Which GM division is doing the best?

[Tornado]

However, the GMT960 platform trucks (those being the Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia, and Buick Enclave, Chevy version to debut in Detroit) are going to be worthy replacements to the far-too-old GMT360 trucks (Trailblazer, Envoy, etc). They are not only on-par with the Pilot and Highlander, they blow them out of the water with better pricing, similar build quality, better packaging, more power, better fuel economy, and arguably better looks.

I would hope so. The Pilot is over 4 years old and the Highlander is even older. GM does not want to start pumping out SUV's like they pumped out the Cobalt and (to a lesser extent) the Malibu, where all they manage to do is be better than the competition was 3 generations ago (but barely even one in the Malibu's case).

 

[skip0110]

I would hope so. The Pilot is over 4 years old and the Highlander is even older. GM does not want to start pumping out SUV's like they pumped out the Cobalt and (to a lesser extent) the Malibu, where all they manage to do is be better than the competition was 3 generations ago (but barely even one in the Malibu's case).

Agreed, I think GM even bragged during the Cobalt's introduction how they had benchmarked the 1999-2005 Jetta during development. The Cobalt then bowed in 2005 and around the same time a new Jetta did.

The current Malibu is probably closer competition for the 98-02 Accords (which, granted, were very competent cars) even though it was released 2 years later.

Also, the Trailblazer is a very reliable and durable vehicle, it can stand up to abuse much better than a Pilot, or any unibody, can.

 

[1X83Z]

Upon looking at the new pictures at the Saturn and Chevy websites, I will admit that Saturn has fixed one of my bigger problems with the Vue: The poor center console layout.

So now you concede interior design. And you've already conceded cost, power, and fuel efficiency. I'll concede rear seat room. That means the Vue has a better-designed interior, is cheaper, more powerful, and more fuel efficient - plus it has cheaper options (not to mention it's already better-equipped from the beginning). It's also better-looking. But. It has less rear seat room. So.

 

[Tornado]

So now you concede interior design.

No. I concede center console design for the '07 model, which is (at most) 1/7th of the entire range when both arre dumped next year, and also which went from being total crap to a complete rip-off of the Equinox. I don't see how being a carbon copy makes it any better.

And you've already conceded cost, power, and fuel efficiency.

I don't remember conceding cost. The Vue is cheaper, yes. But as you so eloquently said, it is also not in the same size class. I'd say 24 grand before rebates and dealer haggling is pretty good for a mid-sized AWD SUV, especially since Saturn doesn't usually allow haggling or rebates (usually) so you could probably leave a Chevy dealer with a Equinox for less than a Vue if your any good a taking the price down. And considering it actually costs less anyways for a base V6...

And the fuel effieciency difference is really almost negligable.

I'll concede rear seat room. That means the Vue has a better-designed interior, is cheaper, more powerful, and more fuel efficient - plus it has cheaper options (not to mention it's already better-equipped from the beginning).

I count two options, both of which I couldn't care less about.

It's also better-looking.

Looks are subjective. I think the current Vue looks like ass. The old Vue killed the Equinox in every way, and was almost unequaled in nice styling.

 

[YSSMAN]

For the '07 Models:

(Equinox)

(VUE)

I'd say its nearly a draw and it comes down to personal taste. The Chevrolet comes off more "upscale" in some respects while the Saturn comes off more "import-ish" in look. I like both interiors, and at least for me, it comes down to exterior styling. With that being a deciding factor, the Chevrolet wins.

...But the next-generation VUE could change that...



So lets hope they do an interior that is similar to the Aura's right now.

BTW: Did I mention that I was very impressed with the Aura yesterday? I can't even imagine why we even considered a Mazda 6 or Honda Accord at one point, this car simply kicks ass. Sure, it isn't a Volkswagen... But the XR that I looked at was only $23K, and really felt "solid," far beyond any other GM product I had looked at in a while. Its no Accord EX, I'll give Honda that, but the XR is a pretty awesome car... Worth a look if you're in the market...

 

[skip0110]

The Equinox has a Lexus RX-thing going for it.

The old Vue was an innovative design, it didn't look like any other small SUV on the road.

EDIT: I am referring to exterior, not interior, design.

 

[1X83Z]

[SIZE=4
[FONT=Garamond]I don't remember conceding cost. The Vue is cheaper, yes. But as you so eloquently said, it is also not in the same size class. I'd say 24 grand before rebates and dealer haggling is pretty good for a mid-sized AWD SUV

It'd be good for a decent midsize SUV. Unfortunately, the Equinox isn't that. Can you tell me why it has only 185 horsepower?

especially since Saturn doesn't usually allow haggling or rebates (usually)

All Saturn dealers allow price haggling.

 

[YSSMAN]

...It is a good question why GM hasn't updated the engine in the Equinox. I see that they are still using the ancient 3.4L V6, as even I thought they had updated it to the newer 3.5L "High Value" V6 line that puts down between 205-211 BHP. The 5-speed automatic certainly is a plus and helps both with fuel economy and power delivery, but my guess is that they haven't updated the engine based on whether or not the model will be replaced any time soon.

(I'd like to see the LY7 "High Feature" 3.6L V6 make its way into both the VUE and the Equinox, together with the 6T70E, but I doubt it will happen. The Theta structure is on the way out, and the combo will be used in the GMT960 trucks later this year, with more power than the "standard" LY7.)

 

[Tornado]

It'd be good for a decent midsize SUV. Unfortunately, the Equinox isn't that. Can you tell me why it has only 185 horsepower?

Because the engine is a piece of garbage. Can you tell me why that really seems to matter? It's a damned SUV. Anyone drag racing the thing is retarded, and the Equinox still isn't that slow for it's class. Besides, the Vue originally had an engine that was worse for 1/3 of it's life. Did that mean the '02-'04 Vue is worse than the '05 Equinox?
The Ford Fusion has a crappy engine. Why doesn't that make that car totally blow.

All Saturn dealers allow price haggling.

Kinda goes against everything Saturn stands for.

They are noted for their no-haggle pricing, where the cars are sold at their exact sticker price, their no-pressure sales environments, and professional sales staff.

 

[1X83Z]

Because the engine is a piece of garbage. Can you tell me why that really seems to matter? It's a damned SUV. Anyone drag racing the thing is retarded,

Drag racing? Have you ever driven the thing on a highway? I did, for four hours, thirteen days ago. It's an experience I never want to repeat. The only thing saving it is the fact that it has six cylinders - its power output is atrocious, and torque is only marginally better. It's the Equinox's biggest flaw, and the Vue's biggest merit.

and the Equinox still isn't that slow for it's class. Besides, the Vue originally had an engine that was worse for 1/3 of it's life. Did that mean the '02-'04 Vue is worse than the '05 Equinox?

'02-'03. Since '04 it's used the V6 Honda engine. And no - because in 2002 and 2003, 181 horsepower wasn't horrible for a small SUV. 185 horsepower has been horrible for a midsize SUV since the Equinox debuted.

The Ford Fusion has a crappy engine. Why doesn't that make that car totally blow.[/SIZE][/FONT]

How is its engine crappy? It's reliable, and it's got somewhat class-competitive horsepower, though nowhere near what it should be. The Fusion is a bad car, but its engine isn't the only reason for that. If you want to look at a car let down by its engine, look at the 3-liter Ford Five Hundred.

Kinda goes against everything Saturn stands for.

So? Scion doesn't haggle either, but they haggle. They only publish that policy so 60-year-olds aren't scared to buy the cars. Do you really think if the sticker said $24,000, the invoice was $21,000 and you offered $23,000 the Saturn dealer would say, "nope, the Relay is in such demand we're going to hold out for that extra grand!"

 

[Tornado]

Drag racing? Have you ever driven the thing on a highway? I did, for four hours, thirteen days ago. It's an experience I never want to repeat. The only thing saving it is the fact that it has six cylinders - its power output is atrocious, and torque is only marginally better. It's the Equinox's biggest flaw, and the Vue's biggest merit.

And otherwise they are essentially on equal footing (now, at least), except the Equinox costs less and is bigger.

'02-'03. Since '04 it's used the V6 Honda engine. And no - because in 2002 and 2003, 181 horsepower wasn't horrible for a small SUV. 185 horsepower has been horrible for a midsize SUV since the Equinox debuted.

So, what one is it? Mid-sized or compact? If it is mid-sized, it really isn't that much less BHP wise considering how much it costs. If it is compact, it isn't bad at all.

How is its engine crappy? It's reliable, and it's got somewhat class-competitive horsepower, though nowhere near what it should be. The Fusion is a bad car, but its engine isn't the only reason for that. If you want to look at a car let down by its engine, look at the 3-liter Ford Five Hundred.

While I would love to wonder why you think the Fusion is a bad car with the 500 being anymore than halfway different, that will have to be for another time. But on topic, how is the Fusion's engine better in relation to it's competitors than the Eqionox's in relation to it's competitors? They both give up about the same BHP on average (20-40).

So? Scion doesn't haggle either, but they haggle. They only publish that policy so 60-year-olds aren't scared to buy the cars. Do you really think if the sticker said $24,000, the invoice was $21,000 and you offered $23,000 the Saturn dealer would say, "nope, the Relay is in such demand we're going to hold out for that extra grand!"

Either way, do you think that you would be able to haggle a Vue (assuming you found a haggable dealer) to a lower price than the already-cheaper Equinox when the Chevy dealer is guaranteed to haggle?

 

[throttlehappy]

the answer is holden, the reason is the zeta platform that will be exported to numerous countries
end of story

 

[1X83Z]

And otherwise they are essentially on equal footing (now, at least), except the Equinox costs less and is bigger.

The Equinox costs less? Lord. Forget it. You can't even look at simple price lists!

 

[Tornado]

The Equinox costs less? Lord. Forget it. You can't even look at simple price lists!

You don't believe the Equinox costs less? Lord. Forget it. You can't even look at Saturn's own comparison for base V6's.

 

[1X83Z]

Yes. The base Vue is $245 more expensive than the Chevrolet Equniox. Of course, it comes equipped with OnStar with one year of service, steering wheel audio controls, an auto-dimming mirror, a compass, an outside-temperature indicator, a rear cargo organizer, and alloy wheels, none of which the Equinox has standard. And it has 75 more horsepower, more torque, and better fuel economy. And cheaper options. So... yeah. 👍

 

[Tornado]

Yes. The base Vue is $245 more expensive than the Chevrolet Equniox. Of course, it comes equipped with OnStar with one year of service, steering wheel audio controls, an auto-dimming mirror, a compass, an outside-temperature indicator, a rear cargo organizer, and alloy wheels, none of which the Equinox has standard. And it has 75 more horsepower, more torque, and better fuel economy. And cheaper options. So... yeah. 👍

Don't recall seing anything about steering wheel audio controls, auto dimming mirrors, compasses or outside temperature indicator anywhere on there.
And I've already covered the fuel economy and rear cargo organizer, so do pay attention.

 

[TopHat]

I'm gonna side with Mr. Chevy, only because he has a more stable argument.

 

[1X83Z]

Don't recall seing anything about steering wheel audio controls, auto dimming mirrors, compasses or outside temperature indicator anywhere on there.
And I've already covered the fuel economy and rear cargo organizer, so do pay attention.

Do you honestly think I'm wrong about that stuff? Lord. And that site just shows how the Saturn has more stuff! I don't recall you covering fuel economy but probably because I wasn't paying attention, and that's because I don't care, and that's because I know I'm right. So. Ya know.

I'm gonna side with Mr. Chevy, only because he has a more stable argument.

One of the things I've learned in college is: don't argue with people who think that all plurals use apostrophes.

 

[Tornado]

Do you honestly think I'm wrong about that stuff? Lord. And that site just shows how the Saturn has more stuff! I don't recall you covering fuel economy but probably because I wasn't paying attention, and that's because I don't care, and that's because I know I'm right. So. Ya know.

You make this great speech to cover your lying and to make me show my hand, and than you don't even pay attention? Perhaps you are too in shock that I disproved your assertion that the Vue cost less, or that the Equinox should have just as much cargo room as the Pilot despite being smaller, or even the window switch fiasco. Or perhaps you're just as stubborn as I am, and I don't even think that is physically possible so it must be one of the other ones.
But anyways:

And the fuel effieciency difference is really almost negligable.

Or would you like to try to explain how a 250 BHP sport SUV would consistently return that oh so important 1 MPG than the boring vanilla Equinox?
And I'd imagine that if the Saturn featured all of these amazing pieces of greatness that it apparently has they would at least put them on the Saturn website (do you really think you know more about their product than they do?), but for your benefit:

And the Equinox has the cubbys above the rear tires which nearly balances that out (I will admit it doesn't completely do so), and the large shelf for storage which the Vue doesn't have.

I count two options, both of which I couldn't care less about.

I mean, really. Why should I care about a dust and pollen filter when I am allergic to niether, or a remote truck release when I am not a lazy bum.

One of the things I've learned in college is: don't argue with people who think that all plurals use apostrophes.

One of the things I learned in life is: don't bother arguing with people who ignore your point and focus on grammatical issues (this is probably the 6th time you've done so) that rarely occur anyways to shirt the challenge to your obvious superiority in a field where I almost never lose in, as admittedly, do you.

 

[YSSMAN]

the answer is holden, the reason is the zeta platform that will be exported to numerous countries
end of story

We do have a lot to thank you Aussies for, don't we? Holden has been doing great, but outside of the Zeta models, you pretty much are representing the same models that will be seen in the UK as Vauxhall products, and in the rest of Europe and Asia as Opels. However I have noticed that your car's style has migrated here to the US on some of our Chevrolet products (Aveo) and will with Pontiacs as well (G8/Grand Prix).

...But you can't take all the credit for the Zeta platform. Some of the development has been done by the Americans, albeit somewhat minor, but enough to name them I suppose. I can't wait to see what you guys cook up for the Monaro, as we will be using it for our next GTO and probably a Chevelle/Monte Carlo as well (unless we rely solely on the Camaro there).

 

[1X83Z]

Or would you like to try to explain how a 250 BHP sport SUV would consistently return that oh so important 1 MPG than the boring vanilla Equinox?

75 more horsepower and STILL better fuel economy! It's awesome. The marvel of Japanese technology.

(do you really think you know more about their product than they
do?),

Yes because I have no source.

 

[throttlehappy]

We do have a lot to thank you Aussies for, don't we? Holden has been doing great, but outside of the Zeta models, you pretty much are representing the same models that will be seen in the UK as Vauxhall products, and in the rest of Europe and Asia as Opels. However I have noticed that your car's style has migrated here to the US on some of our Chevrolet products (Aveo) and will with Pontiacs as well (G8/Grand Prix).

...But you can't take all the credit for the Zeta platform. Some of the development has been done by the Americans, albeit somewhat minor, but enough to name them I suppose. I can't wait to see what you guys cook up for the Monaro, as we will be using it for our next GTO and probably a Chevelle/Monte Carlo as well (unless we rely solely on the Camaro there).

we have alot to thank chevy for, LS1, LS6, LS2, L76, L98 👍
if only we could get the LS7
i cant wait for the next monaro either, whenever that happens
although i find the cv8 hard to beat

 

[YSSMAN]

You guys don't have the LS7 down in Australia yet? I thought HSV was going to build a special version of the Commodore based on the SS-V? My guess is that it is in the works, if not I'm sure that the aftermarket folks are working on it. We still don't know if our Commodores will have it as an option, but we are almost certain that the Camaro will, more than likely anyway.

 

[Jay]

You guys don't have the LS7 down in Australia yet?

Nope.

I thought HSV was going to build a special version of the Commodore based on the SS-V?

Rumours, HSV E series (VE) are getting around now and so far no LS7, honestly I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[YSSMAN]

It doesn't seem like it would be too hard to do, as they should be selling the engines worldwide. Even then, my guess is that one of the guys in Australia can get on the hotline to Detroit and have a few shipped down for testing. I guarantee our versions of the Commodore and Monaro will eventually get them in some form, be it production or not.

...Heres an idea: You folks might end up with the LS9 (supercharged 6.2L V8) in your HSV models, depending on if the rumors about the LS9 are true or not...

 

[Jay]

Yeah of course it's not hard for them or anyone else to do, but I still doubt Holden will do it, in the near future anyway. So far FPV hasn't stepped the power in thier GT so I doubt HSV will either.

Remember HSV models have been handing out 300kw's (or close) for the last 5-6 years despite all the constant rumours of higher powered models on the way.

At the moment there are tons of rumours going around, 7.0L (375kw's), 6.2L (320kw's) etc, we'll see.


BTW when I said we dont have the LS7 here I mean officially, there are C6 Z06's getting around and I'm sure someone has imported the engines seperatly aswell (or will do)

 

[YSSMAN]

...Yeah, I thought you guys had the LS2 down there. That would be the 400 BHP (300KW) 6.0L available in damn-near everything here in the US. We are supposed to start seeing your L76 V8 here pretty soon in our Avalanche and Suburban, possibly in our Commodores and Monaros too.

---

As for Ford power, I'm surprised they haven't done anything with the 5.4L mill yet. They seem to be attempting to stuff it or a modified version in several different things at the moment, and I can't see how it would be too hard for you guys to get a hold of our version that currently powers the GT500.

Ford just signed off on some stuff to start a new Mustang race series using the Cobra and a new 5.0L Roush-Yates V8. Power numbers are about 525-550 BHP (390-420KW), any word on making it into an Aussie blue-oval?