YSSMAN, your Toyota-bashing is way out of line. How can you bash their recent reliability decline when they've DOMINATED the competition in JD Power $ Associates Initial Quality test for the past 7+ years? Toy/Lex was #1 in the highly-appraised test for 7 years straight until JDP&A decided to change their testing parameters for 2006, which resulted in Porsche being #1, beating 2nd place Toyota by 2 points (IIRC), but not without noting that the same testing methods as all previous years would have left Toyota on top. The quality on their new products is TOP NOTCH.
Have we met before? My Toyota-bashing is nothing new. Unless I'm completely mistaken, I'm not the only person that has noticed the drop in quality on the newer Toyotas. The new Camry I found to be rather disappointing, especially when compared to my Mom's '95 Camry... It seems they knew how to build cars better more than 10 years ago...
However, your argument here appears to be that if Toyota has dominated for the last 10 years, they should continue to do the same for infinity, which simply isn't true. Obviously JDP saw the need to change the rules, and certainly did it with reason, so we are going to complain that Toyota didn't have the top spot? Thats rubbish, and you know it. I could really care less if they were on the top or not with Lexus, as I often cite that the top-five also includes several Americans as well... More to show that we can build reliable cars just as well as the competition.
How about their older stuff? Well it's still common to find perfectly-running '80s Camry's going for over $3K. Why? Because they'll be about as reliable as anything that's 10 years newer. Don't try to argue with me about high mileage Toyotas crapping out, or showing their age, either. My daily driver is a carbureted '85 Corolla with over 194K on the odometer. I drive it 30 miles/day and have never, EVER had it do anything but start and drive me every day. Doesn't smoke, doesn't choke. Hell, I wouldn't even say I take good care of it. It just runs, as do many other AE86s I know of, being EFI or carb'd. Toyota has always been anal about tight tolerances on everything they build and it shows.
As I noted, older Toyotas seem to be built a lot better than the newer models, and I think that is a pretty far-reaching statement with all of the older Japanese models. We've got a Prelude that we've had since late 1988 that has yet to break in any way, only the Camry has given us problems. Most of the Nissans we have had ran like champs as well, particularly the older ones, but the newer Altima we had for a few years (it was an '03) didn't do nearly as good as the Maximas we had enjoyed from the '80s until about '02.
...The thing is, that is the Toyota of yesterday, not Today. The Avalon has been known as a somewhat unreliable car these days, particularly for a Toyota, and if that is the case with Toyota's (the brand) flagship, what can we expect of their other cars and trucks? Simply put, they don't build them like they used to. By every sense of measurement they are feeling the growing pains of becoming the world's largest automaker, and I find it rather ironic that everyone thought that Toyota would go on without a problem... Simply put, there are going to be issues when the company gets that big.
As for what you say about the applications of a Toyota/Honda... "If you want an appliance, buy a Toyota." This is 300% true. 90% of car shoppers want an appliance, and that's why they buy Toyota. Because they have a track record of reliability and that's all most people NEED. For most people, cars are appliances, and that's why the best ones are soon to be the largest automotive producer in the world.
Appliances are great and all, but would you not want something different? It is part of the reason why I bought a Volkswagen, and indeed why we're probably selling the Toyota for another VW as well. Appliances may be all that most people
NEED, and that is by their own personal choice, but there are better appliances out there...
Ok, but I want excitement, so I need to buy a Honda........WHAT?!?!?!? This statement is so unbelievably misleading, I don't know where to start. I could mention the R&T article about the IS being chosen over competing Acura and BMW models due to its overwhelming fun factor compared to the two, even though it was the only automatic transmission of the three. Or I could try to remember all the people who told me they test drove an S2000 and were appauled at how slow it was. There's also the fact that Honda is the all-around laughing stock of the performance world, but I'd rather not touch that subject, as it would get too heated for this thread. Or I could mention that the balls-out $90K NSX is still known for its unreal disinterest in power or acceleration. Well if you'd like, you can look at the torque curves of any Honda ever made and see that the entire company has made a strong effort to keep the evil forces of acceleration from making its way into their engines.
Since when is this a big Honda versus Toyota thread? To be completely honest, I don't care for either company at all in general. That said, the Accord is still a favorite when it comes to mid-size sedans for the fact that it is rather civilized, and can indeed take corners at a fair rate of speed without the computer taking control of the car (thanks Toyota Camry!). What it comes down to there is preference, and indeed Honda for the most part has what I would want, and comes with enough prestige to make most people happy. Honestly, if I was about to walk-out and spend $23K on a brand-new car, my money would automatically go to VW, to balking to me about the superiority of Toyota in terms of performance on Honda is indeed a moot point...
...As it is, this GM/VAG guy just doesn't care...
Excitement? I'll keep my Corolla. I have a blast in it daily. Not enough? I've still got the Supra (ya, know, "pure adrenaline attached to a license plate") for weekends, while its resale value holds steady in the garage the rest of the time. Sedan? the award-winning IS series will suit me fine. Cheaper? Infiniti Gs are doing an excellent job at their market point. Even cheaper? The new Camrys are looking beautiful, and the Spec V trim on Altimas still makes grocery trips exciting. No, wait, I need to ditch all that and get Honda's performance flagship: the Civic Si, because we all know how fast a Honda Civic is..........
Of note, I hate the Civic Si. Hell, I hate the Civic altogether right now as they are rather overrated, look rather ugly, and are surprisingly expensive for their segment. The only Hondas worth buying in my mind are the Fit, Accord, and S2000... But even then, there are better choices out there in my opinion. That being said, Toyota's lineup isn't any better (the only model I even slightly care for is the Tacoma), and Nissan certainly hasn't improved all that much, although they are getting better... However, they did screw-up the Sentra.
...But once again, you are neglecting to seperate the Toyota of today and the Toyota of yesterday. They are radically different companies, and we have noted it time and time again on these forums. Simply put, they aren't going to build 'exciting' cars anymore, and even if they do, say the LF-S and maybe the 'Supra,' they are going to be computer-controlled machines that make you think you're fast, when in fact it is the computer that does so for you...
Seriously, I'm not here to start an argument, but this guy is looking for a good car, and you came in here throwing out all kinds of misinformation, which seem to be based purely on opinion, and a lot of what you say is just outright WRONG.
Opinions are opinions, and when we appear to completely disagree on the same topic, obviously things are going to be heated. I really don't care to make it an argument either, but I should make it known that I really don't let anyone get away with anything anymore, Toyota included. Nobody is perfect in the industry today (although it would seem you think so with Toyota), and I don't care which side you are on.
...All I did is list the cars I would choose, so be it. If you don't like that I'd pick an Accord over the Camry, quite frankly thats you're problem. I've lived with a Toyota for quite some time, and I've been in most of the new Toyotas that are out there today. I called their bluff. I've called Hondas, Nissan's, Mazda's, GM's, Ford's, Chrysler's, etc... Nobody is perfect. Get over it.
And I'm pretty sure the reliability is pretty much useless since, off course, it's an American engine. Say what you want, American engines only deliver power and fun but no reliability. + the fact that if he had to do a swap to even get hold of an LS1, it would be even more expensive...
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