Why doesn't Polyphony hire more people?

[dothackRAVE]

Some of you should try running a business...

I'm opening a gaming center in 2 months. It's been a year of planning, work, decisions, investor relations, etc. etc. etc.

You know what took the longest? Licensing. Jesus Christ, I am doing all these companies a favor by offering their games to play by a pretty large audience. Essentially free marketing. But you know what happens every time I call a game publisher/developer?

Receptionist - Hello, <company name>, How can I help you today? You need to speak about WHAT? Oh okay. You need to talk to this guy, who's not in the office right now. Would you like to leave a message? Sure. -3-10 days later- Hello, this is <guy you need to talk to>. What did you need to do again? What was that? What? OH, I get it now. Let me talk to this other guy and I'll call you back. -3-10 days later- Hello, it's me again. This is the info you requested (but only the least helpful stuff). You need to know what? Okay, let me talk to that other guy....and so on and so forth...

I only had to call a few major companies, and a few small publishers. Even worse are the small companies, because they don't have the protocol in place for licensing.

PD works with what? 90 something manufacturers? A lot of which are massive bureaucracies? Assuming the man works every day of the week, that's 900 DAYS (2 years+) just talking about licensing. Divide by half because PD is a larger company than mine, and will get better access.

Then they have to bring out the cars, drive them, record the sounds, etc. etc. etc. Make sure manufacturers are happy with the cars and how they will be used.

It's endless. I'm surprised that PD can even put out a game in 6 years.

tl;dr Licensing is a ginormous cluster****, and PD is a relatively small group compared to Turn10.

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

Some of you should try running a business...

I'm opening a gaming center in 2 months. It's been a year of planning, work, decisions, investor relations, etc. etc. etc.

You know what took the longest? Licensing. Jesus Christ, I am doing all these companies a favor by offering their games to play by a pretty large audience. Essentially free marketing. But you know what happens every time I call a game publisher/developer?

Receptionist - Hello, <company name>, How can I help you today? You need to speak about WHAT? Oh okay. You need to talk to this guy, who's not in the office right now. Would you like to leave a message? Sure. -3-10 days later- Hello, this is <guy you need to talk to>. What did you need to do again? What was that? What? OH, I get it now. Let me talk to this other guy and I'll call you back. -3-10 days later- Hello, it's me again. This is the info you requested (but only the least helpful stuff). You need to know what? Okay, let me talk to that other guy....and so on and so forth...

I only had to call a few major companies, and a few small publishers. Even worse are the small companies, because they don't have the protocol in place for licensing.

PD works with what? 90 something manufacturers? A lot of which are massive bureaucracies? Assuming the man works every day of the week, that's 900 DAYS (2 years+) just talking about licensing. Divide by half because PD is a larger company than mine, and will get better access.

Then they have to bring out the cars, drive them, record the sounds, etc. etc. etc. Make sure manufacturers are happy with the cars and how they will be used.

It's endless. I'm surprised that PD can even put out a game in 6 years.

tl;dr Licensing is a ginormous cluster****, and PD is a relatively small group compared to Turn10.

Acknowledging the complexities presented by R E A L I T Y is worth very little salt on a game-specific message board filled with rabid males aging 18-34.

 

[Risco]

Some of you should try running a business...

I'm opening a gaming center in 2 months. It's been a year of planning, work, decisions, investor relations, etc. etc. etc.

You know what took the longest? Licensing. Jesus Christ, I am doing all these companies a favor by offering their games to play by a pretty large audience. Essentially free marketing. But you know what happens every time I call a game publisher/developer?

Receptionist - Hello, <company name>, How can I help you today? You need to speak about WHAT? Oh okay. You need to talk to this guy, who's not in the office right now. Would you like to leave a message? Sure. -3-10 days later- Hello, this is <guy you need to talk to>. What did you need to do again? What was that? What? OH, I get it now. Let me talk to this other guy and I'll call you back. -3-10 days later- Hello, it's me again. This is the info you requested (but only the least helpful stuff). You need to know what? Okay, let me talk to that other guy....and so on and so forth...

I only had to call a few major companies, and a few small publishers. Even worse are the small companies, because they don't have the protocol in place for licensing.

PD works with what? 90 something manufacturers? A lot of which are massive bureaucracies? Assuming the man works every day of the week, that's 900 DAYS (2 years+) just talking about licensing. Divide by half because PD is a larger company than mine, and will get better access.

Then they have to bring out the cars, drive them, record the sounds, etc. etc. etc. Make sure manufacturers are happy with the cars and how they will be used.

It's endless. I'm surprised that PD can even put out a game in 6 years.

tl;dr Licensing is a ginormous cluster****, and PD is a relatively small group compared to Turn10.

That still does not excuse a game taking over 5 yrs to come out, that was clearly unfinished and rushed to release. You can over engineer a product and this what PD did. A game is not just about how real it feels, but how interesting and intense the racing and gameplay is. PD hashed together the single player, forgot about engine sounds ( they all sound the same, just different pitches ) and totally disregarded the AI. I have never played a modern game with such poor AI. Every single AI car runs on rails, they rarely crash and do not try to overtake unless it is on the driving line.

Whenever I race the computer, I feel I am racing the clock rather than the drivers as they are so damn easy to overtake. However if your car sucks balls, it makes it incredibly boring. The Fiat Seasonal was hard, not for overtaking, but rather just your ability to make every corner perfect which is totally unrealistic.

The main redeeming feature about GT5 is that the cars handle just like the real thing. As a game though, it is more a tech demo with a few features slapped on for good measure. They don't even have a real damage engine, which is a cardinal sin in racing sims. When you crash against other cars or walls, it is still like bumper cars, unrealistic to the extreme. I do not buy the excuse of licensing as a reason for no damage and the ridiculously long production time.

 

[BWX]

All you guys talking about InsideSimRacing, I can't remember exactly which video, but about a month or so ago I heard Shaun say that he thinks Shift 2's physics were better that GT5's physics. He said he preferred them. I can't trust him anymore after that and I said so on Youtube. I traded in S2 and F1 2010 for Dirt 3 because I think Shift 2 physics wrecked that game. So I wouldn't take anything ISR says about physics very seriously, Darren seems pretty honest, but Shaun doesn't to me after he said that. I just don't believe he actually thinks that.

@MikeTheHockeyFan -- Speak for yourself I'll be 39 soon and there are a lot of older dudes on GTP.

 

[GMW]

Some of you should try running a business...

I'm opening a gaming center in 2 months. It's been a year of planning, work, decisions, investor relations, etc. etc. etc.

You know what took the longest? Licensing. Jesus Christ, I am doing all these companies a favor by offering their games to play by a pretty large audience. Essentially free marketing. But you know what happens every time I call a game publisher/developer?

Receptionist - Hello, <company name>, How can I help you today? You need to speak about WHAT? Oh okay. You need to talk to this guy, who's not in the office right now. Would you like to leave a message? Sure. -3-10 days later- Hello, this is <guy you need to talk to>. What did you need to do again? What was that? What? OH, I get it now. Let me talk to this other guy and I'll call you back. -3-10 days later- Hello, it's me again. This is the info you requested (but only the least helpful stuff). You need to know what? Okay, let me talk to that other guy....and so on and so forth...

I only had to call a few major companies, and a few small publishers. Even worse are the small companies, because they don't have the protocol in place for licensing.

PD works with what? 90 something manufacturers? A lot of which are massive bureaucracies? Assuming the man works every day of the week, that's 900 DAYS (2 years+) just talking about licensing. Divide by half because PD is a larger company than mine, and will get better access.

Then they have to bring out the cars, drive them, record the sounds, etc. etc. etc. Make sure manufacturers are happy with the cars and how they will be used.

It's endless. I'm surprised that PD can even put out a game in 6 years.

tl;dr Licensing is a ginormous cluster****, and PD is a relatively small group compared to Turn10.

This is one of the most useful posts I've read in a while. Thank you for this insight into the realities of the gaming world! 👍

 

[Big Ron]

This is one of the most useful posts I've read in a while. Thank you for this insight into the realities of the gaming world! 👍

I think, not at all. Because he was alone for calling companies to get licenses....and he is unknown.
PD is a famous developer and has serveral employees (or maybe a whole team) to let this happen and as they have a long relationship history with all this manufacturers, they didn´t need 900 days to get all licenses.

Having worked in the motor industry and been involved in product licensing I can assure you that every individual car needs to be agreed, right down to the variant and trim levels

So yes all 1,000 cars in GT5 would have required licence agreements, and those agreements would need to detail exactly how those products would be used and portrayed.

Don't agree the licence for them and use them and you are open to legal action of a massive nature, and one you would not start a hope of winning.

Scaff

I can assure you, that PD does not need to get licenses for every GT-title from the beginning again. As most developers, PD gets licenses for several years or titles in a row. So you can be sure, that most licenses were already completed and in possession.

 

[dothackRAVE]

That still does not excuse a game taking over 5 yrs to come out, that was clearly unfinished and rushed to release. You can over engineer a product and this what PD did. A game is not just about how real it feels, but how interesting and intense the racing and gameplay is. PD hashed together the single player, forgot about engine sounds ( they all sound the same, just different pitches ) and totally disregarded the AI. I have never played a modern game with such poor AI. Every single AI car runs on rails, they rarely crash and do not try to overtake unless it is on the driving line.

Very true, in the sense that they failed to meet the deadline set by themselves.

However, I do contend your assertion that a game is about how "interesting and intense the racing and gameplay is" is rather narrow. Frankly, I find GT to be more about the driving experience (hence, "The Real Driving Simulator"). Yes, the cars do run on rails, but they've certainly improved lately (p.s., for a game with worse AI, play GT1, 2, 3, 4). When I play GT5, I really don't care much about the other cars on track. They're just there to create a puzzle for me to solve (i.e., how to pass cleanly).

Also, I frankly don't think the sounds are the same with different pitches. A V10 Lambo sounds like a V10, and a I4 sounds like a I4. Yes, they do sound digitized, but the same? Hardly.

Whenever I race the computer, I feel I am racing the clock rather than the drivers as they are so damn easy to overtake. However if your car sucks balls, it makes it incredibly boring. The Fiat Seasonal was hard, not for overtaking, but rather just your ability to make every corner perfect which is totally unrealistic.

You ARE racing the clock. That is what all racing is. Who sets the best lap time consistently over and over again?

Also, track driving is about consistency. It's the most boring thing ever. It's repeating the exact same car motions perfectly over and over again. That's what gets you consistency. It's not unrealistic.

The main redeeming feature about GT5 is that the cars handle just like the real thing. As a game though, it is more a tech demo with a few features slapped on for good measure. They don't even have a real damage engine, which is a cardinal sin in racing sims. When you crash against other cars or walls, it is still like bumper cars, unrealistic to the extreme. I do not buy the excuse of licensing as a reason for no damage and the ridiculously long production time.

Licensing is not THE reason for no damage and long development time. It is one of many numerous reasons.

That is the reality of business. Everyone has a specific job, and trying to find information from them and subsequently work with them is like trying to pull teeth from a m'fing horse. On top of that, everyone has their own specific demands that you have to meet, or else you don't get to use their stuff.

Then your boss has his demands. Your customer has his demands. Everyone wants something different.

And finally, after meeting everyone's demands, you end up with your own demands. What about this hodge podge of demands meet your own expectations and vision?

This is what ultimately will cause long delays. Like I said..., some people should try running a business. Everyone I know would LOVE to be their own boss..., but I am the only one that I know of with my own company.

P.S. >> I'd like to add, that NONE of your complaints would exist if Kaz had just kept his mouth shut. That, I feel, is his mistake. He spoke too early, and got people's hopes up too high. If he had just quietly worked on the game, and then released it (with a month long period of heavy marketing prior), no one would complain, because they haven't been set up to believe the promises he failed to deliver.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

This is what ultimately will cause long delays. Like I said..., some people should try running a business. Everyone I know would LOVE to be their own boss..., but I am the only one that I know of with my own company.

I've been a princple owner in a business for 25 yrs.

Being your own Boss is a fallacy, at least for the most part.
You just have more Bosses in reality.
The customers, the books, the bank balance, employee management, IRS etc, etc.

 

[dothackRAVE]

I've been a princple owner in a business for 25 yrs.

Being your own Boss is a fallacy, at least for the most part.
You just have more Bosses in reality.
The customers, the books, the bank balance, employee management, IRS etc, etc.

Don't forget investors.

But you are your own boss in the sense that you could always tell all these people to stuff it (you'll suffer the consequences though), and not get fired for it.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Don't forget investors.

But you are your own boss in the sense that you could always tell all these people to stuff it (you'll suffer the consequences though), and not get fired for it.

Yeah, you won't get fired, but you may be shortly "unemployed".

Oh, I almost forgot, there is no drawing unemployment for the owner/officers.

 

[dothackRAVE]

Yeah, you won't get fired, but you may be shortly "unemployed".

And then the banks come in and repossess pretty much everything you own thanks to your outstanding $100,000 business loan.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

This conversation reminds me of what my Boss told me 25yrs. ago when I left his company to go in business:

"It ain't all its cracked up to be, but I guess it beats working for somebody else."

I've found over the years, thats a pretty apt descriptive.

 

[Scaff]

Arrogant? If you say so.
Online play with NFS Shift was far more enjoyable than GT5's, in every way, aside from driving physics.... but... Even GT5's physics are different online, so, what does that leave?
NFS was faster, cars didn't jump around the track looking as though they'd just crashed for no reason, it took less than an hour (exaggeration) to find decent lobby, etc.
Between the two, it's not a matter of opinion, the NFS online setup was better overall, features for either aside, it worked properly.

More enjoyable for you does not make it a fact for everyone else.

If you wish to use Shift as an example don't forget that it has its own issues with physics. different physics and input for drift events and the problem with cars 'bouncing' on certain tracks in the original game that made it almost unplayable.

Feature sets also don't make something automatically more enjoyable, enjoyment is not measurable in that manner. Another example would be the difference between COD and Battlefield on-line, COD offers far more features for its on-line side, however you will find a massive number of people (myself included) would would be quite happy to say that doesn't make it the more enjoyable game on-line.

Keep in mind that I'm not denying that your opinion is right, I'm simply saying you can't then take that and apply it to everyone.

I've also you will notice not actually stated at all if I agree or disagree with you in regard to GT, I've simply stated that opinion does not equal fact.

Depends. How many people think there's enough A-Spec events? How many people think the A-Spec points system is well implemented? How many people like the paint system?
So I'd say it depends on if you're looking to have a majority ruling on every detail, or just obvious ones.
Maybe the 13 year old tuning setup?

Define 'enough'.
Define 'well implemented'
Define 'like'

Again you are taking vague opinion based statements and attempting to turn them into measurable facts and then use them to state that others are wrong.

That depends on what the opinion is based on.

No it doesn't, an opinion does need to be based on anything quantifiable or measurable.

Its akin to telling someone they are wrong for liking or disliking something, like the utterly horrible Celery which I dis-like to a huge degree and my wife loves. Neither of us are 'wrong' about this, to try and state different would be ridiculous.

A bit like trying to say that those who still find GT enjoyable even after trying other games are wrong.......

If you find "every aspect of the game enjoyable" then you haven't experienced how much better some of it could be. Simple as that, and no offense intended.

So they didn't already have license's for the 700+ cars in GT4 banked already? And the cars from GT5P, and GT PSP? Do you know this for a fact?

These were used as excuses for the game taking so long, and possibly why they can't take advantage of a larger staff..

You are aware that licences are always time and title limited?

As I mentioned earlier I have direct experience in this regard, so I am in this case talking from a factual viewpoint not one of conjecture.

So do you have any thoughts on whether or not PD should increase staff size to regain their status as the elite console driving game? If so, what does any of this have to do with it?

What does this have to do with anything?

Nothing in particular other than being a reply to this comment you made....

If you find "every aspect of the game enjoyable" then you haven't experienced how much better some of it could be. Simple as that, and no offense intended.

...so if you have an issue with my commenting on this then you should ask yourself why you made the above statement if you didn't want or expect replies to it.

Sorry but trying to call me out for replying to a statement you made strikes me as more than a little odd.

Kimi - FYI, the series has sold roughly 63 million, GT5 makes up 6.3 of that, out of essentially 6 games, 1/10th of the sales. True, it will continue to sell some copies, but it'll be the lowest in the series, undoubtedly.

This is an rather excellent example of the issue in question. You have quite clearly stated an opinion as fact.

No one has a way of knowing exactly how many copies GT5 will sell in its entire production life, not even PD (they will have estimates and those will be reviewed and amended over time), yet you have stated quite categorically (the use of the word undoubtedly makes that much clear) that it will be the lowest in the series.

Would you care to enlighten us as to how you know, without any doubt that GT5 will be the lowest selling title in the entire series?

I would also caution you that the sales figure you have used as a total (of 63 million) already includes no fewer than four titles that GT5 has outsold...

http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html

...because the 63 million includes GT PSP, GT:C, GT4P and GT5P.

Take those away and you have 52.67 million, quite a different figure and puts GT5 sales (given that its been out for less than a year) into a more realistic perspective.

Will GT5 sell the least of the 'main' titles? Who knows?

No one for a fact, but given the sales already I wouldn't bet against it.



Scaff

 

[another_jakhole]

👍

Thank you.

 

[KopparbergDave]

One does have to wonder what took so long, and while the time-scales involved just for modelling one car are ridiculous, and they only have so many artists, you have to think maybe they could have a few more staff just for modelling. I am surprised though that in this day and age why PD has to model anything, if they have licensing deals with the manufacturers which included mirroring the shape and likeness of the cars to a fine detail, why can't the car companies just give them their original CAD files for the modern cars, which could be brought into the game with a very miniml amount of effort... I do wonder about this... anyone know why this isn't the case and artists need to painstakingly re-create these cars in the game...?

 

[CSLACR]

I wouldn't be so sure of the last bit. It can easily sell another few million copies over the years. If it sells 3M more, it's on par with GT2. Another way to look at it is by adding the Prologue and final release sales. GT4 + GT4P stands at 12.46M in that case, while GT5 + GT5P hits 11.32M. Admittedly GT4P and GT5P are different beasts, but the numbers show the GT brand is still as strong as ever.

20K a week are current sales rate, and it just "jumped" up to that, from what I read.

More enjoyable for you does not make it a fact for everyone else.

If you wish to use Shift as an example don't forget that it has its own issues with physics. different physics and input for drift events and the problem with cars 'bouncing' on certain tracks in the original game that made it almost unplayable.

Shift's physics were awful.
My reference to shift is customization, which was sadly more detailed in settings, and online actually worked.

Feature sets also don't make something automatically more enjoyable, enjoyment is not measurable in that manner. Another example would be the difference between COD and Battlefield on-line, COD offers far more features for its on-line side, however you will find a massive number of people (myself included) would would be quite happy to say that doesn't make it the more enjoyable game on-line.

Keep in mind that I'm not denying that your opinion is right, I'm simply saying you can't then take that and apply it to everyone.

Very true, but many of the common features the GT series has never had, are commonplace in racing games, particularly painting, livery, (which I don't even care for), properly functioning online play, and nowadays typically better tuning options.

I've also you will notice not actually stated at all if I agree or disagree with you in regard to GT, I've simply stated that opinion does not equal fact.

I noticed.

Define 'enough'.
Define 'well implemented'
Define 'like'

Again you are taking vague opinion based statements and attempting to turn them into measurable facts and then use them to state that others are wrong.

Yes, I'm taking experience from other games, and if other games are commonly doing something better, or in some cases, at all, then it has to be better.
It may be opinion, but I've yet to hear an opinion that says GT5 online is play is stable in any fashion, and I've yet to hear an opinion that the A-Spec system is good.
When those opinions arise, along with others, then there will be a difference of opinion. As of now there's not.

No it doesn't, an opinion does need to be based on anything quantifiable or measurable.

Its akin to telling someone they are wrong for liking or disliking something, like the utterly horrible Celery which I dis-like to a huge degree and my wife loves. Neither of us are 'wrong' about this, to try and state different would be ridiculous.

True, but we're not talking about celery, we're talking about whether having to buy a car to get a color of paint is akin to a real paint shop, and other things directly comparable, most if not all of which are not personal taste, if anything, maybe a matter of how much each individual cares about different features.
If I'm given celery, I'm going to be highly upset.
If I'm given celery and meat I will not be upset.
If I'm given a feature in a game I don't care about, I won't be upset unless they left other things out because of that feature.

A bit like trying to say that those who still find GT enjoyable even after trying other games are wrong.......

I still enjoy GT5, so no. But given 6 years instead of 2, I expect more, not just more in some areas and less in others.

You are aware that licences are always time and title limited?

As I mentioned earlier I have direct experience in this regard, so I am in this case talking from a factual viewpoint not one of conjecture.

I am aware, but going into GT4 seasoned veterans, I highly doubt PD is re-licensing cars every 2-3 years, NFS and FM would, if at all possible, yank them as "exclusives" like they did with so many other great cars.
So I have to be hopeful and tell myself they've smartened up and started either doing the same, or getting longer licenses.

So do you have any thoughts on whether or not PD should increase staff size to regain their status as the elite console driving game? If so, what does any of this have to do with it?

What does this have to do with anything?

Maybe the thread topic?

...so if you have an issue with my commenting on this then you should ask yourself why you made the above statement if you didn't want or expect replies to it.

Sorry but trying to call me out for replying to a statement you made strikes me as more than a little odd.

Not sure where you got the idea I have a problem with replies, or how you determined I'm trying to "call you out."

This is an rather excellent example of the issue in question. You have quite clearly stated an opinion as fact.

No one has a way of knowing exactly how many copies GT5 will sell in its entire production life, not even PD (they will have estimates and those will be reviewed and amended over time), yet you have stated quite categorically (the use of the word undoubtedly makes that much clear) that it will be the lowest in the series.

Would you care to enlighten us as to how you know, without any doubt that GT5 will be the lowest selling title in the entire series?

I would also caution you that the sales figure you have used as a total (of 63 million) already includes no fewer than four titles that GT5 has outsold...

http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html

...because the 63 million includes GT PSP, GT:C, GT4P and GT5P.

Take those away and you have 52.67 million, quite a different figure and puts GT5 sales (given that its been out for less than a year) into a more realistic perspective.

Will GT5 sell the least of the 'main' titles? Who knows?

No one for a fact, but given the sales already I wouldn't bet against it.

Scaff

Call it opinion if you like, I call it mathematics.
Currently selling 20K a week.
http://www.vgchartz.com/yearly.php
Average sales per week in 2011 - 34K
That's starting only a few weeks after release, And even if we're most generous, at 34 thousand a week, it would take almost 2 years to reach any other full GT game.
A more accurate possibillity would be 15-20K a week, and the game ending sales around 7 million. But speculation and optimism are up to each individual.

And no, I won't be adding GT5P and GT5 together and calling it "GT5 success"

The real story will be told when and if PD can manage a GT6 for PS3, and I do mean IF. Then we'll see how many have been put off the series even farther by GT5. (compared to the prospective loss in all the time to release GT5)
I can only imagine the poor consumers that bought GT5 and have no internet to download the fixes.

I do enjoy GT5, as I've enjoyed every GT game I've played, including HD and GT5P. The difference is unless they start changing, Gran Turismo may no longer be a console-decision maker as it was for PS2 and PS3.
Those fortunate enough to just buy all of it will undoubtedly continue, it's those of us that have to choose one system that Sony & PD should be catering too, in a business sense.

...

Is your company named Polyphony Digital? While your post could have merit for GT1, 2, hell maybe GT3, comparing starting a business vs a globally known company acquiring licenses, is not something that will get you the response you're looking for.

 

[DawgCCCP]

I think Licensing has nothing to with long development time of gt5, since they already more or less license for cars from prologue. And after all I don't think it would take them a long time to get licenses from Japanese Car companies. I can imagine with the EU and US car companies.

But I still think getting a bit bigger team would be much better, even good freelancers would deliver insane work for example modeling only cars, there for we would have nothing like standard cars..

 

[deep_sky]

Yeah, you probably don't want to use VGCartz numbers CSLACR , they're pretty unreliable.

However, Sony say they shipped 3.9 million copies of GT5 to Europe by the end of 2010, yet the Develop numbers for best selling European games has GT5 at just over 2 million copies sold. So...where did the other 1.9 million go?

5 Gran Turismo 5 (Sony) - 2,007,907

http://content.yudu.com/A1sg82/MCV03062011/resources/61.htm

 

[Smoothherb]

What about outsourcing stuff like tracks or sound...
I don´t know if it would work.
I love what GT5 is and I also love the monthly FREE updates and stuff. But GT5 honestly took to long for what it is.

 

[Kryz11]

I can't believe some people defend PD for having SMALL staff for such a HUGE game!

Get real, GT is the biggest franchise and they can afford 300 easily. more guys more game at faster rate

 

[Scaff]

Yes, I'm taking experience from other games, and if other games are commonly doing something better, or in some cases, at all, then it has to be better.
It may be opinion, but I've yet to hear an opinion that says GT5 online is play is stable in any fashion, and I've yet to hear an opinion that the A-Spec system is good.
When those opinions arise, along with others, then there will be a difference of opinion. As of now there's not.

So you are saying that not one single member has ever said that they have no issue with the A-spec mode?

Strange because I've moderated plenty of arguments here with people stating both sides of the story. In fact pick any part of any GT game and the same would be true (hell scratch that pick any part of any game).

True, but we're not talking about celery, we're talking about whether having to buy a car to get a color of paint is akin to a real paint shop, and other things directly comparable, most if not all of which are not personal taste, if anything, maybe a matter of how much each individual cares about different features.
If I'm given celery, I'm going to be highly upset.
If I'm given celery and meat I will not be upset.
If I'm given a feature in a game I don't care about, I won't be upset unless they left other things out because of that feature.

I still enjoy GT5, so no. But given 6 years instead of 2, I expect more, not just more in some areas and less in others.

Sorry but I still do not see anything here that falls outside of the definition of opinion.

I am aware, but going into GT4 seasoned veterans, I highly doubt PD is re-licensing cars every 2-3 years, NFS and FM would, if at all possible, yank them as "exclusives" like they did with so many other great cars.
So I have to be hopeful and tell myself they've smartened up and started either doing the same, or getting longer licenses.

Game producers do not set the time frame or limits for licences, the manufactures do.

I can categorically state that at least two of the manufacturers in the GT series (and to that you can add any other racing title they are involved in) will only licence for a single game at a time. I can also quite comfortably state that this practice is not uncommon among manufacturers.

Maybe the thread topic?


Not sure where you got the idea I have a problem with replies, or how you determined I'm trying to "call you out."

What lead me to that belief?

Well it could be the point of you taking issue with what I posted and why I posted it.

Call it opinion if you like, I call it mathematics.
Currently selling 20K a week.
http://www.vgchartz.com/yearly.php
Average sales per week in 2011 - 34K
That's starting only a few weeks after release, And even if we're most generous, at 34 thousand a week, it would take almost 2 years to reach any other full GT game.
A more accurate possibillity would be 15-20K a week, and the game ending sales around 7 million. But speculation and optimism are up to each individual.

All from your source:
GT unit sales to date = 6,279,175
Yearly = 992,690
Weeks on sale = 29

6,279,175 / 29 = 216,523 copies per week (average).

Now your 34k per week for 2011, which you have got by assuming the weeks figure is for 2011 (992,690 / 29 = 34,230). A couple of problems with that, the first being that we are only in week 23 of 2011 (for their figures) and the other being that 2011 doesn't have 166 weeks (see Super Mario Kart). So a closer weekly average for 2011 would be 43,160 (992,690 / 23).

Now it is currently shifting around 20K per week (actually just for the last week - but we can overlook that), but a quick look at almost any racing title (I used FM3 in this case) and sale hit a fairly steady rate of around that per week at the 30-ish week point. They also don't remain at a flat rate. A quick trip to the land of Classic/Platinum (call it what you will dependent on market) and sales can potentially increase.

So given that it could overtake GT2 total sales in a less than two years, none of which changes the fact that you stated it would never sell more than any GT title that made the 63 million total. You see it matters not one bit if I'm right or wrong, as I'm not the one making claims of 100% certainty.

You stated

Kimi - FYI, the series has sold roughly 63 million, GT5 makes up 6.3 of that, out of essentially 6 games, 1/10th of the sales. True, it will continue to sell some copies, but it'll be the lowest in the series, undoubtedly.

That would be the lowest in the series despite selling more than four of the games in the series, you can try and argue that GT PSP, GT:C, GT4P and GT5P don't count, but if that's the case why did you state 63 million when these 4 total approx 10 million units? You can't use the figures one way and then another in the same sentence and not expect people to question it.


Using maths to prove a point only works until you understand that statistics can be used to 'prove' almost anything you want.

And no, I won't be adding GT5P and GT5 together and calling it "GT5 success"

Good for you, I never any otherwise.

However here's a handy exercise for you, find me another console sim racer and let me know if its sold more than GT5 has to date.

That's the measure Sony and its shareholders will use for success, once you've do that present me with a valid argument that Sony could put to its shareholders as to a need to invest more money in PD (which is what a head-count increase would require) given that its shifts more units and therefore brings in more top line revenue than any other racing sim on console (and any console at that).

The real story will be told when and if PD can manage a GT6 for PS3, and I do mean IF. Then we'll see how many have been put off the series even farther by GT5. (compared to the prospective loss in all the time to release GT5)
I can only imagine the poor consumers that bought GT5 and have no internet to download the fixes.

I do enjoy GT5, as I've enjoyed every GT game I've played, including HD and GT5P. The difference is unless they start changing, Gran Turismo may no longer be a console-decision maker as it was for PS2 and PS3.
Those fortunate enough to just buy all of it will undoubtedly continue, it's those of us that have to choose one system that Sony & PD should be catering too, in a business sense.

Given that it could well overtake GT2 figures, a title that was roundly slated for being full of bugs and issues (and for which we had no option to download any patches), I would say its as close to a done deal as you can get that we will see GT6. If it ends up on the PS3 is yet to be seen, but once again in my opinion its very likely.

You also mention all the people who lost interest because of the delays and the wait, yet as a title it shifted 2.3 million worldwide in its first week of launch, which would not indicate a lot of people being put off, given that many console sim title will fail to sell that many worldwide for the entire lifespan.


Oh and in closing a quick reality check for you. I argue the above points not because I'm a GT fanboy, I actually find GT5 reasonably disappointing in a lot of ways and find Shift 2 a far more enjoyable game, however I have a pathological dislike of opinion passed off as fact.


Scaff

 

[CSLACR]

Yeah, you probably don't want to use VGCartz numbers CSLACR , they're pretty unreliable.

However, Sony say they shipped 3.9 million copies of GT5 to Europe by the end of 2010, yet the Develop numbers for best selling European games has GT5 at just over 2 million copies sold. So...where did the other 1.9 million go?

5 Gran Turismo 5 (Sony) - 2,007,907

http://content.yudu.com/A1sg82/MCV03062011/resources/61.htm

Shipped to many expecting more sales? Assuming if they shipped xxx, they must have sold more than xxx, in the first month of release would be a little much.

So you are saying that not one single member has ever said that they have no issue with the A-spec mode?

Not that I've seen, no. And does that change anything? What determines "quality" if not popular vote?
Since it is subjective to preference popular vote is the only thing that can define it as better, or worse quality.

Sorry but I still do not see anything here that falls outside of the definition of opinion.

See Above.

Game producers do not set the time frame or limits for licences, the manufactures do.

I can categorically state that at least two of the manufacturers in the GT series (and to that you can add any other racing title they are involved in) will only licence for a single game at a time. I can also quite comfortably state that this practice is not uncommon among manufacturers.

Well if that's the case with a majority, maybe they should have hired more people, which is the reason these extra bits were brought in.
If licensing is what held them up, maybe they should have acquired less licenses, and made more premium models.
That's what this is about, after all.

I also believe the process is likely easier second time around, otherwise I don't see the reason for always (since GT4, at least) keeping every single car. They haven't lost a car in over the 6 years between GT4 and 5. Between 4, HD, GT5P, and GT5.

What lead me to that belief?

Well it could be the point of you taking issue with what I posted and why I posted it.

I took issue to the use of the word "arrogant", not the reply, the demeanor.

All from your source:
GT unit sales to date = 6,279,175
Yearly = 992,690
Weeks on sale = 29

6,279,175 / 29 = 216,523 copies per week (average).

Now your 34k per week for 2011, which you have got by assuming the weeks figure is for 2011 (992,690 / 29 = 34,230). A couple of problems with that, the first being that we are only in week 23 of 2011 (for their figures) and the other being that 2011 doesn't have 166 weeks (see Super Mario Kart). So a closer weekly average for 2011 would be 43,160 (992,690 / 23).

Now it is currently shifting around 20K per week (actually just for the last week - but we can overlook that), but a quick look at almost any racing title (I used FM3 in this case) and sale hit a fairly steady rate of around that per week at the 30-ish week point. They also don't remain at a flat rate. A quick trip to the land of Classic/Platinum (call it what you will dependent on market) and sales can potentially increase.

Ok, I see I made an error in calculations.
Here's what we can do:
I say no more than 7.5M
You and anyone else is welcome to expect more, I'm saying you're wrong if you do.
I don't see how you or anyone would take offense to that. I don't think there's any chance on this earth or next.
Perhaps you are the one taking issue with my opinion?

So given that it could overtake GT2 total sales in a less than two years, none of which changes the fact that you stated it would never sell more than any GT title that made the 63 million total. You see it matters not one bit if I'm right or wrong, as I'm not the one making claims of 100% certainty.

I don't agree that it can. I am certain, time will tell. Taking issue with my certainty in my opinion, it seems?

You stated
That would be the lowest in the series despite selling more than four of the games in the series, you can try and argue that GT PSP, GT:C, GT4P and GT5P don't count, but if that's the case why did you state 63 million when these 4 total approx 10 million units? You can't use the figures one way and then another in the same sentence and not expect people to question it.

I didn't notice I did it. I never had a problem with those figures questioned. I'd still like to know why you are assuming I'm offended, or "don't expect" people to question it. You are questioning it, and that's fine.

Using maths to prove a point only works until you understand that statistics can be used to 'prove' almost anything you want.

It's not "proof" of any amount the game will sell, it's what gives me certainty it won't surpass the 8 million mark. Maybe I'll eat my words, but I don't think there's a chance I will.

However here's a handy exercise for you, find me another console sim racer and let me know if its sold more than GT5 has to date.

Depends how you look at it. If you view "racing games" in general, to include the NFS series, they're at 8 million, on the PS3 alone.

That's the measure Sony and its shareholders will use for success, once you've do that present me with a valid argument that Sony could put to its shareholders as to a need to invest more money in PD (which is what a head-count increase would require) given that its shifts more units and therefore brings in more top line revenue than any other racing sim on console (and any console at that).

Because they did better in the past.

Given that it could well overtake GT2 figures, a title that was roundly slated for being full of bugs and issues (and for which we had no option to download any patches), I would say its as close to a done deal as you can get that we will see GT6. If it ends up on the PS3 is yet to be seen, but once again in my opinion its very likely.

I agree GT6 will be PS3, but I cannot say enough how I don't think there's a chance it will pass GT2 in sales.

You also mention all the people who lost interest because of the delays and the wait, yet as a title it shifted 2.3 million worldwide in its first week of launch, which would not indicate a lot of people being put off, given that many console sim title will fail to sell that many worldwide for the entire lifespan.

No, the opposite. Because of the long wait, everyone that was waiting since the PS3 came out bought it asap.
It's the first GT game I've ever gotten on opening day. Not surprisingly it's the first time they didn't only have limited quantities available.
It's also the game some of us were dying to see the second we saw GT3.

Oh and in closing a quick reality check for you. I argue the above points not because I'm a GT fanboy, I actually find GT5 reasonably disappointing in a lot of ways and find Shift 2 a far more enjoyable game, however I have a pathological dislike of opinion passed off as fact.

Scaff

I never thought you were a fanboy. And if you look around I'm not the only one that believes in their opinions enough to propose them with certainty.
See the difference in two sentences, that mean almost the same?
opinion passed off as fact.
opinion passed off with certainty.

 

[ScouserInExile]

I think Licensing has nothing to with long development time of gt5, since they already more or less license for cars from prologue. And after all I don't think it would take them a long time to get licenses from Japanese Car companies. I can imagine with the EU and US car companies.

The thing is with licencing, is that it's not just a case of "is it alright if we use your car in our games?" Sincve these cars are the lifeblood of the manufacturers, they want to keep very tight controls on the way they are represented in all media. Throughout development, PD will have been checking with the manufacturers of all the cars they have used in the game that they are happy with what they were doing with their cars in the game. These manufacturers will want to know that the car looks right, handles right, has the right power and weight, is the right size, that the game doesn;t allow you to do anything weird to their baby and so on. They will want to be able to check these things themselves and will have a lengthy approval process before the game could be relesed containing their cars.

I worked on a game years ago that licenced cars fromn a single manufacturer, who I won't name here. They had what looked like some very reasonable requirements for using their products. Stuff like if we wanted to use Mustangs, we had to have Kas in the game as well, which isn't that bad, in reality. What started to cause problems was that they had to approve the release version of the game, which seems alright on the surface of things, but when v1.0 failed QA at Sony, V1.1 had to be sent to the car manufacturer for re-approval before it could be sent to Sony for their QA process.

Now multiply that by the number of manufacturers in GT5 and you can see why the licences could slow the release...

But I still think getting a bit bigger team would be much better, even good freelancers would deliver insane work for example modeling only cars, there for we would have nothing like standard cars..

I can't believe some people defend PD for having SMALL staff for such a HUGE game!

Get real, GT is the biggest franchise and they can afford 300 easily. more guys more game at faster rate

I maintain that throwing staff at the problem isn't the answer. You would start to lose quality when you involved more people in the art side of things. Plus you would have to bui;ld in more layers of management to control the quality of the assets. And it makes hitting milest0ones a lot harder when you need so many people to deliver on time...

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I maintain that throwing staff at the problem isn't the answer. You would start to lose quality when you involved more people in the art side of things. Plus you would have to bui;ld in more layers of management to control the quality of the assets. And it makes hitting milest0ones a lot harder when you need so many people to deliver on time...

Assuming pure production capability verses time is the problem, and PD has already maximised its exsisting resources, adding staff or outsourcing is the only solution.

The trick of course, is doing so without losing quailty.
Management changes if need be, are all part of that equation.

 

[another_jakhole]

Assuming pure production capability verses time is the problem, and PD has already maximised its exsisting resources, adding staff or outsourcing is the only solution.

Outsourcing! But I think they already do some outsourcing. How much? I don't know. I'm not entirely sure outsourcing would be as easily done as we may think it is. Also, the numbers of workers. Of course, PD could have 300 workers. I'm thinking they could have over 1000 workers because of how long they've been a legitimate developer. It just doesn't make it certain that hiring 100s of more workers is logical.

Not that this thread is pointless, because the arguments have been insightful/refreshing, but like so many threads the question being asked isn't entirely possible to come up with a factual answer. ScouserInExile is one of the people that knows something about what PD has to go through with such things, but it doesn't mean he knows the inner-workings of another game developer. PD, a game developer that goes through THEE licensing hell. ScouserInExile just knows about the lobby of licensing hell. Hope that last bit made sense.

Besides, NOW, 800 standard cars has really been put into perspective.

Most cars in a racing video game

The racing game that features more cars than any other is Gran Turismo 5 (Sony, 2010), which has a staggering 1,000 licensed vehicles from the world''s top manufacturers. All of the 1,000 cars are included on the game disc, and downloadable content is expected to increase this number even further.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/search/Details/Most-cars-in-a-racing-video-game/65982.htm

 

[SuperCobraJet]

A thousand cars alone, does not a great GT make.

Its only logical that the more cars, then the more events are needed to use them in.

The 1000 car declaration of glory, reminds me of one of my comments on GT5.

"All dressed up and no place to go"

 

[BWX]

LOL- All dressed up and no place to go. GT5 in a nutshell.

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

LOL- All dressed up and no place to go. GT5 in a nutshell.

Gran Turismo: The Real Racing Track Day Simulator


Then again, I don't think GT has ever focused on racing, even when it was a completely singleplayer experience.

Maybe my love of GT5 comes from the fact that it's just a giant car sandbox where you can make online what you want from it. No, it isn't a very good game. I think a majority of gamers hate sandbox play as well.

 

[BWX]

Well anyway, I was thinking more of A-Spec with above comment that I agreed with.

 

[Devedander]

I have heard a lot of reasons and most of them seem to have big holes in them...

1: It costs more. Sure it costs more... but not per unit of work. If you have 1 guy paint your house it costs you less per hour/day than having 4 guys paint your house, but at the end of it all it takes him 4 times longer (at least) so really it doesn't cost more. In fact usually the 4 guys will get it done for less than the 1 guy since there is a lot that's hard to do by yourself. Same can be said for a lot to do with game development.

2: Workforce is not what slowed GT5 down. PD is renowned for putting in long hard days of work... if you are keeping all your workers busy most of the time then having more workers will get you to the same point faster. The only way more workers wouldn't get the job done faster is if they were underutilizing the workers they have (ie paying some ofthem to stand around) which makes it just a poorly run show. I don't find that likely and if it was that's just another problem.

3: Kaz is a perfectinist. This line has been pulled so long and I am truly amazed after seeing what came out with GT5 that anyone dares utter it anymore let along trumpet it. GT5 is far from perfect in so many ways that perfectionism can't even be hinted at in conjunction with GT5.

3b. But... but... 2 more years! And this isn't exactly why you need more workers? If you are painting a house with 4 guys and it gets dark before you get done leaving you to say "I wanted 2 more hours to paint!" that's a sign you needed more guys.

The doublespeak is thick sometimes... seriously with all the bragging about premium models that take months to create and things that had to be cut, it just screams "could have used more manpower!".

That's not even touching on things like the Kart racing that were apparently meant for GT6 and already being worked on...