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Which GM division is doing the best?
- Thread starter TopHat
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Um.. I think you missed my point. it dosnt make sense to me why they would discontinue the Ion while continuing to produce the Cobalt and G5. Sinse the Ion (coupe) is arguably the best looking of the trio with identical running gear. So what killed it? Just plain ol' poor sales? will there be a replacement for the ion? will it be based on the same chassis? Or is saturn simply losing it's compact? It makes no sense why they would do away one of the flavors of a chassis they already produce in mass quantities, without a replacement, unless it simply wasnt selling. forgive me for not being "up" on the current automotive scheme.
[EDIT]
Thanks Toronado.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Its even more complicated than that:
What it comes down to is poor planning on behalf of Saturn for the Ion. It did indeed have to replace the S-series, argueably one of the best small cars in the early '90s when it came to compacts. The Ion just didn't live up to that car. Build quality was extremely poor, odd matches in pannels both inside and out, a stupid center-mount tach and spedo, bad-choise CVT transmissions, and an overly unrefined chassis that really is unmatched with any GM car I know of sold in the US.
...Chevrolet hit the nail on the head with the Cobalt, bringing the Delta chassis to its prime in America. The Ion's replacement (the Astra) is obviously a bit better both in terms of style and build quality, and it should sit well in the Saturn range below the Aura (aka larger wheelbase European Vectra).
Poverty
M5Power
Hold on a second there: The Pontiac G6 is a pretty damn-good car for the money. The looks are quite good for a modern Pontiac, build quality is ranked quite high, and the drive is exciting enough for most "average" people. Sure, the Vectra may not be considered to be a great car in Europe (as a matter of fact, Clarkson hates it!), but it serves its duty well as a family sedan, does it not?
So many people forget that it isn't always guys (or girls) like us going out and buying these cars. People are looking for solid, reliable transportation that makes them feel comfortable with themselves both inside and out. That is part of the reason why the G6 has been a success, particularly with women. Good looks and a decent reputation make it a winner in their book, and thats why so many people have bought them.
...I'm not going to defend everything that they have done with the G6, particularly the way that the low-end models are sold, but high praise is sent their way for the "average" GT and GTP model.
The future looks great for Pontiac, and with the updated Epsilon chassis on the way for 2008 or 2009, one would hope that the G6 only gets better, as it would appear that its sister car, the Chevrolet Malibu, will.
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...Maybe I should clarify what I meant by "both inside and out." I was meaning to lead to styling of the car both inside and out, bad choise of words on my behalf...
The interiors look much better now that they have the new GM radios. The old models didn't fair too good in the looks department before that came in.
"Tasteful" would be the word I'd use to describe it, but it certainly doesn't look as nice as it's sister car, the Aura.
The interiors look much better now that they have the new GM radios. The old models didn't fair too good in the looks department before that came in.
"Tasteful" would be the word I'd use to describe it, but it certainly doesn't look as nice as it's sister car, the Aura.
My vote was easy: Cadillac. By a long shot.
Opel is good, but hopelessly outclassed by many of its European rivals. Also, they aren't really doing any better now than they have before. They just keep on churning out moderately-good products for GM to globalize.
In the past, Saturn's only true accomplishment was great dealer service. Now, it's just the american arm of Opel.
Chevrolet pretty much represents GM as a whole...and GM as a whole isn't doing everything "right" yet.
Pontiac has replaced its previously-horrible lineup with a slew of respectably-decent cars, abandoning the oxymoronic "racing-inspired" names of its mainstays but replacing them with a European naming scheme that is unbefitting of an american manufacturer. Other than just not being very special, the new cars manage to look weird and ugly, yet bland and too-familiar at the same time.
There's nothing about Buick that's unique, interesting, or enticing, aside from perhaps its low prices. Of course, when your business is providing large, comfy sedans and SUVs, producing cheap cars isn't exactly a great thing. Of course, that didn't stopped them from building wallowy, worthless cars for years. Does anyone know if the Lucerne is even worth a slight glance if you're in the market for a midsize sedan? Every time I even start reading about Buicks I have trouble staying awake.
Saab was once a great car company, but has had its heart torn out by GM. They aren't doing as great as they once did, and certainly aren't doing any better than the majority of the GM brands.
Hummer is...well, Hummer. They're not known for making apologies, because they don't have to in order to sell their trucks. As a result, they lazily pump out gargantuan (or gargantuan-looking) yet worthless image-mobiles that can't handle a rough trail any better than an AWD wagon. They hardly live up to the name that they're branded with.
GMC is just Chevrolet with a little more effort put into the vehicles, and as a result is simply what Chevrolet should be from the get-go.
Holden, like Opel, produces good, respectable cars, but hasn't really done much to improve themselves.
Which brings me to the defense of my vote choice -- Cadillac has made a complete turn-around, and is actually doing a good job at what they set out to do. Contrary to what many would have believed years ago, Cadillac is nipping at the heels of the Europeans in the sports-sedan market, producing attractive, reasonably practical and well-performing cars that shattered the expectations of many, including myself. Up until they went into "attack mode," Cadillac was headed nowhere, and was no better than Lincoln or Buick -- nowadays the only thing holding them back is GM's accountants. Sure, Holden and Opel produce good and decent cars (respectively), but Cadillac has shown drastic improvement, and is the one Detroit-based GM division that I have respect for.
Opel is good, but hopelessly outclassed by many of its European rivals. Also, they aren't really doing any better now than they have before. They just keep on churning out moderately-good products for GM to globalize.
In the past, Saturn's only true accomplishment was great dealer service. Now, it's just the american arm of Opel.
Chevrolet pretty much represents GM as a whole...and GM as a whole isn't doing everything "right" yet.
Pontiac has replaced its previously-horrible lineup with a slew of respectably-decent cars, abandoning the oxymoronic "racing-inspired" names of its mainstays but replacing them with a European naming scheme that is unbefitting of an american manufacturer. Other than just not being very special, the new cars manage to look weird and ugly, yet bland and too-familiar at the same time.
There's nothing about Buick that's unique, interesting, or enticing, aside from perhaps its low prices. Of course, when your business is providing large, comfy sedans and SUVs, producing cheap cars isn't exactly a great thing. Of course, that didn't stopped them from building wallowy, worthless cars for years. Does anyone know if the Lucerne is even worth a slight glance if you're in the market for a midsize sedan? Every time I even start reading about Buicks I have trouble staying awake.
Saab was once a great car company, but has had its heart torn out by GM. They aren't doing as great as they once did, and certainly aren't doing any better than the majority of the GM brands.
Hummer is...well, Hummer. They're not known for making apologies, because they don't have to in order to sell their trucks. As a result, they lazily pump out gargantuan (or gargantuan-looking) yet worthless image-mobiles that can't handle a rough trail any better than an AWD wagon. They hardly live up to the name that they're branded with.
GMC is just Chevrolet with a little more effort put into the vehicles, and as a result is simply what Chevrolet should be from the get-go.
Holden, like Opel, produces good, respectable cars, but hasn't really done much to improve themselves.
Which brings me to the defense of my vote choice -- Cadillac has made a complete turn-around, and is actually doing a good job at what they set out to do. Contrary to what many would have believed years ago, Cadillac is nipping at the heels of the Europeans in the sports-sedan market, producing attractive, reasonably practical and well-performing cars that shattered the expectations of many, including myself. Up until they went into "attack mode," Cadillac was headed nowhere, and was no better than Lincoln or Buick -- nowadays the only thing holding them back is GM's accountants. Sure, Holden and Opel produce good and decent cars (respectively), but Cadillac has shown drastic improvement, and is the one Detroit-based GM division that I have respect for.
Unquestionably the best small SUV on the market, still. No point in arguing, though, since your decision is based upon looks. 
The fact that it had a horrible interior, an awful exterior, people were staying away in droves, and it was outdated the second it came out?
With 200 horsepower, unless you buy the "performance" model, which has less power than most of its competitors. Sorry - the Japanese took back the family sedan game in 1996 when Ford ****ed up the Taurus, and they've owned it ever since. In fact, since the '02 Altima and '03 Accord, they've been playing in different leagues. It's almost unfair how much better the Japanese cars are.
Though it may be more than one word, I'd describe it with "the worst air-conditioning vents in the history of automotive design" followed closely by "cheap plastics." Just look at the center stack. Doesn't it upset you that the stuff there is truly the very cheapest **** Pontiac could find?
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///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
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So I'm looking at Chevrolet's line up and can't help but think the Impala and Monte Carlo are weak links in their showroom. But I have to admit, I haven't been in either car for the better part of a decade, so I'm willing to keep an open mind. Any of you GM gurus want to make a case for these two? Is the Monte based on a short Impala platform or the Malibu? Or neither?
M
M
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The Impala and Monte Carlo are W-body cars, along with the Grand Prix and LaCrosse. I would agree they are very weak, the platform is about 15 years old and it's age shows. They are due for replacement in a year or two with Zeta-based cars, but I think GM has milked that platform for far more than it had to give.
The Malibu is Epsilon-based, on the other hand, and I think that is a fair platform, if not very sporting.
----
Here is a funny GM marketing "whoops"...can you spot it?
I really like the Monte Carlo. If you haven't got the wrong expectations for it, it's a very good car - much more relaxed, quiet, and smooth than its rivals (though admittedly it has few), and well-priced. The Toyota Solara is superior in many ways, but I could definitely understand why someone would get a Monte Carlo over a Solara.
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While it agitates me to great extents that people think Cadillacs are just now "nipping at the heels of European luxury sports cars" (or that people think Cadillacs are just "nipping at their heels" in general), I can't quite argue with people liking Cadillacs more. Caddies have been surprising the Euro guys for years, even the old FWD's (ask me how I know). It's just that now days, the Euro guys are proud to get their asses handed to them by a Cadillac, rather than being shamed by a FWD slushbox.
Obviously, I picked Cadillac.
Obviously, I picked Cadillac.
- 1,397
yeah but Ghost C, your surprise would have come at the corner!!!
anyway. best. very vague. sales? profits? revenue? customer retention? resale value? JDPower results?
id pick GMC. they have very little overhead in terms of engineering and design. and they sell thier product for a higher price than chevy.
but right now id say cadillac. the future bodes well for chevy and saturn if the styling of future products is not royally screwed.
anyway. best. very vague. sales? profits? revenue? customer retention? resale value? JDPower results?
id pick GMC. they have very little overhead in terms of engineering and design. and they sell thier product for a higher price than chevy.
but right now id say cadillac. the future bodes well for chevy and saturn if the styling of future products is not royally screwed.
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
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G6 is Epsilon too, right? What cars are riding on the Zeta?
Anyway, speaking of the G6, Pontiac has a long way to go in making me forget the Grand Am. In my previous life I spent quite a bit of time travelling in rental cars and grew to loathe the GA with an unholy passion.
Yeah. I guess they had to get jobs in marketing, since they failed chemistry because HO2 isn't water, but Hydroperoxyl according to Wiki
M
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- skip0110
By the time you option a Monte up with leather, sunroof, side airbags, and premium rims and sound, the MSRP is $30,000. A GTO's MSRP is $31,290.
GM is nuts.
Yep, G6 is Epsilon. In the coupes you can get a manual with the big 240 hp 3.9L V6 so they are making an effort to compete with V6 Accords and the like, but I don't think Epsilon is good enough to play in that league.
Nothing in the US rides on Zeta, yet. It is the new Holden Commodore platform that we will see as the G8 (Grand Prix replacement), next GTO, and next Impala (at a minimum).
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- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
To answer a few of ///M-specs Questions:
1) The Impala and Monte Carlo (among other Chevrolets): As others noted, both cars are based on the W-Body platform that has been lingering around since the late 1980s. The good news is that it has been signifigantly updated in the past few years, and although the W-Body will certainly be missed (as a value leader), it is time to see it go.
I've had plenty of exprience behind the wheels of more recent Pontiacs and Chevrolets, but not the newest versions of the cars. As noted before, the newest of the W-Bodies I had driven was an '02 Monte Carlo "SS" (200 BHP 3.8L V6, 4T80E Automatic), otherwise an '02 Pontiac Grand Prix SE (same engine) as well. The way I look at the cars is that you can't go in expecting BMW agility or Honda build quality... The cars are great at "regular" driving, going to Meijer, driving to Chicago, etc. When you push them hard, the age shows through in the twisties. They are fun to drive in that they go like stink, particularly the old Supercharged models that dissapeared for the most part (you can still buy them in the Pontiac Grand Prix GT) a few years ago.
...As for the Epsilon cars, particularly the Malibu and the G6, it is pretty much the same case. If you go in expecting a Camry or Accord, you are going to be dissapointed. I drove an '04 (or was it an '03?) Malibu LT a while back and I was impressed. The ride was pretty calm and quiet, the car was decently equipped, and there was enough power to keep me satisfied again for "regular" driving. Plastic quality was of a concern to me, as it looks nice from a distance, but up-close it isn't that pretty. The new radios (as mentioned before) have fixed some of those problems, and the wood trim makes it look a lot nicer on the LT and LTZ models, but it still isn't an Accord on the inside either.
...But when you can get nicely equipped Impalas and Monte Carlos, as well as Malibus for right around $23K, they are pretty good deals overall. Given that 30 MPG is easy to attain, build quality is excelent on the W-Body, and you can pick up used models for dirt-cheap, they make excelent used car options... Particularly if they were former Police crusiers!
2) On the Zeta Program: As noted before, nothing is here yet. Thus far, the only Zeta car in production is the Holden Commodore and it's offspring down in Australia, but if all goes to plan, we should be getting our first Zeta models in Spring 2007, or by the end of that summer.
Reported Zeta models are as follows:
= Buick Invicta/Statesman (Slightly bigger than the Commodore, slightly more luxurious, going after the Lexus GS class and 300C Long-Wheelbase)
- Chevrolet Camaro
- Chevrolet Impala
- Chevrolet Monte Carlo/Chevelle (May or may not happen. Rumors are now afloat that the Camaro will replace the Monte Carlo as Chevrolet's coupe and go racing in NASCAR in 2008 or 2009)
- Pontiac G8/Grand Prix (no offical name as of yet... G8 may be the Pontiac version of the Invicta/Statesman, successor to the Bonneville)
- Pontiac GTO
...There has also been a rumor going about that the Ute could come to the US again, but that is something that would be a year or two after the debut of the Zeta sedans...
Engines in terms of the V6 design will probably range from the 2.8L "Alloytec" currently seen in our CTS and, as well as the 3.6L "High Feature" V6 also in the CTS/Aura, etc. The 3.6L version is questionable as several different versions are to be on the market by the time the models debut. Ranging in power from about 250 BHP to about 270 BHP, I'd suspect the 270 BHP model may go into use. However there is also a Direct-Injection version in the pipe as well, and power output there is also unknown.
As for V8 power, that too is up in the air. All logic points to GM using their current lineup of 5.3L V8s that see duty in the GMT900 trucks, possibly another spinoff in the light of the LS4, designed to be in a RWD vehicle instead of a FWD one. Chances are also good that we will recieve the 6.0L L76 V8, good for 355 BHP and cylinder-shutoff technology. It is also reasonable to assume the LS2 will find its way into the SS and GXP models, good for about 400 BHP, same as you'd find in the Corvette... And if rumors are true, we could see an LS7 option in the future as well...
Diesel power is also said to be in the works, probably only V8 diesels in the Zeta models. GM wants to be able to promise upwards of 40 MPG on their diesel models, and with an S-load of torque, they may become a viable option against an SS flagship.
1) The Impala and Monte Carlo (among other Chevrolets): As others noted, both cars are based on the W-Body platform that has been lingering around since the late 1980s. The good news is that it has been signifigantly updated in the past few years, and although the W-Body will certainly be missed (as a value leader), it is time to see it go.
I've had plenty of exprience behind the wheels of more recent Pontiacs and Chevrolets, but not the newest versions of the cars. As noted before, the newest of the W-Bodies I had driven was an '02 Monte Carlo "SS" (200 BHP 3.8L V6, 4T80E Automatic), otherwise an '02 Pontiac Grand Prix SE (same engine) as well. The way I look at the cars is that you can't go in expecting BMW agility or Honda build quality... The cars are great at "regular" driving, going to Meijer, driving to Chicago, etc. When you push them hard, the age shows through in the twisties. They are fun to drive in that they go like stink, particularly the old Supercharged models that dissapeared for the most part (you can still buy them in the Pontiac Grand Prix GT) a few years ago.
...As for the Epsilon cars, particularly the Malibu and the G6, it is pretty much the same case. If you go in expecting a Camry or Accord, you are going to be dissapointed. I drove an '04 (or was it an '03?) Malibu LT a while back and I was impressed. The ride was pretty calm and quiet, the car was decently equipped, and there was enough power to keep me satisfied again for "regular" driving. Plastic quality was of a concern to me, as it looks nice from a distance, but up-close it isn't that pretty. The new radios (as mentioned before) have fixed some of those problems, and the wood trim makes it look a lot nicer on the LT and LTZ models, but it still isn't an Accord on the inside either.
...But when you can get nicely equipped Impalas and Monte Carlos, as well as Malibus for right around $23K, they are pretty good deals overall. Given that 30 MPG is easy to attain, build quality is excelent on the W-Body, and you can pick up used models for dirt-cheap, they make excelent used car options... Particularly if they were former Police crusiers!
2) On the Zeta Program: As noted before, nothing is here yet. Thus far, the only Zeta car in production is the Holden Commodore and it's offspring down in Australia, but if all goes to plan, we should be getting our first Zeta models in Spring 2007, or by the end of that summer.
Reported Zeta models are as follows:
= Buick Invicta/Statesman (Slightly bigger than the Commodore, slightly more luxurious, going after the Lexus GS class and 300C Long-Wheelbase)
- Chevrolet Camaro
- Chevrolet Impala
- Chevrolet Monte Carlo/Chevelle (May or may not happen. Rumors are now afloat that the Camaro will replace the Monte Carlo as Chevrolet's coupe and go racing in NASCAR in 2008 or 2009)
- Pontiac G8/Grand Prix (no offical name as of yet... G8 may be the Pontiac version of the Invicta/Statesman, successor to the Bonneville)
- Pontiac GTO
...There has also been a rumor going about that the Ute could come to the US again, but that is something that would be a year or two after the debut of the Zeta sedans...
Engines in terms of the V6 design will probably range from the 2.8L "Alloytec" currently seen in our CTS and, as well as the 3.6L "High Feature" V6 also in the CTS/Aura, etc. The 3.6L version is questionable as several different versions are to be on the market by the time the models debut. Ranging in power from about 250 BHP to about 270 BHP, I'd suspect the 270 BHP model may go into use. However there is also a Direct-Injection version in the pipe as well, and power output there is also unknown.
As for V8 power, that too is up in the air. All logic points to GM using their current lineup of 5.3L V8s that see duty in the GMT900 trucks, possibly another spinoff in the light of the LS4, designed to be in a RWD vehicle instead of a FWD one. Chances are also good that we will recieve the 6.0L L76 V8, good for 355 BHP and cylinder-shutoff technology. It is also reasonable to assume the LS2 will find its way into the SS and GXP models, good for about 400 BHP, same as you'd find in the Corvette... And if rumors are true, we could see an LS7 option in the future as well...
Diesel power is also said to be in the works, probably only V8 diesels in the Zeta models. GM wants to be able to promise upwards of 40 MPG on their diesel models, and with an S-load of torque, they may become a viable option against an SS flagship.
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- skip0110
Just wanted to note that the 2.8L ("Alloytec", is it even called that in the US market?) and 3.6L engines are the same basic design.
It was my understanding they were all called "High Feature" engines in the US market, except for where they are used in Saabs.
It was my understanding they were all called "High Feature" engines in the US market, except for where they are used in Saabs.
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