Why Kaz needs to go...

[Imari]

I'll bite. Tell me another racing game developer who's games have routinely broken the 10 million sales mark.

Nintendo.

 

[Vagabond]

Nintendo.

Dear God, what a crock this thread is.
...
Quit crying

Although it seems to be a fashionable theme for some to feel they have the right to dictate how others voice their opinions, the fact is they don't. Stop doing it and don't pretend you aren't aware of how inflammatory it is; that is, in fact the sole reason for saying it, isn't it?

None.

Gran Turismo is not a racing game

This too. A pointless statement about something that is purely personal opinion, designed to cause further agitation.

 

[Imari]

I also found it amusing that Mario Kart was the only thing to even come close.


Early Need for Speeds sold well, and they sort of peaked around about Underground, but they never really approached 10 million.

After Mario, GT and NFS it's Forza, and that's down in the 5 million slots.

GT and Mario are totally in a class of their own. And I don't think that should be totally ignored. It may seem like I was being facetious, but that there's only two racing games that sell that well suggests that they might have some things in common.

I now expect several empassioned posts completely missing the point of this, but such is life.


I think it's a special combination of factors that make a brand as powerful as GT. iPhones these days don't really have much technically over the opposition any more, but because they built such a strong brand early on when they WERE extremely dominant, they retain a massive market share today.

I feel that Gran Turismo is similar. It's not necessarily about the game, because we've seen similar games flop completely (Enthusia), or struggle to take hold even on their own platform (Forza). It's difficult to distinguish now how much of the sales of GT are due to pure brand power, and how much due to it being a really exceptional game that meets the consumers needs.


That, or there's some magic thing that Gran Turismo and Mario Kart have in common. Early Gran Turismo I would actually say is remarkably similar to Mario Kart. Yes, blasphemy. It was just a fun driving game with everyday cars, and that was enough. I still enjoy GT1 every now and then, it's great fun.

It's totally different to something like GT6 though. GT6 is trying to be a simulator. GT1 really wasn't, except as lip service. Even by the standards of the day, it was a simple racer dressed up with the trappings of simulation. It was marketing guff, and that was fine.


Mario Kart is similar to GT1 in that way, they both went straight for the fun aspect of driving. I suspect GT6 (and GT5) are getting caught up in their own propaganda of what the game should be, and maybe losing sight of the goal of making something that's just fun.

Fun is what made GT1 great. The pure fun of driving your car. And that's still the passion that you hear from Kaz when he speaks, he finds driving to be intensely enjoyable and wants to share this with people. I'm just not sure the way he's going about it is a particularly good way to help others feel that same delight for driving and cars.

Obviously some gamers do when playing GT6, but I think it's clear from the responses on GTP that there's a significant group of people who aren't feeling that delight. Maybe they're just more vocal than they were, but it does seem like that group is growing.

 

[frenzal]

Mario Kart is similar to GT1 in that way, they both went straight for the fun aspect of driving. I suspect GT6 (and GT5) are getting caught up in their own propaganda of what the game should be, and maybe losing sight of the goal of making something that's just fun.

And when there are avenues of fun which inadvertently show up e.g. the off-road driving at Willow Springs which wasn't compromising the game play of other users, they shut it down with the application of quicksand.

With regards to the topic question (which to be honest I personally find offensive but that's just my opinion), removing the creative head would not I thunik achieve anything of relevaNCE to the major issues now enveloping the franchise.

 

[ShiftingGears]

With regards to the topic question (which to be honest I personally find offensive but that's just my opinion), removing the creative head would not I thunik achieve anything of relevaNCE to the major issues now enveloping the franchise.

He's the CEO of Polyphony Digital and the Producer of GT games. Managing the company is his job.

 

[synon]

It's a free market, if Kaz is doing such a bad job with PD then there is ample opportunity for competitors to come in. The fact that there hasn't really been a competitor for 15 years suggests that perhaps it is not quite that easy.

 

[Imari]

It's a free market, if Kaz is doing such a bad job with PD then there is ample opportunity for competitors to come in. The fact that there hasn't really been a competitor for 15 years suggests that perhaps it is not quite that easy.

There have been other games that have been at least on a similar level to GT, but they never achieved even a fraction of the success that GT did.

I think that suggests that there's more going on with GT's success than simply making a good game.

 

[frenzal]

He's the CEO of Polyphony Digital and the Producer of GT games. Managing the company is his job.

Yes, that is true. And while the buck stops with him I would think that not all ideas implemented are his alone even though he may very well have final say on what is given to the paying public. And it is more than likely that Sony would have a major say in when PD is 'urged' to ship the game to market despite at what stage of development the game is at. So removing one person alone is unlikely to make the difference required of the finished product.

 

[TenEightyOne]

$25?! Where on earth did you get it from for that price?

But with all the complaints... they sold it again, right?

 

[jimipitbull]

But with all the complaints... they sold it again, right?

Wait... so if you buy GT6 second hand, you can't really blame PD. The original buyer could, but not the next buyer.
So he/she should blame the original buyer?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Wait... so if you buy GT6 second hand, you can't really blame PD. The original buyer could, but not the next buyer.
So he/she should blame the original buyer?

Eh?

If you paid $50 for the game, hated it, sold it for $25, then you have $25, that's all. It was just a bit of lateral thinking...

 

[Azure Flare]

While I do believe that PD (the whole company is not Kazunori Yamauchi in the same way that Jordon Jorden Jordan is not GTPlanet) needs a wake-up call, having 1 man leave what he started over a delayed update and other crap everyone is complaining about will not solve any problems.

Besides, I have faith in PD.

 

[jimipitbull]

Eh?

If you paid $50 for the game, hated it, sold it for $25, then you have $25, that's all. It was just a bit of lateral thinking...

Sorry man, I thought this was the blame Kaz thread, and you were trying to shift that blame for 2nd hand copies.

My mistake.

 

[fatkid]

Dear God, what a crock this thread is.

"If I hired a builder and he didn't do what I wanted etc. waaah", yes yes, so hire Kaz to make GT7 for you.

"Wasted time making a film instead of fixing the sounds", yeeesss, because he was in it AND making it and doing the things he was doing in it just for the film. Including the clever stunt in the introduction where he spent 15 years making Gran Turismo.

Y'all got a great game for, what, $25? Seems pretty cheap to me. Quit crying

If I ordered smoked salmon, I don't expect a tuna paste sandwich! It is not about how much money it costs, but about coming good on promises. PD have made promises on certain features with GT5 and have failed. As of this moment they haven't come good on promised features for GT6 and we don't know if they will. But I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Even though my patience is being severely tested at this moment in time.

I paid full price for on pre order for the Signature Edition of GT5 and the collectors edition of GT6. Not $25. Does that me give me more of a right to have an opinion on the franchise then someone who brought the regular versions or for just $25 - no. But as a paying customer my money is as good as anyone's.

The money itself isn't the issue. It is about getting what you paid for. In GT5 I don't feel I did. In GT6, I knew I would have to wait, but it just feels like deja vu to me. And PD's current silence hs done nothing reverse that feeling in me.

All of us that visit this website with one thing in common; we care, or have or have one time cared for this franchise. Hate to sound like a bit of a romantic, but it is shame to see the decline of a once magnificent creature. It feels like GT has been put out to graze pasture. I hope it can find it's strength and run again, but I fear for the future. I feel it is being left behind in the fields.

For all you that feel that Kaz is indispensable. I ask you this;

What do you think that Yamauchi-San still brings to the GT franchise as a whole that can't be replicated by other creators? I don't know how much input he has. But the only features GT6 offers in it's current state is; star constellations and moon missions. PC and Xbox racers have left them behind on other more essential features. And PD and GT have had a big headstart on alot of those.

My love for GT has been hurt. Maybe irreparably. I sincerely hope PD can prove me wrong. This is one time I would be happy to. I am sure their plenty of others like me. But things don't look good as of yet.

I believe all, if not most of us on here, want GT to reign again. We all want the best experience. I am not asking for heaven and earth. GT was the pinacle once. Is it really selfish or ungrateful to expect that again?

 

[TenEightyOne]

For all you that feel that Kaz is indispensable. I ask you this;

What do you think that Yamauchi-San still brings to the GT franchise as a whole that can't be replicated by other creators?

Well, first look at the input he's had in raising the core concept from nothing...

I don't know how much input he has.

D'oh.

...only features GT6 offers in it's current state is; star constellations and moon missions.

Are you really that stupid? That seems to me to be really really stupid thing to say. Really stupid. I raced for 5 hours the other day, online, no problems, fantastic no-assist racing.

Neither rover nor supernova anywhere to be seen.

...but it is shame to see the decline of a once magnificent creature. It feels like GT has been put out to graze pasture. I hope it can find it's strength and run again, but I fear for the future. I feel it is being left behind in the fields.

I heard "Ride of the Valkyries" as I read that, and then I was sick in my mouth.

You want it to cavort free, mane flaring wantonly in the breeze, probably backlit by sunrise, but you're going to shoot it in the head and convert it into a part-camel (so much more efficient) and saddle it with lots of squeaky Bright Young Things all pulling the reins in different directions.

I just don't think that you know what you're talking about.

 

[fatkid]

Well, first look at the input he's had in raising the core concept from nothing...

Please do not quote me out of context. If you would have read my post properly and in it's entirety, you would have seen that I typed, what Yamauchi-San, still brings to the franchise. As of now. As in GT6 and even GT5, that you feel he is indispensable.

Are you really that stupid? That seems to me to be really really stupid thing to say. Really stupid. I raced for 5 hours the other day, online, no problems, fantastic no-assist racing.

Neither rover nor supernova were to be seen.

Again. Out of context. Other racers offer a better online experience and physics. But like I said, I am not looking for heaven and earth. But the online features are bare bones compared it it's competitors. And other games in general. I was asking, what features in it's current state does GT6 offer that are comparable or superior to other racers. And please don't feel you have to insult me by calling me stupid, repeatedly.

You want it to caovrt free, mane flaring wantonly in the breeze, probably backlit by sunrise, but you're going to shoot it in the head and convert it into a part-camel (so much more efficient) and saddle it with lots of squeaky Bright Young Things all pulling the reins in different directions.

I just don't think that you know what you're talking about.

I have clear idea about what I am talking about. I am sure others do to by adding likes to my post. It seems to me that you don't know what you want. And are willing to accept whatever PD and Kaz offers up in whatever condition.

Sorry to burst your utopian bubble on planet gran turismo.

 

[Amac500]

Regardless of the late updates, if there is no Kaz there is no Gran Turismo. This is his child, it's his vision. I can't believe this is actually being proposed. I know the update is late and it is bad, people are getting way to bent over this with all the talk of protest and petitions and all that. Chill out people, your making everyone look bad.

And don't forget people, GT6 had to be rushed out because the PS4 was coming, so everybody just calm down.

 

[Tornado]

Are you really that stupid? That seems to me to be really really stupid thing to say. Really stupid. I raced for 5 hours the other day, online, no problems, fantastic no-assist racing.

Why, that's certainly a thing I could already do in several other games, including GT6's predecessor which offered considerably better stability as well as being more feature rich; and therefore not at all an attempt to answer his question.

I don't think the vision's changed, there seems to be a lot more to the situation surrounding GT6 in general; but all of those are to do with implementation of coding and GUI than to do with the concept of GT6 itself.

And the concept of GT6 is...? It's interesting that you defend Kaz's role in the series to the point of mocking when people point out that they don't know how much it is these days, but you base most of your argument on the same concept but reversed.

When I look at the game today I see lots of cars, lots of great tracks and I can easily (most of the time) find an assists-off no-handbags lobby and get some great racing in cars of all kinds

That's not a particularly notable trait in itself 15 years after the first game already did it (with several other games doing the same); and not at all an explanation of what this legendary "vision" entails. His unique vision certainly applied as the driving force in GT1/GT2, but now the GT formula has been fairly closely copied by quite a few series (of admittedly varying quality). Even Need for Speed threw their hat into the ring for one of that series' high points.

I see the kind of nerdy detail - the love of one single concept, the passion for one particular car, the idea of simulating the driving experience as closely as possible on a console, I feel my own slightly weird passion for motoring minutiae reflected in GT.

That's interesting since the attention to detail in the series has gotten worse and worse the farther away the series has gotten from the first game, despite a valiant effort made with GT2.

Removing Kaz means removing that as sure as removing Jobs from Apple or Gates from Microsoft removes that intangible force that makes it what it is. You can replace them with as much talent and knowledge as money can buy and still never get back to the actual vision.

And yet, despite both of those figures no longer being the driving force of those companies (the latter of which going on almost 15 years now), they seem to be doing alright, despite very real fears of Apple collapsing on itself with Jobs' death. To wit, Steve Jobs' "vision" and his willingness to self-destruct the entire company to achieve it is largely why he was ousted from Apple in the 1980s; only to be brought back 10 years later coinciding with when what he wanted to do could actually be done.

 

[Tenacious D]

For all you that feel that Kaz is indispensable. I ask you this;

What do you think that Yamauchi-San still brings to the GT franchise as a whole that can't be replicated by other creators?

There have been other games that have been at least on a similar level to GT, but they never achieved even a fraction of the success that GT did.

I think that suggests that there's more going on with GT's success than simply making a good game.

This is the thing. There is some kind of gestalt magic, some kind of ghost in the machine code, that turns gaming journalists like amar212 into devoted fans, not to mention countless devotees from all across the planet. That has casuals picking up a game with physics beyond Burnout and Mario Kart in the millions every release. A game without fun goodies like rockets and bananas, turbo boost and bullet time events. That has, dare I say it, a whole gob of subcompacts with less than 120hp. In a racing game!

I know the doom n gloom crowd are flummoxed by our addiction to the newest worst Gran Turismo in history, but it's because what GT offers just isn't there in other games. It sort of is in Forza, but it's a clone, and is a rather strongly different flavor, so the appeal is different, as is the level of it, clearly. We say this periodically and it still doesn't sink in, so I guess we'll keep revisiting this matter till the end of it all.

The Tenacious D post checklist is as alive as ever.

But then what would he do with this:

?

Well, let's see what all I've liked recently.

You're missing the forest for the trees. What you're witnessing is the evolution of the consumer/manufacturer relationship. The internet has allowed instant feedback on consumer satisfaction, and any company will ignore it at their own peril. Not all the feedback is good, but anyone wishing to continue to prosper in the future had best find a way to decipher all the noise to get to the music.

2 - I'm not going to lose my temper but we need an update or even some news! A car DLC as well, P1, LaFerrari, SLS Black... Lot of cars that haven't been included yet...

I understand and respect that some find online the main feature of the game and the only thing worth it, but for others like me it's just a complete waste of time. Spending half an hour searching for a decent room. Making one and waiting for another half an hour for people to start joining. In that hour I could make at least eight different races offline in different tracks and cars I want, and play my game under my own rules.

Unfortunately it's either deal with the frustrating, potty mouthed and sometimes snooty online community, or deal with the half baked Arcade mode, incomplete career mode and dead A.I.

I'm not done with the GT series and I don't think I'll ever will, so I choose to wait to see what happens in the future. For now I'll just give it a long break.

In fairness they did release Mario Andretti's Hudson in December as well. Which IMO is probably the best thing they've added to the game post launch.

I do love reading your posts though. Nice to see there's atleast one "industry insider" out there that understands the growing frustration of gamers with the way these companies are operating these days. 👍

To answer your question, this --> "With powered-up online competition, brand-new community functions". The same community functions that had a selection button on the disc version, but that were removed with 1.01 (assumably because they were unfinished).

Imagine you buy a car, you're told it has a leather interior. You get it home, put in the garage, and wake up in the morning and your interior is gone. You get a letter from your dealer saying that they have upgraded your car. You ask about your now missing interior...no answer.

Is it splitting hairs? Maybe, but there were community features in GT5 (and many other features that are missing). People are justifiably upset that useful, working, GT5 features didn't get carried over when the expectation was that they'd be expanded.

The only thing I'm actually upset about is that people are upset and not converting. Fewer people online means less variety for me. I'm looking forward to the community features (as they were described in presentations) and I hope it leads to more people converting over to GT6.

Maybe its a good idea to just read a bit of the history of GT... Or play GT1-5?
I get that some people are new to GT... but I don't get the stubborn attitude to us who say we got delivered an incomplete GT6.
You say you got what was promissed to you... Fair enough, enjoy!
But then why are 200+ dedicated fans here complaining it isn't what was promised to them...?
Please try to understand we have a point... And we are all anxiously waiting to get the GT6 we paid 80euros for.
We do believe PD will deliver... But we're still waiting after 12-6-13 to get GT6v2 ... And that's 🤬

Enjoy GT6 in your own way and enjoy GTPlanet!

(I'm trying to give you an idea of why people are upset... Not trying to upset you)

Don't get back in the box my friend.

I'm not as upset as many people are at this point. I'm still trying to keep positive about the game and future content. But I am one of those people that only bought the game because of advertised features. In fact, it was only a week before release when I read about car clubs and decided to go ahead and buy a PS3 and GT6. That was solely due to the idea of expanded "community" features and car clubs.

While I'm not ready to boycott and grab the pitchforks, I can totally understand why people are. They have every right to be. It's crazy in this world where contacting your customers/fans are just a few keystrokes away to delay features as long as they have with not a word. It's a reasonable criticism now, 3 months into release, to start questioning where and why are the advertised features not here. And if it ends up with them just abandoning all those features and moving on to GT7, as they have before, people have every right to be infuriated. To me, I'd put it right up there with when Greenbucks told the Forza community that "all the online features of FM2" would be in FM3 only to get the game and find out that most of the online features had in fact been gutted.🤬

Hopefully the OP is right and PD has some major thing up their sleeve....maybe all the "coming soon" features all in one big update. But, even if they are doing something like that, it's still their fault for the general state of mistrust that has been created. People have waited patiently at this point. Asking for patience time ended a few weeks ago when the promised big Feburuary update with the new track didn't show up without so much as a "sorry for the inconvienence".

Well, there are currently no community functions at all, so "brand new community functions" would indicate something more than nothing. Unless, what they meant to say was, "removed community functions that you had in GT5" because GT5 had some functions, albeit sparse.

Hmm... not all that much "GT6 is teh awesomest" in there...

Dude, you're becoming kind of a strange, stalky guy.

 

[Tornado]

Drawing attention to the increasingly known joke of people saying things and you pretending they are arguing the same as you does wonders when your last attempt to argue a point in this thread resulted in this:

Sure, boss, but instead, I think I'll go to bed, and you can grump at people here and further the joy of Gran Turismo.

By the way, you're up now, and that exact debate is still going. Any actual insight in it?

 

[cassiusclay99]

Well... 350 posts and noone could answer this very legit question: what is kaz's vision for GT ?

Except the number of cars and tracks (both VERY inconsistant mind you), everything GT does is done in other games, very often way better than GT.

People who keep saying Kaz is the only person able to produce that kind of game, or that he has a vision should:

1- play other games... like Forza, Assetto Corsa, Need for speed (Autolog, open world, leaderboards everywhere...), TOCA (IA anyone?), etc... There are MANY games that compete with GT now guys. Just like Kaz, you need to wake up. (don't do like Kaz who admitted he does not even play competitors' games... which, to me, is absolutely ridiculous and arrogant)

2- explain what this vision is and what is so creative that noone else could do it. Technical achievements aside (night, weather, physics,etc...), what does GT do that others don't ? in tems of creativity, ideas, originality,fun...

3- tell me how they can excuse such a messy o,line mode after 10 years working on it? Why is it still unfinished and unthought?

4 - realise that Kaz already failed twice producing these games correctly (for 10 years...without counting GT4 online mode that was cancelled) )... which is 2 times more than many other devs who'd love to get their chance to renew the franchise.


Can anyone answer these please?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Hmm... not all that much "GT6 is teh awesomest" in there...

Dude, you're becoming kind of a strange, stalky guy.

I can best answer this by quoting myself..self serving I know but it works.

You're missing the forest for the trees.....Not all the feedback is good, but anyone wishing to continue to prosper in the future had best find a way to decipher all the noise to get to the music.

There is a wealth of information contained in all the quotes you used, but all you can see is the negative side of it and can't see through to the real honest feedback contained in each of them. There is a wealth of valuable feedback there, you are just not capable of seeing it because you have blinders on.

To be honest, I'm not real keen on the "stalky guy" remark. Sounds like just another way of demonizing or stigmatize someone who has the audacity to challenge your statements in the discussion forum.

 

[Tenacious D]

By the way, you're up now, and that exact debate is still going. Any actual insight in it?

I see no point to your post, as I sincerely doubt you want to further any sort of discussion, but I'm assuming you're referring to why Kaz should stay as head of Polyphony Digital. Besides the fact that the man understands cars like very few people, has a relationship with the automotive and racing world that few have, and is also an extremely accomplished racer in his own right, I refer my friend to remarks I made a moment ago.

This is the thing. There is some kind of gestalt magic, some kind of ghost in the machine code, that turns gaming journalists like amar212 into devoted fans, not to mention countless devotees from all across the planet. That has casuals picking up a game with physics beyond Burnout and Mario Kart in the millions every release. A game without fun goodies like rockets and bananas, turbo boost and bullet time events. That has, dare I say it, a whole gob of subcompacts with less than 120hp. In a racing game!

I know the doom n gloom crowd are flummoxed by our addiction to the newest worst Gran Turismo in history, but it's because what GT offers just isn't there in other games. It sort of is in Forza, but it's a clone, and is a rather strongly different flavor, so the appeal is different, as is the level of it, clearly. We say this periodically and it still doesn't sink in, so I guess we'll keep revisiting this matter till the end of it all.

There is a wealth of information contained in all the quotes you used, but all you can see is the negative side of it and can't see through to the real honest feedback contained in each of them. There is a wealth of valuable feedback there, you are just not capable of seeing it because you have blinders on.

If I was nothing but a GT is paaarfect and nuuuuthing is wrong with it fanboy, you'd have a point. So here's a huge clue for you: you don't.

Well, one more thing, since you clearly skim my posts. Saying that I can have fun racing against the bots, for example, DOES NOT MEAN that I find the bot behavior to be paaaarfect. And I have mentioned here and there that I want the bots to be improved in GT7, and a damage build, and a whole slew of racing sim elements, and a Forza-like Livery Editor...

So quit acting like a fan of the game who DARES to like the game can't see what's in front of him. Criminey, some humans...

 

[lTwiSparkle]

Wow, at this rate I think something needs to change at PD, if GTPlanet's community is at each other's throats :s

Whether or not Kaz, specifically, needs to go is another story. At this point I don't think it's so much "his vision" as much as it is the whole team at PD's vision. Indeed, I've realised the constant use of " Kaz's vision" in advertising is making it just that... an advertising scheme. Something to bring up nostalgia in long-time GT'ers and provoke interest in new racing-game-fans.

It's admittedly a good tactic

I'm going to go with the idea that Polyphony Digital needs better organisation, better PR (any PR is better than the practically non existent PR right now) and, if recent news is anything to go by, halting development of GT7 completely to please everyone who purchased GT6.

Like other's have said, there's plenty to love and plenty to hate. So let's work on enjoying what we can and - somehow, someway - getting PD to spill the proverbial beans about upcoming features intended for GT6.

 

[cassiusclay99]

@Tenacious D
Stop using hyperbole: noone said you said GT is perfect in any way. Stop pretending things noone says just to have a point.

I suggest you talk about what people say and their REAL complaints about the game instead of talking of the way they express it (and in this case:the way they did NOT say it)

We had a lot of very concrete and specific complaints. If you are really interested in this thread, why not answer those?

 

[Tornado]

I see no point to your post, as I sincerely doubt you want to further any sort of discussion, but I'm assuming you're referring to why Kaz should stay as head of Polyphony Digital.

No. I'm referring to the discussion you started here that you bailed out of, and which your recent post isn't related to:

I'll bite. Tell me another racing game developer who's games have routinely broken the 10 million sales mark.

So what does Kaz's position specifically have to do with that? We've been trying to discuss what effect Kaz's "vision" has on the series in the here and now. That's quite a different thing from attributing his position as the reason for the sales success.

Dude, you're sad. If I was nothing but a GT is paaarfect and nuuuuthing is wrong with it fanboy, you'd have a point.

Paying lip service to negative traits, to the extent of fabricating your posting history to imply that you've come to accept common issues others have that you never had a problem with, does not an objective viewpoint make.

 

[Tenacious D]

We had a lot of very concrete and specific complaints. If you are really interested in this thread, why not answer those?

Dude, seriously, just how the heck am I supposed to answer for PD why things like the online features aren't out yet, except to say with utter common sense that it makes MORE sense to think those features aren't ready than to gripe that PD are lazy or are sitting on them? Does that make ANY sense to you?

I recall that you hate the sounds. Does that mean that anyone who says they don't mind the sounds, or kind of like the sounds, have them up in replays is lying? That if the sounds are bad that the game is bad and everyone has to agree with you?

Do you really want to have a discussion? Let's just start with that.

So what does Kaz's position specifically have to do with that? We've been trying to discuss what effect Kaz's "vision" has on the series in the here and now. That's quite a different thing from attributing his position as the reason for the sales success.

Dude, look, you pick out a post to mock, and then say, "Hey, join this discussion." Where you say things like the game has done almost nothing but go downhill since GT1. I would say that's a VERY personal opinion because I doubt hardly anyone agrees with you. So what am I supposed to do with that?

Now if you really want a discussion, maybe I can dig up some of my older posts you've ignored later on, but in case you haven't noticed, not everyone lives to crawl on boards all day like you do. I want to eat some yummies and actually enjoy my day, and thumbwrestling with you guys wears pretty quick. So... later to both of you.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Wait... so if you buy GT6 second hand, you can't really blame PD. The original buyer could, but not the next buyer.
So he/she should blame the original buyer?

Did you stop and actually think about what you just posted? I mean why would you blame the original buyer, I mean was there a scratch on the disc or corrupted data (there wouldn't be) or something that they can be faulted for?

In reality second hand, third hand purchase, trade it doesn't matter. Each user has a right to make a critique even if they didn't buy the game at full price like you, I don't know where some of you guys come up with these arbitrary rules of how things should work...rather wish the world worked.

 

[Griffith500]

Did you stop and actually think about what you just posted? I mean why would you blame the original buyer, I mean was there a scratch on the disc or corrupted data (there wouldn't be) or something that they can be faulted for?

In reality second hand, third hand purchase, trade it doesn't matter. Each user has a right to make a critique even if they didn't buy the game at full price like you, I don't know where some of you guys come up with these arbitrary rules of how things should work...rather wish the world worked.

Did you? You're both of the same opinion on this matter. Blaming someone who bought the game for the "quality" of the game is fallacious. That was misunderstood from the economically motivated point being made (trading in the game makes the mistake of buying it less expensive).

Although, there are the beginnings of some truths in that misunderstanding: "quality" is subjective, so their own opinion of the game is technically their own "fault" (neither right nor wrong)). Also, for "crowd sourcing", the apparent holy grail of game development, the final "quality" totally is the fault of "patrons".

Again, none of this is actually being argued, though. I don't know where you come up with these arbitrary crusades you wish you could be fighting.

 

[Vagabond]

I don't know where you come up with these arbitrary crusades you wish you could be fighting.

Burn the Heretic. Kill the Mutant. Purge the Unclean.

Who were they again...?