking forward to more.

 

[XDesperado67]

Keep 2 things in mind. One, I haven't driven the 'Ring in over a month so I'm rusty. Two, I'm surrounded by drunken idiots who just had a 15 minute argument over whether the Super Bowl is tomorrow or next week I'm only a partially drunken idiot so I didn't take part in the discussion

I drove it 3 laps without looking at the tune at all because I don't want to be influenced by how I think the car is going to drive. Laps were:

7:44 <<<rust
7:42 <<<cobwebs
7:41<<<starting to feel it

It's very planted and easy to drive but too planted I believe for the 'Ring to get the most out of it. Pushing in the many criticial high speed sweeping corners was the biggest problem. Usually that's a toe issue so when I looked at the tune it became obvious. I changed the toe to 0/0 and LSD to 5/15/5 and it felt much better, especially on the high speed sweepers. Little looser on entry but very manageable and much easier to rotate. Did 3 more laps:

7:40
7:39
7:38<<<still not my best but getting there

I'd also suggest building another one beside it, taking off the wing, engine stage 2, adding HP and stiffening up the rear suspension to compensate for the lost wing. It's possible this car could be in the 36's without the wing. Not sure what the other cars will be like in the competition but it should be in the mix I would think.

I worked for hours on an RX8 before the update to get it to beat Praiano's time in the Elise, and got it by 0.2 seconds then the update came out. That was 7:45 and now it's beat by this tank after the update by 7 seconds!!!

Good job:tup:👍

Don't know if you remember but that is the same truck that was chasing you and the rest of the crowd in the F.I.T.T. Autumn roadster shootout. Thanks to V2.10 I'm fairly confident that it would now smoke your S2K on Autumn Ring where we tested for that event.

Oh and that's not my entry for the current F.I.T.T. Nordschleife shootout...got a car that I've gone over 4 seconds faster with that I'm leaning towards and another that might be even quicker if I can get it to keep the rear in check and go around corners.

Oh and thanks for the run...had a feeling it might be a touch to planted.👍👍

In case anyone's interested here is a link to the F.I.T.T. thread in the tuning forum
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=219091

Around a year and a half ago we had a tuning shootout featuring 450PP 2 door, 2 seat convertibles on SM tires. There was something like 18 entries and slightly over half of those were S2Ks and Miatas. Being Crazy I entered a Chevrolet SSR truck which all things considered did surprisingly well, while Johnnypenso entered a great S2K which was the test drivers favorite and missed getting the top spot by less than .04 seconds. My SSR was roughly 1.5 seconds slower around Autumn Ring.

Now as Johnny stated above he chose to use an RX-8 to set his best lap time for 450PP around Nurburgring Nordschleife using SH tires prior to V2.10. Now after that update using my SSR that was tuned back up to 450PP after the update he took 7 seconds off his best time there and the truck can go even faster if tuned to match his style.

Shows the problem with this update when an 1870KG truck can beat a finely tuned sports car around the ring by that much.

 

[infamousphil]

But what I will do is start my own tuning thread in the tuner form, the thread will be titled “JTM SKUNKS WORKS LTM” I will be sharing my entire test, race and qualifying tunes for these areas. (Street Car) Suspension, Motor Stages, Air, Exhaust, Weight Stages, transmission and diff numbers will be kept private. (Race Car) Suspension and Aero, Transmission and diff numbers will be kept private.

Ok Zuel...

As a former aircraft technician and electronics engineer, your SR-71 R&D theory and it's technological evolution into 21st century automotive engineering is plausible. However, it is overkill when applied to how PD decides to "program" their cars to perform. That's my short and sweet of your post and plenty of other opinions have already been written, so I'll leave it at that.

Now, when I said "program" earlier, that's what I mean... PROGRAM. PD, like every other 'racing simulation' producer, programs each vehicle the way they "want" it to perform.

Sure they test some cars, but all cars? I don't believe that for a NewYork minute. Here's one test I do to test PD's performance characteristics against reality...

I refer to RoadandTrack.com, CarandDriver.com and MotorTrend.com. These guys have been crunching the performance numbers of automobili for decades, pretty much the same way with similar technical assistance. Know what I find?...

Since 1994, PolyphonyDigital has been BSing it's patronage!!! And I don't care. It's just a game for guys like me who like to drive the cars of our wildest dreams. And with GT5 we get to drive them competitively, internationally.

No. I don't think you're full of ****, Zuel. I think you're as passionate as I am. However, the PP system never worked for me. I've always organized my garages by pwr/wgt and drivetrain/layout.

If I see a car standing out in a P/W class, like an LFA, I just chalk it up as "new tech". But when I see (or hear) that an older, more "established" platform, like the Mustang, gets some new found performance...well, that's probably PD playing a gods' role in it's own universe. And I don't care.

Better yet... see you at the track, Zuel!!!

 

[Lion-Face]

Now as Johnny stated above he chose to use an RX-8 to set his best lap time for 450PP around Nurburgring Nordschleife using SH tires prior to V2.10. Now after that update using my SSR that was tuned back up to 450PP after the update he took 7 seconds off his best time there and the truck can go even faster if tuned to match his style.

Shows the problem with this update when an 1870KG truck can beat a finely tuned sports car around the ring by that much.

Have you retested the rx8 around the 'ring after 2.10? What time has been acheived with it?

From your story there, it isn't really 1:1 testing, just a therabouts with similar specced (pp wise) cars in a story that heavily favours your point of view.

 

[XDesperado67]

Have you retested the rx8 around the 'ring after 2.10? What time has been acheived with it?

From your story there, it isn't really 1:1 testing, just a therabouts with similar specced (pp wise) cars in a story that heavily favours your point of view.

No I haven't tested an RX-8, but if you look at post #307 of this thread you'll see the change in PP for many cars. The RX-8s only went down 6 or 7PP, the S2Ks had about the same reduction. Meanwhile the SSR dropped by 48.

Now a 15-20PP change would have most likely been enough to equalize the SSR with the other 2 making for very close races but instead with that much extra PP to play with the S2Ks and RX-8s just can't keep up.

 

[dazdilly75]

Zuel one thing you'll find around here is people like to trash opinion which differs from theirs. Take desperado for instance. Who claimed my suggestion of weight distribution not playing a part in the revamped pp system. Called it trash but when asked to come up with something.... No reply. These are the kinds of people your trying to convince. My advice, if you have suggestions or things which you think might help the community keep it to yourself because you just get a barrage of abuse like you are now. Let the closed minds stay closed. Yet there are claims that the new pp system does not work. IMO anyone who depends on using the power limiter to get their car to reach certain pp levels does not know how to tune.

 

[dazdilly75]

Theorise all day I get **** done.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Zuel one thing you'll find around here is people like to trash opinion which differs from theirs. Take desperado for instance. Who claimed my suggestion of weight distribution not playing a part in the revamped pp system. Called it trash but when asked to come up with something.... No reply. These are the kinds of people your trying to convince. My advice, if you have suggestions or things which you think might help the community keep it to yourself because you just get a barrage of abuse like you are now. Let the closed minds stay closed. Yet there are claims that the new pp system does not work. IMO anyone who depends on using the power limiter to get their car to reach certain pp levels does not know how to tune.

The power limiter has absolutely zero to do with the new PP system and it supposedly being broken. It is broken whether you use the power limiter or not. How is this close minded, when it has been proven again and again. The only people I see being closed minded are the one's that protest in favour of the new PP system and who are ignoring the facts presented throughout this entire thread.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Zuel one thing you'll find around here is people like to trash opinion which differs from theirs. Take desperado for instance. Who claimed my suggestion of weight distribution not playing a part in the revamped pp system. Called it trash but when asked to come up with something.... No reply. These are the kinds of people your trying to convince. My advice, if you have suggestions or things which you think might help the community keep it to yourself because you just get a barrage of abuse like you are now. Let the closed minds stay closed. Yet there are claims that the new pp system does not work. IMO anyone who depends on using the power limiter to get their car to reach certain pp levels does not know how to tune.

Looks like you just got called out Des...lol. Everyone was quite reasonable and patient with Zuel but when it became obvious after dozens of responses back and forth that he wasn't making any sense and wasn't listening to anyone, well this is what inevitably happens. People logically laid out their case for Zuel in great detail and he ignored them for the most part. If you are going to put a theory out there you're going to be asked to explain it and prove it and Zuel did neither. Zuel's answer is, "you prove it", and when he was referred to charts and tables and facts and figures he just ignored them.

 

[dazdilly75]

The facts are the game has changed if you like it or not. Those that are able to adapt will do so. Those that are unable to adapt will complain constantly. If people actually Ran SH to SS tyre rooms you would soon find that more horsepower does not always equal the fastest car. There are a lot of RS tyre racers complaining because they can't dominate in their Elise, Nsx or Csl anymore. I'll shed a tear for you as i pass you in my XFR jag.

 

[Tornado]

Zuel one thing you'll find around here is people like to trash opinion which differs from theirs. Take desperado for instance. Who claimed my suggestion of weight distribution not playing a part in the revamped pp system. Called it trash but when asked to come up with something.... No reply. These are the kinds of people your trying to convince. My advice, if you have suggestions or things which you think might help the community keep it to yourself because you just get a barrage of abuse like you are now. Let the closed minds stay closed. Yet there are claims that the new pp system does not work. IMO anyone who depends on using the power limiter to get their car to reach certain pp levels does not know how to tune.

Zuel repeating incorrect statements (in some cases very obviously so) or bringing up information that has nothing to do with his point but using it as proof page after page after page and going out of his way to ignore the problems people point out with what he keeps saying doesn't suddenly become "You were all marginalizing him just because he was saying something different" simply because you also weren't paying attention to what people in the thread have been saying.

The facts are the game has changed if you like it or not. Those that are able to adapt will do so. Those that are unable to adapt will complain constantly.

Ah. The "You'll just have to deal with it and stop complaining" rebuttal. From what I've seen, adapting at this point seems to be banning FR cars from low PP rooms. Is that the kind of adaptation that you want to see this late in GT5's life?

If people actually Ran SH to SS tyre rooms you would soon find that more horsepower does not always equal the fastest car. There are a lot of RS tyre racers complaining because they can't dominate in their Elise, Nsx or Csl anymore. I'll shed a tear for you as i pass you in my XFR jag.

As if it wasn't clear already that you haven't been following the thread closely enough to comment. You are at least aware that for cars with low enough PP, an FR car that handled well and could hold its own against MR and AWD cars before the update is now going to be a lot faster at that PP, right? And that you don't have to be using RS tires to realize it?