Why Kaz needs to go...
- Thread starter cassiusclay99
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- HamiltonMP427
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Thank you for answering my question... but i would not call this a "vision" (like some kind of creative way of conceiving a game). This is more a description of what a driving simulator is...just with many cars/tracks.
Nothing creative or original don't you think?
The term "vision" implies some kind of creative promiss, an inspiration that goes through the whole game, and that the creator wants to share if you prefer...
The photo mode, even though I am not really into it, was a great invention...10 years ago.
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
I think the vision is for car manufacturer involvement, to an extent not seen before in computer games. VGT marks the beginning of this.
Another part, involves the upcoming course creator with GPS. Being able to create our own real world tracks.
If PD pull both of these things off, it will change the face of driving games.
- 286
VGT is not that much of a be deal imo: 30 cars that we still don't know anything about? Even if they were fantastic drives, I will always wonder if they would really be that good IRL. It's pure PR for brands. Nothing more.
I will always prefer to have the very best cars in the world: Leffari, P1, Koenigsegg, 918 Spyder, ... than prototypes that are just disguised PR.
The GPS is still not released... and we still have no real idea what we'll really be able to do with it.
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
VGT gets a lot of manufacturers involved in GT, more involvement than they have had in the past, and more than any other game. It's mutually beneficial for the manufacturers, PD/Sony, and fans of driving/racing.
I can see no negative aspect to VGT.
- 10,915
- Sweden
- eran0004
If you're interested in car design then concept cars is where the frontline is. Is it PR? Of course it is, anything they put their brand on is PR. The car you drive to work every day is PR. Formula 1, DTM, BTCC and Nascar is PR. That doesn't mean that there's nothing more to it than PR though.
- 286
I did not say it was negative. I said it's no big deal TO ME.
And I don't think the car manufacturers really put much efforts into this. They probably jut use prototypes they did not intend to use in the first place. Just my guess though...
@eran0004
No my car is not PR. It's a car. REAL cars are not PR: they exist in the real world, be it races or everyday life. Prototypes are.
But I have nothing against Prototypes in GT. Again: I just think it's not such a big deal.
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- 10,915
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- eran0004
The everyday car you're driving around in is a mobile ad for the brand. It does a lot more than that, but so does concept cars too, they're essentially where new ideas are being born and tested, new form languages are being researched and where the car as an idea is constantly revalued and renewed.
It's not just PR.
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- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
The negative implications are easy to see. Resources are finite. Each VGT car created means one less real car created, given the same number of people working on modelling. I daresay many people would take a handful of really good real cars over 27 VGT's any day.
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
Except there are no VGT cars to model. They don't exist in the real world. They are data supplied by manufacturers.
A VGT car in GT does not mean one less real car is modeled. Unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise?
- 6,789
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Vision GT cars are great use of brand power. Anyone can model cars but to get so many well known brands designing cars for the game is an amazing feat by Kaz and his team. Grateful to Kaz for what he has achieved, building for the future and high efficiency levels than being wasteful of resources. Short term pain for long term gain. The GT future looks very bright to me thanks to Kaz.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Unless they model themselves using fairy dust and a magic spell, it takes resources to make it happen. People, time, hardware, money. Unless PD is hiring people specifically to do this, then it takes resources away from modeling real cars. I have no evidence they did not hire people to do this of course, but I'd say the number of DLC cars we've received so far would be a good indication of how much modelling resources are being taken up the the VGT cars.
- 286
@eran0004
I had edited my post because that epression was a bit condescending. Unfortunatly, you saw it before.
PR is what you do to make people buy your cars. Your cars are not PR. They are the product where you get your income from.
I see where you are going: like "nothing is done for free and everything is a kind a communication". BUT i think you go a little too far:cars are not PR.
Anyway... really not that important is it?
@jimipitbull
Come on man. Of course PD has to model the VGT cars. How do you think they end up in the game? Wether it's based on data or driving test (btw, do you think PD tried and test drived every car in the game?) doesn't change much... there are still people who need to change those data into a virtual car.
Wish they did it with Laferrari and the Mac Laren P1 instead... but this is probably just me being petty.
I had edited my post because that epression was a bit condescending. Unfortunatly, you saw it before.
PR is what you do to make people buy your cars. Your cars are not PR. They are the product where you get your income from.
I see where you are going: like "nothing is done for free and everything is a kind a communication". BUT i think you go a little too far:cars are not PR.
Anyway... really not that important is it?
@jimipitbull
Come on man. Of course PD has to model the VGT cars. How do you think they end up in the game? Wether it's based on data or driving test (btw, do you think PD tried and test drived every car in the game?) doesn't change much... there are still people who need to change those data into a virtual car.
Wish they did it with Laferrari and the Mac Laren P1 instead... but this is probably just me being petty.
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- 10,915
- Sweden
- eran0004
They are the consumer products and they are PR. Just like your shoes or your cell phone or your Coca-Cola bottle.
Racing is definitely PR, Audi wouldn't have a motorsport team if they couldn't use it to brag about their cars. Every time an Audi is successful on the racetrack, it's good PR for the brand. If all of their cars were to break down in Le Mans it would be bad PR.
- 15,313
- TRAPPIST-1g
- ProjectWHaT
GT5 was a good game, do we all agree? GT6 was a bit worse than GT5, right? Before we start throwing out Kaz, lets give him one last chance with GT7, before start signing a petition to throw him off the throne. 
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
Modeling a real car, that involves measurements, taking pictures, converting that into whatever data format used in game. PD do not need to take measurements or pictures for VGT, that is supplied to them. What format it is supplied in, we don't know. For all we know the data could be supplied to PD in the correct format, or it could be a simple conversion.
To say a VGT car means 1 less real car modeled is purely speculation. It's not fact, as stated by certain members. VGT could potentially lead to more real cars being modeled, by way of manufacturers supplying PD with the required data for new cars. So the modeling process could be effectively shortened.
- 6,425
- KCCO
- 1,708
- GTPlanet
- Cosbuster
I'd go with it being a decent game and that took like one and a half year of updates. GT5 launch was pretty horrible.
- 10,915
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- eran0004
That's not what I'm saying.
- 13,737
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Not a chance.
http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gt6/cars/
Basically, it still takes just as long to create the model even if they're given full CAD data, which is what manufacturers and designers work with.
VGTs are presumably only CAD data, because there's no real car available. PD then have to change that into whatever the game uses, and if they're talking about it taking six months I'd hazard a guess that it's not trivially simple.
It's likely not 1 VGT = 1 real car, but it's probably not far from it. If we're talking new cars that they'd get CAD data for and work from that anyway, then yeah, they're probably pretty comparable. If we're talking old cars where they have to work from photos/measurements, then it's less clear.
It's magic how modeling a VGT by a 3rd party is now so easy, while for years it wasn't possible to outsource car modeling according to the fanboys because quality would suffer.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Good grief... three more pages of this stuff since noonish yesterday? I'll skim this stuff later. So anyhow, about Kaz's Vision Thing.
From everything he's said, he wants to encompass the world of cars and motorsports in Gran Turismo, making it ultimately kind of like an autopedia. I find this a laudable goal and I'd stick to it, personally. No, you can't do everything you want in a single game, but with something as powerful as PS3, you can do an awful lot, and look out for what's possible on PS4. I agree, he needs more of a solid racer focus, but I'll get to that.
So why was GT5 so weird, and GT6 so skimpy? It may be that he was discouraged about how little his home country appreciated Gran Turismo versus the west, especially Europe. I think it's more likely that SONY "encouraged" Kaz to experiment like they encouraged him to add 3D to GT5, and produce GT PSP before GT5, when he said a few times that GT5 was his baby and the PSP game would come afterward. And as some of us have posted a number of times, the Japanese are very, very different people, with a culture where Pokemon collecting and dating games flourish.
With GT6, I think it's obvious that he was pushed to get GT6 out ASAP, because PS4's release meant the decline of PS3 and everyone knows that, so it was a move to capitalize on a soon to dwindle market, plus there was that "15th Anniversary" thing. It seems like "half finished game" fits GT6 well, as a lot of features are going to have to be bolted on. As I mentioned before, I embargoed myself for the most part from the nets a few months before December, so I could experience GT6 with as fresh a mindset as possible, thus I didn't know that there were no used cars until I went to the dealerships in the game. Just about everything was a surprise for me.
For others obviously, it was a completely different story, as they now resent a game which they see as half baked, missing a lot of goodies they were counting on, rather naively, to be there in a few months, when Kaz said that they would be expanding on GT6 through 2014, and perhaps beyond. At the very least, major additions through May. I had no idea if this was doable on a regular schedule since this is all software, but I had a feeling that a track a month was a little ambitious unless they dumped all their GT7 work into GT6, which I never thought would happen. Other stuff, I give them the benefit of the doubt.
Well, except now there is this cloud known as GT7 hanging over us. It seems to me that SONY got spooked at non-explosive GT6 sales, along with Drive Club and P CARS release dates slipping to their vexation, and told Kaz he really should have made that GT7 after all, so go ahead. This isn't unlikely, considering the mindset of SONY the megacorp. And with the work necessary to produce a flagship racer with the scope of Gran Turismo, it's not hard to see that PD turning their attention to GT7 is going to sap development of GT6.
So what should Kaz do, if this isn't the case? Have PD produce those goodies he said they would. If it is the case? He has to do what he's told, but he can try within certain constraints to deliver the features on GT6 he said he would. And it makes business sense, because GT6 is on the market and support will mean lasting appeal and happier fans, and SONY can me persuaded in favor of this, depending on how much their collective hearts are set on getting GT7 made. SONY CE may care to an extent about their fans, but SONY the megacorp just cares about numbers.
And so what if GT7 is being incubated, which is almost guaranteed regardless, what should it be? Clearly, more racing focused. For me, since Kaz wants to make an autopedia, it needs more racing sim features. Not to the exclusion of the traditional GT game everyone has come to expect, so I'd push that off in its own GT Pro mode, and make it like a PC sim. Doing that, they need to focus on everything involved in a racing sim. So that means with WRC, come up with a bunch of tracks suitable to point to point races, and I'd allow some circuits and rallycross like Dirt features. For Super GT, have enough cars and tracks available to flesh out some version of a racing season along with a championship. The same for DTM, ALMS, FIA GT, NASCAR, etc. For me, some fantasy is fine, so include existing fantasy tracks to fill out a list of venues, leagues too such as Formula GT. A big inclusion should be Race Mod returning with a Livery Editor so we can create our own racing identity, which is particularly important for the online community. And to really support the online community, they need an Event Maker and some sort of club/league management tools allowing users to create private rooms and groups with their own rules.
I could go on and on with this, so I'm kind of done.
- 1,130
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- ppmike921
- MikeB0ssMan
- 7,830
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- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
This is what I was going to say as a possible negative. Now I'm more on the side of jimi and Saidur on this because this is yet again something unheard of in gaming. And while I'd personally prefer more Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Koenigseggs and so on, this is a remarkable thing, involving automakers in the process of furthering both Gran Turismo and these companies. Would I have done this? Probably not, but then I'm not as foxy as Kaz is, and no matter how you cut it, he's pretty darn clever.
Err... this isn't outsourcing. If anything, it's insourcing.
- 10,915
- Sweden
- eran0004
So you're interested in car design, but you're not interested in car design?
Anybody who understands form and perspective can't get a job at Mercedes-Benz. It takes a lot more than that.
While you were asleep, your friends were making the case that modeling VGT cars don't require effort from PD. Which means it's possible to have a 3rd party model a car that fulfills the quality criteria, something which was never possible before.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
I went back and read those posts. But you might as well understand that Kaz is gonna do what Kaz gonna do. He doesn't like outsourcing of any kind. And I'd point out that Forza, the only known king of outsourcing I'm aware of, with a budget as secret as Lockheed's Skunk Works, and more than 400 total people working on Forza 4, has issues with car models. And every game in the series had, with errors of form and function, even being ported through the first three games. So outsourcing can yield you a ton of content if you have the budget for it, but quality control may have to be tighter depending on who you source. And better modeling houses will cost more.
I know there's a hue and cry for outsourcing of models from some of the fanbase, but I can almost guarantee that Kaz isn't moved by it, and likely won't be. He has been beefing up Polyphony over the years with new members, but he's picky, so it's a slow process. This is where you're going to see PD go.
I know there's a hue and cry for outsourcing of models from some of the fanbase, but I can almost guarantee that Kaz isn't moved by it, and likely won't be. He has been beefing up Polyphony over the years with new members, but he's picky, so it's a slow process. This is where you're going to see PD go.
mister dog
(Banned)
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- misterdog
- misterdog7
All you need to do is look at is the FM DLC packs that are steadily released each month. On the downside most of the cars that are released for 5 were already present in FM4, so the added DLC in FM4 was better in that regard, but even still they require a complete remodeling for FM5, so with T10's outsourcing policies (which i suppose are still valid), they have time left to actually include a track once in a while also on top of the car DLC.
If one agrees with the policy of releasing a stripped down game and then adding missing content as DLC, is another question (I don't), but you got to admit that regarding adding DLC, T10 does make it's deadlines and so do most other developers apart from PD where everything is coming "somewhere in the future", but most of it never arrives.
And yes; if there's one person that is the end responsible for both the game being broke, and PD never meeting it's deadlines, it's Kazunori Yamauchi.
If one agrees with the policy of releasing a stripped down game and then adding missing content as DLC, is another question (I don't), but you got to admit that regarding adding DLC, T10 does make it's deadlines and so do most other developers apart from PD where everything is coming "somewhere in the future", but most of it never arrives.
And yes; if there's one person that is the end responsible for both the game being broke, and PD never meeting it's deadlines, it's Kazunori Yamauchi.
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