Why doesn't Polyphony hire more people?

[another_jakhole]

Yeah, but you can't seriously compare game development in the late 90's - early 00's to development now. In '97, you could get a half-decent game developed with about a dozen staff in 12-18 months. Now, you need ten times that number to even consider getting anything done in two years or more.

THANK YOU.

CSLACR came back replying with an attitude. Really annoying.

You're coming off too strong from my point of view.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So we should also be amazed at Forza, Grid, Enthusia, and NFS, right?
But answer me why if (at least) 5 companies can do it, why I would be amazed?

If you find "every aspect of the game enjoyable" then you haven't experienced how much better some of it could be. Simple as that, and no offense intended.

FYI, how many cars were licensed for GT5? (Not 1,000, not even 200)

Fair enough, I see where you're coming from.

Forza and NFS.... both based on existing software for the consoles on which they were issued. The development was not ground up (certainly in Forza's case - it's another game I love but Forza 3 was a definite port in many respects).

With GT5 we're talking about ground-up building for a system with an entirely different architecture from its predecessor. The evolution of the XBox was much more direct so MGS companies like Turn 10 had the advantage of being able to directly transfer code. That wasn't the case for SGS/PD.

Only 200 cars licensed? No - every single car/image/name/attribution that you see has to be licensed for use. Not only that, it has to be licensed for use in multiple territories. That alone is an astonishingly difficult task.

I'm not saying that PD couldn't have done it quicker, I'm saying that they couldn't have done it much quicker.

 

[VQuick]

Turn10 does it that way, and in addition to their faster modeling process, that's how they can have 400+ cars every two years, plus months of DLC. Unfortunately, some of the quality control left a bit to be desired and several DLC cars had bugs that made online play frustrating.

Like what?

Not sure if I'm allowed to post a link to Turn10's forums here, but just search for 'weightless' or 'pillow cars.' Several DLC cars behave online as if they don't weigh anything, and can be pushed around easily by other cars. This becomes a serious issue in the 'Tag' and 'Cat and Mouse' lobbies, where contact is expected, and the cars are pretty much unusable. Even in normal racing, that sort of bug will cause headaches by greatly exaggerating any accidental contact between drivers.

This problem was been tested and experienced by many over the period of several months, which eliminates simple connection issues as a cause. The cars with these issues are well documented. When a DLC pack with a 'pillow car' was released, I was among the crowd who found the bug that very day and let others know about the issue.

Turn10 not only refused to fix the problems, but went so far as to downplay them as not being a 'showstopper.' Of course, if you can't use a car in the game, how is that not a showstopper? It's even worse that you just paid for it, and can't get a refund.

 

[TenEightyOne]

ShowStopper, that was the end of Che Chou's time at Turn 10

I still see those pillow cars being denied as "network problems". What bunkum!

 

[VQuick]

ShowStopper, that was the end of Che Chou's time at Turn 10

I still see those pillow cars being denied as "network problems". What bunkum!

What was even more annoying were the members who joined in denying the problems as well. Better yet, they'd blindly defend Turn10 saying stupid things like 'Well if you don't like it, don't buy it!'

Duhhhhh, you can't find the problem unless you buy it, and by then it's too late, isn't it?

 

[Hotspitta]

Not sure if I'm allowed to post a link to Turn10's forums here, but just search for 'weightless' or 'pillow cars.' Several DLC cars behave online as if they don't weigh anything, and can be pushed around easily by other cars. This becomes a serious issue in the 'Tag' and 'Cat and Mouse' lobbies, where contact is expected, and the cars are pretty much unusable. Even in normal racing, that sort of bug will cause headaches by greatly exaggerating any accidental contact between drivers.

This problem was been tested and experienced by many over the period of several months, which eliminates simple connection issues as a cause. The cars with these issues are well documented. When a DLC pack with a 'pillow car' was released, I was among the crowd who found the bug that very day and let others know about the issue.

Turn10 not only refused to fix the problems, but went so far as to downplay them as not being a 'showstopper.' Of course, if you can't use a car in the game, how is that not a showstopper? It's even worse that you just paid for it, and can't get a refund.

I'm not buying it. I never encounterd one and i have all DLC and VIP cars. And i do play online with these.
Proof?

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm not buying it. I never encounterd one and i have all DLC and VIP cars. And i do play online with these.
Proof?

Race the Bentley DLC car against another one and try to crash into it.

 

[VQuick]

I'm not buying it. I never encounterd one and i have all DLC and VIP cars. And i do play online with these.
Proof?

Again, I'm probably not allowed to link to their board. Is it that hard to search like I told you to and see for yourself?

Edit: If you won't do it yourself, then here are links to some screenshots.

http://i.imgur.com/hid22.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1m3KM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IzpDs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/79aWQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3UZL3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XJVtj.jpg

 

[FishHunters]

Online Garage
Head to Head racing
Time Trial
Track Day
B-Spec Race
License Test
Drift Contest
Tuning / Setting Features
Friend List
Lobby

Voice Chat
Bulletin Board
Spectator Mode
Team Builder
Club Builder
Colouring Editor (or Coloring to you colonists! )
Number Plate Editor
Race Builder Tool
Photo Album

Keep in mind, before you get mad, some of this stuff is next gen console stuff. Kaz spoke before his programmers told him can't be done on PS3

 

[riph]

To me, on my opinion is PD has a enough staff to do only GT series. but what im concern is they not implement the latest technique ecspecially in modelling cars, 6 month per one car? I think nowadays on gaming industry is not practical anymore. Pd shuld do smething to make it short.seriously

I saw PD now likes acting like divas always going to this & that events (sorry kaz) grand openings etc etc & they seems forgot the main thing - the GT itself
so stop doing the gt prologue, concentrate straight to the full GT release itself, stop wasting time to to trailers,car teasers opening bla2 etc etc that can delay the release.

now back on the board & start to put the GT1 & gt2 spirit

sorry for my english.

 

[another_jakhole]

Your english is fine.

But divas?

Hells no. The continuous work on the GT series is good enough.

About 19 years of it. The GT1 spirit took from '91, at the earliest, to '96.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Again, I'm probably not allowed to link to their board. Is it that hard to search like I told you to and see for yourself?

Despite some members' attitudes - there's nothing wrong with linking to another site, even if it's a site for a "competitor". We embrace all racing games here at GTP. That's why there's a dedicated Forza sub-forum - which is why I'll ask that if this becomes a predominantly Forza-based talk (as these subjects tend to), it can be closed, or moved there.

Keep in mind, before you get mad, some of this stuff is next gen console stuff. Kaz spoke before his programmers told him can't be done on PS3

Nothing on that list requires a next-generation console, since it all can and has been done currently.

 

[VQuick]

Despite some members' attitudes - there's nothing wrong with linking to another site, even if it's a site for a "competitor". We embrace all racing games here at GTP. That's why there's a dedicated Forza sub-forum - which is why I'll ask that if this becomes a predominantly Forza-based talk (as these subjects tend to), it can be closed, or moved there.



Nothing on that list requires a next-generation console, since it all can and has been done currently.

Thanks. I just didn't want to risk derailing things further.

If PD decides to outsource, which could be more helpful than taking on more full-time employees, all they need to do is just do some QC and make sure it's right. They get the extra work done while saving money, we get to have it, and everyone's happy.

 

[deep_sky]

I don't think Polyphony need to hire more people.

There are fleeting glimpses in GT5 that prove PD are still capable of producing something technically and graphically outstanding. They haven't lost that ability.

But what they need to do is cut out the nonsense features and focus on what is actually important, instead of having resources diverted to nonsense like B-Spec, Remote Racing, etc. These are not important to the game.

Yes, we'd probably all like more cars, but you have to remember that by the time GT PS4 comes along (which could easily be years away) PD will have amassed a large amount of premium cars that will be ready to go, and likely of a more consistent quality that those features in other games.

The problem with GT5 is largely the design, and so hiring more people isn't going to make the design of GT magically better; it's up to the current designers to realise that it is outdated and needs changing. That is their job after all, and if they are incapable of realising that, those designers should not be in their post in the first place.

 

[Smoothherb]

I think GT has many useless stuff. If you cut this and take the man-hour into other things 150 People should be enough. In my oppinion many of these 150 peole seem to focus on strange things like: headtracking, 3d or the coursemaker...

 

[Hotspitta]

I think GT has many useless stuff. If you cut this and take the man-hour into other things 150 People should be enough. In my oppinion many of these 150 peole seem to focus on strange things like: headtracking, 3d or the coursemaker...

...Paintchips, lack of Aspec races....

Pd should hire more people because when you boast 1000+ cars at least make them look good and of similar quality. They are taking much too long with the Premiums. Some say...they took 6 months too build...6 monthss??? For one car??? Pd can do better they. That means if it takes 6 months to do a Premium ,the first Gran Turismo game with 800 cars will drop somewhere around 2042.

 

[CSLACR]

Yeah, but you can't seriously compare game development in the late 90's - early 00's to development now. In '97, you could get a half-decent game developed with about a dozen staff in 12-18 months. Now, you need ten times that number to even consider getting anything done in two years or more.

Sounds like you're saying they need more people.
10 X 12 = 120. Took 3 times the two year mark.

THANK YOU.

CSLACR came back replying with an attitude. Really annoying.

You're coming off too strong from my point of view.

I don't see anything I said as out of line.
You referred to putting out a "sim" game every two years as "pulling a Forza".
I pointed out the facts you should have known yourself in the first place, that is, if you wish to take place in a discussion like this one.
PD had been putting one out every two years, until GT5. Had prologue been a better, more involving game, something as simple as 12 tracks, a real career mode, etc, it could have been dubbed GT5, people would have enjoyed it much more, and all just might be better. (See GT3) Unfortunately they couldn't, due to lack of manpower to meet with Kaz's desires.

So the answer to the OP is simple, to create anything similar to what Kaz wanted, yes, they needed (need) more people. To create a lesser game, no, they don't need more people.
The obvious truth here is it took 6 years to make one racing game. A racing game which is inferior in many features based comparisons to other games. The strong points for GT5 include some of the graphics, and driving realism. As we know, the driving physics of GT5P were also an improvement, and could have served useful for a full GT5, along with the graphics they had, which IMO, haven't really changed much, if at all.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

As some have pointed out, this is the first GT game riddled with what I call the "Fluff factor".

Useless diddys that contribute nothing to the actual quality of the game.

Prior releases have always majored on content and features that enhance and promote a great GT experience.
Kaz has always produced a game with heart and soul, until this one.
So now we are to believe Kaz is suddenly out of touch, or has the gaming equivalent of the "middle age crazies".

Sorry I just don't buy it.
I'm convinced more than ever, this game is the product of Sony's influence, and thats the biggest problem for Kaz and the making of the GT series.

 

[E28]

Kaz does go over the top. We need someone between kaz and the dev team to tone him down. Basically:
Kaz "Lets have 32 billion polygon cars on a track in dynamic weather!"
this goes to:
New guy "How about 32 cars, but with only 16 cars when there is dynamic weather, and lets use decent detail cars in race, and high detail cars in photo mode..."

 

[Sele1981]

"Pull a Forza"?
7 guys made GT1 in less time than 130 made GT5.
And:...
GT1: 1997
GT2: 1999
GT3: 2001
GT4: 2004
GT5: 2010
It seems every two years... then one took 3 years to release.
Yup, GT games can come out every two years, and until GT5, they did.
How do you get a vendetta out of my posts? 130K for a company that's sold over 60 million games? Even if the average price is $30USD, that's 1.8 Billion dollars in sales. And after their newest game released, and has sold most of it's copies, they're left with 130K?
Yes, I am stressed, I love the GT series, and I'd like to see the company behind it not go bankrupt. 👍

Interesting! Maybe we´ll see an GT6 announcement soon? I don´t believe it but they got the engine, they nailed the physics... Make 500 premiums, add some more stuff, make an great A-Spec mode and there you have GT6...

"Unfortunately" Kaz is not an money addicted guy like Dan Greenwald... I´ll preffer Dan´s mentality... I mean Forza fans are happy to get so much DLC and are ready to pay for... I think it´s ok to offer some DLC each month and take 5 bucks for it... Why not... They even asked the community wich cars they want and made an "communitys choice car pack"! Kaz does not even ask one question to the GT fans... He does not look to other games and so on...

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

"Pull a Forza"?
7 guys made GT1 in less time than 130 made GT5.
And:...
GT1: 1997
GT2: 1999
GT3: 2001
GT4: 2004
GT5: 2010
It seems every two years... then one took 3 years to release.
Yup, GT games can come out every two years, and until GT5, they did.

Are you seriously trying to equate PS1 game development time/complexity with PS3 game development time/complexity?

 

[CSLACR]

Are you seriously trying to equate PS1 game development time/complexity with PS3 game development time/complexity?

Did I equate them?
Or did I say 7 people made the most significant GT game to date, in less time than the current, possibly least significant advancement?

What did GT5 bring to the table that no other racing has ever brought? PS3 eye compatibility? 3D TV compatibility?

No, seriously. The GT series was a front runner in originality, creativity, and features unheard of. While they continued adding "features" that are new, such as listed above, nobody has 3D TV's, and only a handful have and use the Eye.

They focused to much on having these new features, as was just said, likely being pushed by Sony, meanwhile, Kaz had his own vision, and between the two there wasn't nearly the manpower resource to complete anything in the time frame it should have taken.

If you would like to say it's not a manpower issue, feel free to give a reason. But as we already know the rivals of the series are using more people, and getting the job done.
GT5 was great because I bought the PS3 strictly for it, and never considered an XBOX. Now I'm considering an XBOX just for Forza 4.
(My main interference is having to buy another wheel that I can't use for GT5, on a limited budget.)

 

[Mr. CoolFiat]

Did I equate them?
Or did I say 7 people made the most significant GT game to date, in less time than the current, possibly least significant advancement?

What did GT5 bring to the table that no other racing has ever brought? PS3 eye compatibility? 3D TV compatibility?

No, seriously. The GT series was a front runner in originality, creativity, and features unheard of. While they continued adding "features" that are new, such as listed above, nobody has 3D TV's, and only a handful have and use the Eye.

They focused to much on having these new features, as was just said, likely being pushed by Sony, meanwhile, Kaz had his own vision, and between the two there wasn't nearly the manpower resource to complete anything in the time frame it should have taken.

If you would like to say it's not a manpower issue, feel free to give a reason. But as we already know the rivals of the series are using more people, and getting the job done.
GT5 was great because I bought the PS3 strictly for it, and never considered an XBOX. Now I'm considering an XBOX just for Forza 4.
(My main interference is having to buy another wheel that I can't use for GT5, on a limited budget.)

I was about to say the same thing -_-
DAMNIT...

 

[GTP_Plato]

Feel free to name them whatever you like.
Game saves self-destructing at a certain size. Cutting through walls. Features listed on product package not originally included. "Premium" cars missing obvious specs, such as fully adjustable downforce, proper gearing ratios.

I'm sure I'm missing some. And every single one comes down to quality control, or Kaz needing a leash.
I appreciate the mans vision, and what he's created.
That said he is horrible for business lately. 2 more years? If I had known it'd be 6 years I would have gotten an XBOX instead, let alone two more.
And I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only one. It's nothing to do with hating PD, GT5, Sony, or having a need to complain, I wanted a sim racer sooner, and had I known turn 10 would be my only game console to provide that, I would have gone with them.
p.s. (PC games, indy games, nascar games & NFS games need not apply here)

You are missing one

One of the worst penalty systems ever on a racing game

The FM series has always had a far superior penalty system than the terrible one we have on this game. As for FM4 I see a lot of GT5 regulars switching to it because they have features that people have been asking for for 7 months, the thing is these features will be in the game upon release, a game that took less than half the time GT5 did to make. Not only this but according to Eurogamer and Inside Sim Racing, FM4 will have the best physics on console (there own words).

As for the subject on PD hiring more people, I can't see it making a difference. They seem clueless as to what is wrong with their product and concentrate on putting stupid things like helmets and suits in the game, when they should be fixing the game breakers first. Turn 10 FTW.

 

[Sele1981]

You are missing one

One of the worst penalty systems ever on a racing game

The FM series has always had a far superior penalty system than the terrible one we have on this game. As for FM4 I see a lot of GT5 regulars switching to it because they have features that people have been asking for for 7 months, the thing is these features will be in the game upon release, a game that took less than half the time GT5 did to make. Not only this but according to Eurogamer and Inside Sim Racing, FM4 will have the best physics on console (there own words).

Sounds good but as we know, Microsoft has a lot of money... I can imagine they paid Eurogamer and Inside Sim Racing to write these words... But if FM4 really has the best physics, I´ll move on to FM4 and get my Fanatec GT2...

Why should PD even care if GT players go over to FM4? They got our money for GT5... We will be back on GT6 and they know this...


As for the subject on PD hiring more people, I can't see it making a difference. They seem clueless as to what is wrong with their product and concentrate on putting stupid things like helmets and suits in the game, when they should be fixing the game breakers first. Turn 10 FTW.

Sad but true. I still don´t get it why they implement helmets and racing suits
It is shocking how clueless PD seems and how innovative T10 is... Really, I can´t imagine that PD is working on things that the west culture wants, like livery, EU/US cars, EU/US tracks, customizing, online stuff, online auctions... They go more the traditional way and implement stuff like 700 Japanese cars A bit too patriotic

...

 

[Furinkazen]

Wading into this...

Firstly PD's aim is not "The Real Racing Simulator", but the "The Real Driving Simulator. Also Forza 4, does look decent, even as an ardent GT fan I will admit that. But here is a difference:

Forza's emphasis is on racing, GT is on driving. Part of what is good about GT are the touches like custom music, racing suits, changing your car's oil... It's out to provide a representation of the joy of driving. Forza is heavily race-oriented - look at the car listings to prove that.

Another thing I don't get. People say "Forza is going to beat GT hands down etc etc..."... why should microsoft (and PD vice-versa) compete with a game that is not even going on the same system? They are not in direct competition as rivals, but what they do is push the limits of driving games on consoles.


And on the DLC subject, PD has provided with a ton of updates and fixes since GT5 came out, for free! They care about their fans enough to do that. I think it is too late for DLC, and besides, if we got lots of DLC now, people will then complain when GT6 comes around that there is not enough new content!

 

[GTP_Plato]

It will be interesting to see the sales figures after FM4 has been out 7 months, cause I can easily see it eclipsing this.

Why would Microsoft need to pay people off to say they have the best physics, ISR are probably the best people to express their opinions and reviews when it comes to racing games.

There are a lot of disgruntled GT5 players out there that have said they are going to get an Xbox for FM4, as a long time FM player I can't blame them as Turn 10 have really took note of what the community wants this time round.

A shame the same can't be said for PD, but with FM4 looking so promising I can't wait to go back in october, and I am probably not the only one. FM3 was a let down and they realized their mistakes, and seem to have nailed it this time.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It will be interesting to see the sales figures after FM4 has been out 7 months, cause I can easily see it eclipsing this.

...

There are a lot of disgruntled GT5 players out there that have said they are going to get an Xbox for FM4, as a long time FM player I can't blame them as Turn 10 have really took note of what the community wants this time round.

... FM3 was a let down and they realized their mistakes, and seem to have nailed it this time.

I'd say that FM3 looked as exciting as FM4 in the previews... let's wait and see what we get

As a long-time Forza fan I'll be buying it regardless but of all the games that have taught me not to believe the marketing Forza 3 is right up there!

 

[vandaliser]

Did I equate them?
Or did I say 7 people made the most significant GT game to date, in less time than the current, possibly least significant advancement?

What did GT5 bring to the table that no other racing has ever brought? PS3 eye compatibility? 3D TV compatibility?

No, seriously. The GT series was a front runner in originality, creativity, and features unheard of. While they continued adding "features" that are new, such as listed above, nobody has 3D TV's, and only a handful have and use the Eye.

They focused to much on having these new features, as was just said, likely being pushed by Sony, meanwhile, Kaz had his own vision, and between the two there wasn't nearly the manpower resource to complete anything in the time frame it should have taken.

If you would like to say it's not a manpower issue, feel free to give a reason. But as we already know the rivals of the series are using more people, and getting the job done.
GT5 was great because I bought the PS3 strictly for it, and never considered an XBOX. Now I'm considering an XBOX just for Forza 4.
(My main interference is having to buy another wheel that I can't use for GT5, on a limited budget.)

LOL,

i take it you're not a programmer whatsoever right? PD had to throw away all their legacy code from the ps2 era and start from scratch building an engine from the ground up. If you are seriously thinking that developing code for the ps3 is as simply as for it is for a ps1 then i got news for you.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I'd say that FM3 looked as exciting as FM4 in the previews...

And....... IMO it turned out to be a much better game than FM2.

let's wait and see what we get

Agreed.