Why race series fail.

[AngelCreator]

I'm runing this poll to see why race series seem to fail so much.
Now some may think this does belong here, but I want to ask the
people who race in the series so please don't move it.

 

[HondaRacer]

I'd vote... except none of the reasons on there describe why the JGTC seems to continue going to hell. Maybe add an option for "racers are getting lazy"?

 

[Gen.]

Because they're all too similar. If there was actual online competition, as in proper interaction, there would be a lot more racing. Only the hardcore stick for the current race series.

 

[Casio]

First reason is that there is just too many race series on at the one time. The amount of people who would actually race an OLR series at GTP wouldn't be more then 20-30.

At the moment the following series are on or being set-up:
US vs. EU Championship
JGTC S2
2006 FGT
FIA GT3 Championship
Super Taikyu N1 Series
'06 GTP Road Cross
GTP Historic Group C
Dan's 2.3 Sports Car Championship
'70's Classic car series
The Virtual Track Day Series
Weekly Race Series

That's 11 different series at 1 time. GTP does not have enough racers (Despite having ~90,000 members) to sustain this many series.

Second, they have to be run well. Take Nitro_2005's (whatever I can't remember exactly) V8 supercar series a couple of months back. He got a pretty amazing amount of applicants about 30 or. By race 1, he had something in the range of 10 people who actually raced, because it was ran so appallingly, no one had any idea about anything, and people just left.

Third, people don't like to lose. In OLR you can lose sometimes, or you can lose often. In these series, people start to lose, and they quit. Then someone else starts to lose, then they quit. And so on and so forth.

Forth, series are set-up when other series are still going. The last couple of months was an awful time to set up any series. The most popular series the JGTC was starting with a whole bunch of racers, everyone was doing BC qualifiers/races, the ARC was on. Etc. You need to wait until the demand for a new series is their. I've been thinking about a series for about the past 5 months, but the time hasn't been right to get an interest check. Which brings me to my final point.

Fifth, you need racers to have a series. Starting a series in my opinion when you have less then 10 or so racers is bound to end in diaster. What is does is create loads of little series with 5 or so racers, when we should be aiming for a couple of large series where everyone participates.

 

[Tyre King]

First reason is that there is just too many race series on at the one time. The amount of people who would actually race an OLR series at GTP wouldn't be more then 20-30.

At the moment the following series are on or being set-up:
US vs. EU Championship
JGTC S2
2006 FGT
FIA GT3 Championship
Super Taikyu N1 Series
'06 GTP Road Cross
GTP Historic Group C
Dan's 2.3 Sports Car Championship
'70's Classic car series
The Virtual Track Day Series
Weekly Race Series

That's 11 different series at 1 time. GTP does not have enough racers (Despite having ~90,000 members) to sustain this many series.

Second, they have to be run well. Take Nitro_2005's (whatever I can't remember exactly) V8 supercar series a couple of months back. He got a pretty amazing amount of applicants about 30 or. By race 1, he had something in the range of 10 people who actually raced, because it was ran so appallingly, no one had any idea about anything, and people just left.

Third, people don't like to lose. In OLR you can lose sometimes, or you can lose often. In these series, people start to lose, and they quit. Then someone else starts to lose, then they quit. And so on and so forth.

Forth, series are set-up when other series are still going. The last couple of months was an awful time to set up any series. The most popular series the JGTC was starting with a whole bunch of racers, everyone was doing BC qualifiers/races, the ARC was on. Etc. You need to wait until the demand for a new series is their. I've been thinking about a series for about the past 5 months, but the time hasn't been right to get an interest check. Which brings me to my final point.

Fifth, you need racers to have a series. Starting a series in my opinion when you have less then 10 or so racers is bound to end in diaster. What is does is create loads of little series with 5 or so racers, when we should be aiming for a couple of large series where everyone participates.

Well said Brad! I totally argree with most of what you have said there mate.

It seems that because the JGTC S2 sign-up was such a success, guys saw this and thought to themselves " Why not? I have an idea for a series, why not try it now as there are loads of racers around at the minute!"

There just aren't the number of 'dedicated' racers around to support that many new series.
Also the majority of us are in at least two or three series at the same time, and there are only so many hours of free-time in a week!
Just Because a load of drivers say that they are interested in the concept of a new series, does not mean that it should be ran there and then!
I personally liked they idea of a few of the series detailed above by Brad, but don't have the extra spare time to participate NOW, in a few months............who knows.

But by then the series will have died from drop-out syndrome.

The only part I partially disagree with ( well, maybe not disagree with, but want to modify) is the part about not wanting to lose.
It's true that most, if not all of us, want to win. And consistantly losing is not good for some guy's moral.
But at least the older of the racers amongst us (18-100, had to include J.R. there!) know that there are faster guys out there, and accept that we are going to have a hard time winning, and use that fact as the motivator for our continued improvement.
Only some of the younger guys who think the are fast because they can beat all of their mates(and some of them are, so no insult intended), and then find out that they are not really as fast as they thought, drop out because of losing.

Their loss I say!

So in conclusion..........

Too many series trying to start/run at the same time is the main reason for failure.
Just because you have a good idea, and some interest, doesn't mean that the time is ripe for it to be ran.

Neil

 

[SHigSpeed]

Here's my $0.02.

I ran WRS for over 50 weeks missing just ONE submission. Had fun and spent too much time playing just the ONE series. When JGTC S2 came along, I dove in. To do my very best, I don't have time to dedicate to more than one series I feel since for the first week or two I TRIED to do both, but it just didn't work out...

So far it's been fun except for a taking a little getting used to the admin style. Even though WRS had three different admins in the time that I ran, it was very well organized and the results were for the most part posted within an hour of deadline, if not minutes. We discussed the outcome and moved on.

Time discussion (and setup and strategy) save for final times was encouraged and it was generally a cooperative environment.

JGTC is different, though not better or worse. I spend a lot less time yakkin' online about the event and the results are more of a surprise because discussion of times is strictly forbidden.

The admin rules with an iron fist, and that's okay too. No grey areas period.

The ONE thing that frustrates me more than any about it and is the ONE major dissappointment coming from WRS is the lack of prompt results posting. If I'm to toe the line and live by the rules and play nice, I expect the respect in return to have the results posted in a timely manner. If not within an hour, at least post with SOME sort of ETA. Also, this is ESPECIALLY true since the specs of your car change based on race results, and qualifying must be done based on your new specs. By failing to post in a timely manner, the competitors lose precious time, and to me, respect for MY TIME is extremely important. I have a very limited schedule, and if I'm to dedicate my free time to supporting a series, I expect the same dedication in return.

At any rate, I still have fun and it's an interesting season so I'll stick with it for now. Will I return? Hard to say. I'm saddened that the WRS entries are dwindling, and feel a bit guilty about abandoning it. No time for BC, and for sure no time for any of these new series that seem to be sprouting up. Besides, the only reason I jumped into JGTC is because it was established and seemed to have a good chance of success, the playing field was relatively level, and it seemed fun. That's what's important in the end I guess.

Rambled far too long already...

-SHig

 

[GTXDriver]

Lot of people hates to be a loser,it's hard to accept if somebody better than them.
It's the only solution,I think.
When somebody come to learn and want to be only a better driver and to PLAY,then he/she feels damn good and SO AM I,thanks to the creator of the JGTC-series, eatsviper4lunch.
RESPECT,ev4l.

 

[FastEddie12]

Well, I'm nearing the end of the first Virtual Track Day (VTD) series, and I have to say, I think I've been very lucky: take up was good, and there has been very little drop off. I think this has a lot to do with the concept itself: while there is clearly one person who gets fastest time of day, there are plenty of other ppl competing in the other classes who get out there and enjoy themselves. They don't just drive around with their thumb in their bum and their mind in neutral though, they are still competing with the ppl around them.

The classes are a double edged sword, though, as they are very complicated, almost indecipherable in fact, and can lead to some confusion. I am trying to find a simpler class structure for the next series.

Secondly, it's a pretty friendly series (although Goose can be something of a Rottweiler when he wants to be ), and unintimidating in its very nature: I think everyone understands that you're meant to enjoy yourself, help one another out on set-ups, take the mickey a bit, have a bit of banter, and, if you've chosen a rubbish car, trail around at the back of the field looking at the wildlife (honestly, I don't know what else Scaff gets up to in his '70 Mitsubishi GTO ). If all you can do is win or lose, there's bound to be some drop off...

Thirdly, I think we gained ppl by allowing a certain amount of restricted tuning, and encouraging ppl to play with set-ups. We benefitted greatly from the presence of Scaff and Dave_George, who took the series as a tuning exercise as much as a race, and gave some great advice to everyone along the way. Without them, the series would have been half as much fun, and fewer ppl would have got to the end.

You're going to hate me now, but I've never taken part in an OLR series before starting the VTD: why not? It's too intimidating, and I don't feel I'm good enough. Admittedly, I'm not a good example, as I'm not terribly competitive by nature (I know there are plenty of ppl out there faster than me), but I'm still not going to take part in something if I'm only going to lose, and there's no other point to the racing....

My advice? Make merely taking part enjoyable; encourage all the participants; try to build some kind of team spirit; try to make sure there's some interest for everyone; plus be efficient and fair (as said above).

That's the organiser's perspective, I'd love to know what the participants think...

 

[Ricfight]

I'd vote... except none of the reasons on there describe why the JGTC seems to continue going to hell. Maybe add an option for "racers are getting lazy"?

I agree with you..."racers are getting lazy...","and some of them just can't accept loosing..."
None of the reasons seems apropriated.
I can't vote ,sorry.
Explendid job is being done by EV4L in JGTC_S2 Series.Thanks

 

[Scaff]

I have to echo FastEddie12's comments here, I've never considered entering a race series of any kind before the Virtual Track Day series.

Its mainly non-competative nature appealed to me (I did act as a kind of technical support to the Nurburgring Race Series that Dave_George ran), as the aim of the series is as much about having fun as it is about setting a fast time.

I've always rated myself a better tuner than racer, but having said that the VTD series has pushed me to become a faster and better driver, seeing my times fall each and every week, as well as being able to pass on some tuning knowledge has made the series very enjoyable.

the series does opperate on a kind of 'honour' system with regard to times, but I can recomend it (when the second series starts) to anyone looking for a fun and non-threatening introduction to racing.

Just for the record I have to follow around at the back in the Galant to pick up all the broken bits from Ed's cars.

Regards

Scaff

 

[FastEddie12]

Incidentally, I think there is an issue with publicity for OLR series as a whole: if you only talk about the series in this section, then no-one outside OLR racers will hear about it. I think a vital ingredient to the success of the VTD series was being able to generate excitement for the series in the main forum before the series started.

Also how do you decide which series to enter? If there are 11 series running, you need to run through 11 threads to figure out which one suits you best.

💡 How about a sticky thread that details all current events, that you can look at in one go, kept up to date by mods? If it goes in the empty forum section (which then gets put at the top of the page), it can cover both long and short series. If there is a set format that every organiser has to submit, (detailing eligible cars, number of rounds, circuits used, race format, basic information like that) ppl will be able to compare 1 series to another with ease. Each submission could include the URL to the main introductory post to the relevant series... etc

And while we're on the subject, why not make use of that empty section? Encourage discussion of OLR series before and after the event, get some kind of banter going, make it an area ppl want to visit? At the moment it's like an empty room, with blue tac on the walls, phones on the floor, and clean squares on the carpet where there used to be filing cabinets......

 

[ICallShotgun]

Well, i tell you what all, i just discovered online racing in the last 4-6 weeks, and let me say it is the best thing since playing GT for the first time. whomping the computer is nice and all, but thinking your a bad@$$ and then realizing that you run at the back of the pack...it's motivation to learn new lines and new ways around tracks.

in just the short time i've been racing, my lap-times against the AI have fallen dramatically (15+seconds at N'ring in the same car). Yes, you do have to pick-and-choose what you race in (didn't enter USvEU or FGT or VTD), but when you do, to see where you measure up and strive to do better? that's half the fun.

and incidentally Eddie, I have a couple ideas to definately smoothe out classes and categories. PM me if you're interested.

 

[AngelCreator]

Now this what I wanted to see:tup:, and I have found out some things too.
I know that I don't have all the right things to vote on but the idea is good I think.
Please keep saying what the ORL needs and maybe people will start to fix some
of the problems. And thanks to everone.

 

[guska]

I can't really comment here, as I have only had experience with one series, which is run pretty well, and seems to be going quite well. I am talking about the Virtual Track Day series, run my FastEddie12. The small number of participants seems to add to the ideal of friendly competition, while the rules/regulations remove much of the competitive focus, and it runs as it was intended, as a friendly series, that showcases different people's tuning abilities.

 

[xjr-9]

I agree with FastEddie12, Scaff and gOoSeTeR, because they virtual track day series has been a success. Yes, I didn't read the rules down to a fine point at the start, but it was fun trying to beat people in similar cars with (Probably) better skills.

xjr-9

 

[NightmareHunter]

Creator does not keep it updated is what I said. Thats what happened to the GTSCC. The GTSCC was the reson I came here, that and AngelCreator tould me about it. My brother worked really hard on his championship, and then to shut it down do to lack of entrys. It's sad.

 

[Soyfu]

Personally, I don't mind losing, at all. For me, the best part is to find out that it's possible to go faster. That's fuel for my fire and keeps me thinking about driving (which I love almost more than anything).

Why series fail...

1. With so many series running at the same time, I find it way too easy to overextend myself. Then it just becomes a challenge to participate rather than the challenge of competition.

2. Life. It's possible to unknowingly overextend yourself. You can be going along for a while with time to spare but then something happens and your schedule changes. You either have less free time or have free time at the wrong time of the day to get behind the wheel. Then you can't enjoy it.

3. Summer slump. Vacations. Sunny days. Summer jobs. It all makes for spotty participation from June-September.

 

[Tedehur]

I agree with most of statements expressed above, but I'd just like to add one extra point that I haven't seen mentioned in the thread :

Thematic series need to be short.
They require a perfect preparation and administration (plus some luck) to keep racers running 10 or 15 races of a similar format (ie : F1, JGTC, WRC series).
Over the time, there's always a poor race, or a thread argument, or a missing rule eventually found out that spoils the series, or else it's simply the repetition of similar races that just eventually kills the appeal of the first races.
Dave_George's NRS is the only very long series that I know to have been successful from race 1 till the end. But it was wonderfully prepared, with the car power going crescendo, votes to select the car for each race, and it was using a track that is 10 times longer than any other one. All this managed to introduce enough fresh air into each race to keep racers appealled.


From that conclusion that a series has to be short to have a greater chance of being successful, I've always wondered why the WRS has been running for 3 years and a half now.
The answer is : because it's not thematic.
There's no link between 2 consecutive races, and they even try to be as different as to cover opposite aspects of the game (ie : GT / Arcade, or FF / MR, or race / road...). It means that racers will regularly find races that they like and that will usually make up for the races they don't like.
In addition to that, nobody is requested to be faithful. People join, race for a while, leave when they have not enough fun anymore, come back later and are welcomed, in a very natural process.
The dwindling Scott mentions is part of this natural process. We will never have again 80+ submissions a week as it happened for the very first races. At that time GT4 had just been released and a lot of racers joined for a few weeks only. Now the game is a year and a half old, most racers have moved on to other games, and only hard core GT4-ers or people who discovered the game recently play as much as the WRS level requires.
We're now at 24 submissions a week, which is more than the GT3 WRS at the same period (about 18 subs a week).

One final word before I'm going to bed (I have to wake up in 4.5 hours and then drive 800 miles to bring the family to the place we'll spend our holidays in) : don't blame people for posting results late Scott.
It's an awful job to compile and posts results and it can take hours to someone who's not well organized : ask Bigracer who tried and posted unofficial results while I was away and had no internet connection !

I'm the one to blame because I gave you the (bad) habit of having results posted within one minute after deadline, but I have a military-like organization :
- A spreadsheet up-to-date with all drivers and their division.
- Another one where I type in submitted times as I receive them, and which calculates automatically the ranking, the gold/silver/bronze classification, and prepares the ranking to be pasted in the thread.
- I open a new thread 15 minutes before deadline and paste a template without results, then I type in the introduction text and congrats.
- 3 minutes before deadline I copy/paste the text prepared by the spreadsheet and keep on refreshing a second session to check PMs.
- When the deadline is reached, I post the thread, then edit it to add the poll (where all options are saved by my browser and automatically proposed when I type in the first letter)

The result is that you get the results at 9:01 PM (deadline is at 9:00 PM), but the whole process takes about one hour, and I spend a whole day creating the formulas in the spreadsheet.
(Hope there's not too many typos, I have no time to read this before posting).

 

[SHigSpeed]

Hey FO,

I don't "blame" anyone for late posting per se. I realize what kind of organization is required to post results in a timely manner. OTOH, if the organizer rules with an iron fist and insists on military discipline and commitment from the participants, then the same should reflect back to him especially when delayed posting is to the measureable detriment to the competitor.

In WRS if you don't post results for a day or three, it doesn't affect the following week (no thematic continuity, right?) whereas in JGTC, the race results predicate your car setup for the following week.

One last comment re: thematic continuity - that's one reason why I like the JGTC series is that I have the same car every week save for any weight and power penalty I may have incurred. It can go both ways though I guess. If I hated my car, then I'd be less likely to continue.

-SHig

 

[Tedehur]

Makes sense.
Sorry for the long post, I was starting a 2,000 miles trip the next day and couldn't go to sleep.

 

[goixoye]

Why did race series fail for me?

Because I got bored of racing by myself and then submitting a time. I was spending as much time posting as I was racing (of course this was my fault). I really didn't like running lap after lap after lap by myself...shaving off nanoseconds. There is absolutely no way to get decent on track competition with the AI. No "real time" on-line competition.

These are not flaws of gtp but rather the game.

I've been racing TOCA Race Driver 3 (TRD3) on-line with a great group of primarily Australian folks who "simulate" the V8 Supercar series. So we run multi-lap events (75 laps at Adelaide last week, 2x 50 laps this week at Pukekohe). We have damage, tuning, strategy. I'm actually spending less time racing and on their forum (because we can talk to each other (exchanging info and what-not) during practice and the races, which to a large extent is what is accomplished in the forum here).

The in car graphics and physics are as good as GT4. The games suffers compared to GT4 in replays (almost non-existent) and no photomode. Unfortunately there is no customization or personalization of the cars (at least in PS2 version, probably can tweak that with the PC version).

So GT4 is gathering dust and has become 2nd to TRD3. I'll race GT4 only rarely when I might want to drive a particular car. If you're a "hard-core" video game racer type GT4 blows.

BTW on-line with TRD3 I'm still equivalent to my D3 (mediocre) rating over here. So I didn't leave to find so place where I could feed my ego...it's still starving but I'm enjoying the racing 👍

 

[MagpieRacer]

My world gt series last year was getting 10-12 racers every week. imo, race series fail for lack of organisation, i am guilty of this with the formula gt championship.

 

[AngelCreator]

I am thinking about starting a new poll with what you all have said.
What I want to know is how long should I run it?

 

[Danisfast]

Run it for a month. Then if its generating loads of interest, you can run another one for longer...seems like you've stumbled on a good idea here though AngelCreator. I know I could certainly use this information!!
Danisfast

 

[AngelCreator]

Thanks Danisfast, I have the poll all ready so I will get it up in a few days.