Why Kaz needs to go...

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by cassiusclay99, Feb 27, 2014.

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Do you think Kaz should retire from GT?

  1. Yes.

    33.5%
  2. No.

    66.5%
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  1. ANFD

    ANFD

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    I disagree with those who think Kaz has no vision. He has a distinct vision and that's part of the problem. He has stated from the very start that Gran Turismo is something that he has always wanted to do .... for himself. He has said that repeatedly, that he has had the idea to do this and that since it was HIS passion. His passion for photography drives Photomode, HIS passion for collecting cars drives the car selection .... it's always been about what Kaz wanted and he makes no bones about it. It's never been about what the fans wanted .... where on earth did you ever get that idea ? By definition as "The Real Driving Simulator", it's admitting that it was never intended to be an actual "racing game". If someone could convince Kaz to share his love of Endurance racing and make a real Endurance Racing game with the feel of real racing with real car counts and race-craft, we'd all be glad he was still around.
     
  2. greg666

    greg666

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    Kaz's dream from the beginning is to achieve virtual to reality racing game, and he has accomplished this with GT academy. His focus and approach is entirely different than Forza franchise.
     
  3. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D Premium

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    Gee, maybe because when we caterwauled about wanting damage, the team tried to make something work. When the fans cringed at the result, they mostly scrapped it. But they gave it a shot.

    When the fans howled that the car sounds weren't good at all, the sound team updated the sounds, sometimes amazingly.

    When the fans griped about the lackluster bot A.I., suddenly the bots got smarter.

    When the fans lamented a much loved Race Mod system, the team cobbled something up. It was pretty meager, just a few cars, with pretty sad livery templates, but it was there.

    When the fans insisted on time of day transitions and weather...

    Seriously, what game are you playing? Or maybe I should ask, how long have you been playing Gran Turismo?

    Kaz really is one of the best things to happen to racing games. I will admit that his experiment with GT5 was a mixed bag, and several things irked us. But at the same time, this game, which some critics here said was the worst racing game ever, sold more than 10 million copies. And it continues to sell because there is no other game like Gran Turismo, and because there is no developer like Kaz and his team.

    GT6 was rushed out the door to capitalize on the PS3 install base, Christmas sales, and the 15th Anniversary (plus) of the Gran Turismo franchise. From description of intended updates, it seems almost like half the game has yet to be built. And now, with indications that GT7/Prologue may be in the works, much of it might not be. Instead, the team might be focusing on that next gen experience. I won't cry about it. Like Earth, I wanted GT6 to be made for the PS4 to start with, so I'm happy whatever we get. If GT6 gets its updates, awesome. If GT7 Prologue gets made, or GT7 itself, fantastic.

    When the full blown GT7 finally gets made, it's going to be a good racer because Kaz will be at the helm of a very talented team.

    By the way, endurance racing isn't everyone's cup of tea. Some of us haven't touched them because we don't have the time or patience to sit down for two and a half hours to race even GT2's enduros, never mind 24 real hours.
     
    occasionalracer, MaDHaX, hol and 5 others like this.
  4. Gran_Turismo

    Gran_Turismo

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    A few months ago I made a thread giving my opinions, ideas, and asking others about PD getting some help from others developers, to pick up slack. More people thought PD was doing just fine on their own without outside help.

    It's funny how people are complaining, NOW.

    Before the game released, I stated that this would be the first GT game that I would not be getting and after reading all of this since release, I seem to have made the correct decision.

    I'll say it again. They needs help. PDs feet aren't fitting GTs shoes anymore.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  5. disinfected

    disinfected Premium

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    This complaining truly gets more and more repetitive and annoying with each passing day.
     
  6. Ghoa$t

    Ghoa$t

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    Was
     
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  7. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D Premium

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    Says you.

    Tomorrow, I'm likely to get back into racing my i-A series, and taking some car around the Nordshleife at sunset, and this place will be about as relevant as bellybutton lint. Anyhow, this petulant child really needs to crash.
     
    GregOr1971 likes this.
  8. DingoDile

    DingoDile

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    I dont know about Kaz, but I think GT needs a reboot. I know reboot isnt a correct word for a racing game, but it needs a new soul IMO.
     
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  9. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Staff Emeritus

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    This is the succinct summation of why GT continues to sell well (or rather, used to).

    ...mostly because this sort of thinking. GT6 is missing a whole bunch of promised features (with absolutely no timeline of when they'll be included), yet some diehards are willing to stick their heads in the sand about it if there's rumour of a new game. How quick would this sort of incomplete approach be accepted if it were any other game?*

    Prior to GT5's release, people had grand ideas of what it would provide us. When the actual product turned out to be a mixed bag, the tune quickly became "it's their first game on the PS3, it's building a foundation". When GT6 was announced, the idea was that foundation would provide the "GT5 we always wanted". Now that it's out, and still incomplete three months later, there's some other reason given. Some folks hold out hope that GT7 will be "the GT we've been waiting for" or something along those lines, despite an increasingly frequent history of PD under-delivering. And yet, even if GT7 on PS4 isn't good, we'll be in the GT5 situation all over again; "it's their first game on a new system". How many titles will the series sell on the premise that the next game will be great? More power to you if that works for you, but personally, I'd rather buy a title because of what it actually does, not on the hypotheticals of what the next one will.

    * - Obviously, with no actual confirmation of any GT7(P) on PS4 development in any serious capacity, only brief mentions, this is relying on a lot of what-if's. The idea that it's okay for PD to abandon a game and the numerous promises they made for it so long as they work on another one is the issue I'm getting at.

    (EDIT) Derp, probably should at least address the topic at hand - even if it's been done before. I'm on the fence about whether Kaz should stay in his current place at PD or not. On one hand, the series is increasingly lagging behind competitors in some key areas, and Kaz seems to be more and more interested in his real life racing exploits. That said, after meeting the man himself, there is certainly a level of passion there that needs to be seen to be believed. Whether he should take on a more advisory role while someone more willing to crack the whip takes his current seat is probably the question I'd be more interested in.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
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  10. PletdeKoe

    PletdeKoe

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    Different day, same arguments.....
     
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  11. gambleboyen

    gambleboyen

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    If PD makes money, he'll stay.

    They are business people in the end.
     
    GregOr1971 likes this.
  12. synon

    synon

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    People wouldn't really be fans of GT unless they shared at least partly some of Kaz's vision, so I disagree that it has never been about what the fans have wanted.
     
    JAHHAJ, Tenacious D and GregOr1971 like this.
  13. andryush

    andryush

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    Well said!

    Some fanboys here praise GT without seeing its flaws. This leads to degradation of series, as we see on GT6 example. You pointed out very well, what were our expectations for GT6 when GT5 came out. Now we have GT6 in even worse shape than GT5, and some people here say - oh, but GT6 is test ground for GT7 on PS4, it will be better. Wtf, seriosuly?!

    So, i wanted to say, death to all stupid and blind fanboys! You’re destroying our beloved racing game!! Shame on you! :censored::censored::censored:

    Kaz needs to fix GT6, or he will loose part of his loyal fanbase. The stupid ones will still be playing and praising flawed GT games, though. :banghead:
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  14. ULTRAVIOLENZZ

    ULTRAVIOLENZZ

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    Only lung cancer can make Kaz quit...smoking that is.
     
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  15. GTP Red Pill

    GTP Red Pill Premium

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    @cassiusclay99 - I'm with you 100% on everything you said. I think Kaz is losing the plot, which is evident in the game & it's sales figures. Roll on Project Cars! :D
     
    SillyBillyP likes this.
  16. Cosbuster

    Cosbuster

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    Retiring altogether? No, but stepping down to an advisory position while someone else makes the crucial decisions? Absolutely. Being a dreamer is nice and all, but not when you lead a big team of people that need precise direction. The more complex the work that needs to be done, the worse it shows.

    At this rate, the next GT on the PS4 will either take a decade to fully complete or the product we get will resemble a prologue without being intended as one. Instead of improving as the years pass, they just fall behind even more. Some change is definitely needed and Kaz might be too busy dreaming to realize it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
    research likes this.
  17. cassiusclay99

    cassiusclay99

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    Kaz's praising in his forum is ridiculous. of course the man deserves all the success he got: GT1 to GT3 were absolute matserpiece... GT4 started to show some unfinished and untested game mechanics but was still far above the others racing games.

    Then GT5 came and it was, as a game experience, a total wreck. I realize many people enjoyed driving for hundreds of hours, but the game design -especially online- was a total mess. And technically speaking he game was, for the first time, inconsistent in so many ways. To me, and many others- GT5 is a disaster.

    GT6 is way better but PD was supposed to correct everything that did not work in GT5: that's what you expect from a sequel. fix what did not work, and push it a bit further. this did not happen.
    Or are you telling me bad framerate, bad sounds, bad online, missing key features, miscommunication, inconsistency...are part of Kaz so-called "vision"?
    You might approve the man's "philosophy" (I fail to see one but hey... everyone has an opinion) but these are objective problems...

    When i read here that they fixed the sounds in GT6... i mean: if you really think the sounds are fixed in GT6, then I don't want to talk with you. At best, some (not a lot) cars sound better than others... At best, it's just another inconsistency. But fixed the sounds? Give me a break. th sounds are laughable. REALLY LAUGHABLE. Anyone who got in a powerful car knows that the most impressive thing, the most shivering thing is the SOUND! I was lucky enough to drive a Ferrari and to see many Lambos, porsches, Maserati, Audi R8,... the engine sounds are terrifying. Those who think NFS sounds are exagerated don't know what they are talking about.

    Talk about the online mode? GT5 was a total mess in that regard.... and he we are again, 3 years later with the same uninspired, boring prehistoric online mode (with key features nowhere to be found..patch "some day")...

    The lack of leaderboards was shocking in GT5... are there leaderboards in GT6? Well. No. kaz vision has no room for them I guess.

    Patches? GT is the only game where the official patch description (forgot the english word) is incomplete... You need to come here and read other players to learn that PD tuned the physics, changed this or that... how is that?

    During the years it took to make GT5 and 6, Criterion pushed the Burnout and then NFS series to new heights. They buit autolog wich not only allows players to play in the same open world, but also has leaderboards for almost everything you can do in the game. Updates every friend times and challenges, allows you to invite anyone just typing ONE button!... smooth. Fluid. Perfect.
    Compared to GT online mode (which they are working on since GT4!!! mind you), this is lightyears ahead! You cant' even invite a friend in GT6!!! How sick is this? Kaz vision again?


    What more do you need to see when new blood is needed?

    Kaz used to be a great producer....and might even become one again in the future...but on GT: the man has no idea left. He's done.
     
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  18. BWX

    BWX

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    Hell yes he needs to go! He completely is wrecking GT.
     
  19. MrUnknown

    MrUnknown (Banned)

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    I belive that Kaz is watching this thread and be like...

     
  20. TokoTurismo

    TokoTurismo

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    Man the butthurt is getting stronger everyday, is it not? @Jordan must feel REALLY disappointed in this community.
     
  21. MrUnknown

    MrUnknown (Banned)

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    I know, right?

    It's like butthurting about the PS4, after buying it... :banghead:
     
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  22. MasterDriver

    MasterDriver

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    I voted NO because KAZ is a visionary. he is the sole reason we get GranTurismo. Compare the quality produced in that produce with every other product in its genre. Don't kid yourself.

    I will say that some of the things done, such as the Moon Rover missions and more so the Star simulation could be considered a waste of resources, but for those little tit for tats there is no way I'd say get rid of him.

    Do they need a community manager? yes!
    Do they need to focus on the core elements of a driving simulation? yes!
    Do they need to listen to a 15yr old on GTplanet bicker and whine, because a track was not released yet? HELL NO.
    Do they need to quit false advertising? YES
    Do they need to UNDERPROMISE and OVERDELIVER? YES

    These are grown men who operate a business, have families, a surreal amount of passion for their product and are leading the world in their current field.

    Show some respect. geez.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
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  23. TokoTurismo

    TokoTurismo

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    Oh yeah, it's definitely up there with the PS4.
     
  24. AudiMan2011

    AudiMan2011 Contributing Writer

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    I personally think that Kaz shouldn't quit GT altogether but he should rather step back and look to giving himself a reality check. I think that it's the majority of the dev team that needs to go rather than pinning the blame just on Kaz himself.

    Bring in some fresh blood to the development team, ditch the stupid "shokunin" concept of working and maybe PD can make a good proper game again.
     
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  25. cassiusclay99

    cassiusclay99

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    Well... I think Jordan would rather have a vocal community that can express its critics in a logical and reasonable way, than having blind supporters, who only have irony to oppose to our points.
    I think Jordan might even share some of ours concerns... but can't say it without damaging his relationship with PD.

    You love GT6? You love kaz? good for you. Still, does it mean our concerns don't exist? Are the problems I -with many many others- raised out of our imagination?

    The serie gets lower and lower sales and lower and lower scores,(GT3 got 95 in metacritics, GT4 got 89, GT5 got 85 and now GT6 got 81) Don't you see a pattern here? Doesn't it remind you of winning Eleven/FIFA? japanese producer who can't renew...and gets overtaken by western dev? Don't you see the creative crisis that hits japanese videogame industry lately? Because Kaz is a part of it.

    This is Sony's flagship we are talking about. Any CEO who sees one of his division getting less and less appreciated, getting caught up by competitors and making less and less sales would HAVE to react.
     
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  26. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Wow, you really can justify anything can't you?:lol: You're ok with them abandoning a game which you are basically characterizing as a "cash grab" in favour of developing the next version of the game for the next gen console, simply because that's what you wanted. If that is true, and I'm not willing to accept that it is quite yet, it's too early to tell, where did the great Japanese honour and integrity go? What does that say about Kaz and his team that they would unload a half finished cash grab on people, not finish it, then try to sell us a new game born from the ashes of our incomplete GT6 money?

    IMO the franchise needs some help and it's lost it's way. I don't think that means getting rid of Kaz quite yet, but it's obviously lost direction and purpose and become just a sad mishmash of cars and tracks with no real purpose or direction. It's become much like a giant billboard for GTAcademy and Vision GT and they can't even deliver on that it seems.
     
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  27. Foxiol

    Foxiol

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    I´ll make a proper judgement after GT7 releases.

    But still I think the creator of the game, the father of the creature should always stay in it.

    The only thing PD needs to do as a whole is focusing the development and ideas with the community without loosing what made the series its own thing.
    More sharing and less "secretism", just tell us how the new game will be and let us decide if we want that or not because at the end of the day WE are the ones who are going to buy the final product.

    This is the problem with GT5 and 6...they want to put so much stuff in the game and half of it is useless to some of us. Then you have some improvements here and there but main problems from previous iterations are still there.

    One major problem with the series at this point is that they are trying to make a game using the very same formula on and on, and it is not working as they expected. To me playing a Gran Turismo now feels like playing a Fifa/PES game, some improvements but basically the very same thing and not very well executed or structured.

    They need to re-think and re-define the basics of Gran Turismo by not ditching the "soul" of the game (cars and tracks...lots of them).
    See what it is wrong and make that good...you name it: realistic engine sounds, an actual progressive career mode, visual customization including paint/decal editor, actual real race rules/regulations, standing grids for the love of racing with a good AI for once is not so much to ask, dedicated servers to not have so much lag problems in races, and more than 16 cars in a race...etc...
    If I won´t see that in GT7...they can put the most realistic visuals ever in a game...but without the BASICS of a racing/driving game which is the part that makes you play it even more...I won´t be even paying attention to it.

    Kaz should not leave or step aside...He should think what they actually can do in the PS4 (because PS3 is a lost cause at this point from a hardware perspective) knowing the limitations, but not with crazy ideas or repetitive ones from the past.
    Also no more assets recycling...
     
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  28. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D Premium

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    GT5 was a mixed bag in large part because Kaz and the team had some utterly strange, typically Japanese ideas that no other racing developer would employ, other than Turn 10's experience point system. The whole XP leveling, Pokemon collecting thing put many of us off. Heck, the Museum Cards even became a problem because it began clogging the hard drive with no way to cull the thing down. And how many of us really got into having all the car horns? ;) In some ways, GT5 was just strange.

    But it was also awesome sauce for many of us. I know that others were put off by the Standard cars and the car sounds, like always, even when they were made better. The rest of us didn't care. Everyone agreed that if Standard cars and engine sounds could be made better, do it. But in polls here, the "No Standard" crowd always lost, and this is where the most hard nosed fanbase congregate. So it's pretty clear that the "GT isn't quite good enough" sentiment just isn't that wide spread.

    And blaming us GT lovers for Gran Turismo just not being good enough is misplaced. If nothing was ever improved or advanced in the series, you guys would have a point. But in the face of obvious improvements in the series, your guy's arguments really aren't that sound. There is some clear picking and choosing of factors to address in a game so large, but many of you won't give credit where credit is due. Standards were improved. Sounds were improved. Bot A.I. was improved. But according to many of you, nothing ever changed.

    With GT6, it's true that we didn't know exactly what we were getting. We didn't even know if used cars would be in the game until it hit the shelves. But we did get indications that some things just wouldn't be there at launch, some very crucial things like most of the online goodies like the club and league builder tools, Course Maker II, B-Spec... it's hard to remember all the stuff we're anticipating.

    The reason I'm excited rather than bummed out is that the limits of PS3 are still glaring, like the night lighting which is pretty bad with only two cars casting headlights, and other things I'm a bit too out of it to recall right now. There are a LOT of things that will be possible on PS4, not the least of which are more cars on track making multiclass racing possible, and true night lighting. Better weather effects. Living worlds with things like more dynamic crowds. Much better particle effects, and AA who insist on that kind of thing.

    As I said in another thread, I don't think GT6 is going to be abandoned. It's on the market now, and supporting it with more goodies is going to give it longer legs. But like Earth, I wanted GT6 to be on PS4 to start with, and I'm not alone, so I'm the wrong guy to be hammered on this point.

    Basically this.
     
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  29. TokoTurismo

    TokoTurismo

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    Slip, you know this is offensive to all those who love the franchise, correct? Especially coming from a mod like yourself. Just because others loves GT, doesn't mean their the problem of why GT is what it is today, and why it sells well. The same thing can be said to any franchise. ANY.
     
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  30. MoLiEG

    MoLiEG

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    I don't think we need to fire Kaz, what he needs is simply open his ears and listen ot us!
     
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