Why?

Discussion in 'Hybriding' started by MisterWhiskers, Mar 8, 2013.

?

Do you support hybrids?

Poll closed Apr 8, 2013.
  1. Yes!

    75.7%
  2. No!

    24.3%
  1. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,660
    You don't have to see the fine print to know what's right or wrong or to know if a commercially sold software have copyright that is protected by law. What's your computer OS ? Windows ? Does that comes with copyright ? Do Microsoft allows you to make a custom OS by modifying the contents ( codes ) ?

    Copyright covers a lot of bases, piracy, distributing, broadcasting, altering the contents included. We own PS3 when we buy it, it's ours to use, but we still have to follow the license agreement for the PS3 system ( I posted the link earlier ). There are always limitation to all electronic devices that we use, because companies who made them have patents, copyrights, licenses etc.

    If you have GT5, check the manual, last few pages, under limited warranty, there's unauthorized use of product sub section

    The license to own and use the copy of GT5. The copyright notices are right at the bottom of the page. I have the manual - from original 1st release GT5.

    Here is the interesting part, the copyright of the cars, associated imagery and materials licensed to PD is also protected by the law, now with hacked cars, they literally messed up the cars that are licensed by manufacturer to PD.

    I wonder what the implication to PD, when car manufacturer knows about the hybrids, what does Ferrari, Nissan, Toyota and other car maker feels about their represented cars being hacked ? Do they allow this in their license agreement with PD ?

    Encrypted file means the creator does not want it to be accessed by unauthorized user. I am not talking about whether the PS3 FW is legit or not. Hybrids only uses edited game save, I know that, I can edit the save too if I want to, but I chose not to do it.

    If you don't feel bad about what you did, good for you then, not all people are the same when it comes to moral and integrity.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  2. arora

    arora (Banned)

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    4,098
    But you do if you want to know what contract you have agreed to.

    Speaking of the psn tos again I presume.


    Indeed, usually limited to some of the things you spoke of above, not what we can do on our own for ourselves only.

    That is a weak argument I've seen over and over on gtp about this subject. The license sellers know damn well how pd is representing their products and most likely also know the risks involved with video gaming contracts.

    Lets not mention the fact that everyone under the sun uses photo shop to alter said cars.
     
  3. Tornado

    Tornado

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    38,212

    Now you're claiming that to do so breaks the copyright PD have on the game software; and thus hybriding is a violation of copyright law, which:
    Your argument was already disproven in two other threads; one of them a thread in site support that stated the most it does is break Sony's ToS. It's not against copyright law for the end user to modify the game environment to his liking (the fact that devices were sold on the market for 20 years that did exactly that is kind of telling in regards to how illegal it is). It's not against copyright law for the end user to modify Windows to his liking. It's against the law to distribute that changed software without permission, or to take portions of the software/content and distribute that; but it's not against the law to distribute things that can change the software, the changes themselves or instructions for doing so.

    How do those car makers already feel about the huge misrepresentation some of them have in GT5? Shelby has 3 cars in GT5 and 2 of them are incorrect by a wide margin. Spyker has one and the car was functionally broken for the first year after the game was on sale. Lamborghini has 9 cars in the game, and all but 2 of them are wrong, including one that PD made up the specs for entirely; essentially an official hybrid. I don't see any of them pulling their licences for that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  4. X R 8

    X R 8

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    When people buy the game they are spending their hard earned money that they worked to get.
    The person who bought the game should be damn right able to do whatever the hell they please.

    And if you quote this post complaining then I will not read it.

    Another thing. I'm sick with all these frickin' hybrid threads. If you really need to challenge the topic then look at the hundreds of other threads.

    Sorry if I seem rude but I have not been myself lately...................
     
  5. arora

    arora (Banned)

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    4,098
    We've been successfully hybridizing you muahahaha

    :lol:
     
  6. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,660
    @ Toronado :

    My main concern is the act of hacking the game save, which is wrong in my opinion.

    About the law, I don't really care if they break it or not, it's their problem. I only follow what's right according to my moral conscience and I held up my integrity when I decided not to mess with something I should not to.

    About the car licenses, I assume all manufacturer are aware of the game contents when PD signed the deal with them. They allow it as agreed by both parties ( PD and manufacturer ). The problem now is, another party who never signed the agreement made changes to their heart's content. I honestly don't know if the car maker will ignore this or will they take this hybrids into consideration on their future license deal.

    Windows is a proprietary commercial software, I don't see how modifying it is not against the law.


    Taken from Windows 8 EULA.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  7. arora

    arora (Banned)

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    4,098
    Something you cannot impose on others.

    There will be zero repercussions.
     
  8. Tornado

    Tornado

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    Then don't comment about how they are breaking the law.

    I don't know if you realize this, but this particular subforum has been here for over a decade now. Hybriding isn't new to GT5, and I'd argue that it was a hell of a lot bigger when GT3 was the big game than it is now. Hybriding in GT3 even allowed you to gain access to a car that in no uncertain terms PD did not have the licence for in the US, namely the Lamborghini Diablo.


    And lo and behold, we have Lamborghini in GT5 anyway.


    Think about that for a second. If modifying Windows was against the law, you wouldn't be able to install anything on your computer unless Microsoft made it or approved it. I don't understand how you can have a CS degree and work in IT and not realize that it's perfectly legal for the end user (important distinction) to modify Windows to their liking. Even something as simple as installing tweaked graphics drivers would be illegal if it was against the law to modify the system.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  9. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,660
    Well, I'm not forcing others to follow me, I was just stating my view and opinion. I feel sorry about the current condition of online portion of GT5 ( mainly public lobbies ) as some of my friends have their rooms "invaded" by these hybrids, but I am yet to have my room ruined, as I have comfort medium and no ABS restriction when I am hosting a public lobby.

    How can you be so sure that there will be no repercussions ?

    I only said about them breaking the terms of use agreement, I also know about past GT hybrids, but they were not online capable, not sure if that would make any difference now.

    I was talking about modifying the OS ( reverse engineer, disassemble, altering the codes,etc ) not the general users capability ( installing software ) There's a big difference there as most users don't even know how to defeat the built in protections in the OS.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  10. R1600Turbo

    R1600Turbo Premium

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    You act like this has never been done before. It's not much different from the hybrids that were created in GT2, GT3, and I think GT4 (I don't have experience with them in GT4) except that this time it's done manually through decryption of the save instead of using a program like MK's. (which basically does the same thing, just easier to use)

    The only difference now is that we have online play.
     
  11. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Staff Emeritus

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    Even GT1, too; I was on regular speaking terms with one of the (accidental) creators of them way back then.

    Turbo's right, though; this is exactly the same as MK's program a decade ago, the only difference is he provided a GUI to make it easier for people to understand what they were doing. That, and it was much easier for him to amass a database of all the parts in the game, since he was working with ~200 cars.

    If anything, judging by the variables contained, it shows PD has done little to change their system in the past 10 years.
     
  12. Maccer_42

    Maccer_42

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    :tup: This makes me question Kaz's words he said a long time ago early or before the release of GT5 about how they "threw away the code from GT4 and wrote GT5's code from scratch". Maybe I imagined that, but i'm almost positive he said something along those lines. Well it might be new code but I guess it's still structured in the same old format as it was 10 years ago in GT3.
    Also just thinking the code can't be that "new" if glitchs like the transmission flip still work the same way they did in previous GT games, and it can't be an intended feature otherwise PD would have gave instructions on how to do it when pressing the "?" on the transmission when in the tunning garage.

    Also unrelated to what I quoted, some people feel and mention that these hybrids ruin the integrity of the game, to me hybrids do nothing to effect the integrity of the game, it's integrity was ruined by PD them selfs by not giving us proper options to regulate online rooms/lobbys.

    By not giving us proper dedicated servers to race on, insted we have to rely on peer to peer connections.

    By allowing corner cutting to take place in every seasonal time trial, (No doubt top 10 time trialers are skilled no question about that but when only your outside tyres are just touching the inside white line and the rest of your car is over the grass/curb it's not a clean lap)

    By taking many years to develope the game and still having so many incorrect spefications for cars (https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=193920&highlight=incorrect and there is many, many more incorrect car specs than what is just posted in that list, some cars even have the incorrect body for what their model should be)

    To me hybrids are just a mere blip of the many things that effect the integrity of the Gran Turismo franchise.
    /End rant.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  13. Fazerfan

    Fazerfan

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    1,759
    Location:
    Finland
    Painting non paintable cars, more suspension settings, engine swap----Yes (Offline).

    Adding more HP-----------------------------------------------------No.
     
  14. Patruck GT2

    Patruck GT2

    Messages:
    168
    Location:
    Italy
    Made hybrids in Gt2 and GTPSP, of every kind. Obviously not online, although one should make some distinctions. For example, I'd consider perfectly legal to have engine-swapped cars in online mode, or even extreme cars which could be, somehow, related to reality. The problem is, who's going to tell wheter a car is legal or not? This is why online should be restricted (as it officially is) to non-hybrid cars.
    Also I'd get quite angry if I got beaten by a hybrid car during a race in online mode. I mean, do some people really like easy winning? That's pointless.
     
  15. PR1VATEJ0KER

    PR1VATEJ0KER

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    Each car records all of it's parts in every GT. You could say it's unnecessary.
    i.e. Instead of recording a car's Chassis, Susp, Transmission etc.. we just have the car's ID.
    But PD like to record each part, this could be in case they wish to adapt the game in some way,
    or it could be for efficiency.
    (Because a table of car's parts does not need consulting every time the car loads).

    Saying that GT4 & GT5 have not changed in this way is like saying, there is little difference between GT1 & GT5 because they both record their data in a binary file (It's just how they record the data)

    It is different, the only similarity is the IDs of the cars & part IDs
    There are an extra 200+bytes recorded for each car's param blob in GT5.
    The order is not identical either.
    If you stick with a system that works it reduces time to develop/debug and improves reliability. No need to re-invent the wheel for each iteration of the series.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  16. Colin Howell

    Colin Howell

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    Not just that, but multiple cars use the same parts. For instance, the same engine or transmission may be shared by multiple car models. This is the source of some specification errors in GT2, in which sometimes a car will be set to use the wrong engine or transmission. (Examples: GT2's 1998 Daihatsu Mira TX uses the turbocharged engine of the Mira TR instead of its real naturally aspirated engine, and GT2's Fiat Cinquecento Sporting uses a Suzuki kei car transmission.)

    It would be nice if they fixed long-standing physics bugs, though. GT2 unfairly penalizes cars with small engines by giving them the same engine rotational inertia as cars with large engines. This makes the small-engined cars accelerate slower than they actually would, since they must spend more of their limited power merely spinning the engine up. (This web page explains in detail how rotational inertia, in particular that of the engine, affects a car's acceleration.) The effect is especially strong in low gears, when the ratio of engine speed to car speed is much greater. It has a big effect on 0-60mph and quarter-mile times, and naturally would also have an impact when accelerating after having slowed for a tight corner. It's this effect that a lightened flywheel is designed to reduce, but even GT2's lightest racing flywheel cannot overcome the horrible penalty of forcing a 660 cc engine (or worse yet, a 360 cc one) to spin up the effective mass of a 3000 cc engine.

    What surprised and disappointed me was to find (based on a comment by Shirakawa Akira and on some acceleration times in Parnelli Bone's GT Car Reviews as compared with real acceleration times for those cars) that this bug has never been fixed; it's present all the way to GT5. (Example: Parnelli Bone tested the 550 cc Mitsubishi Minica Dangan ZZ and got 0-60 times in the 15-17 second range. Australian auto magazine Autospeed tested the real thing and got a time around 12 seconds using "a relatively gentle launch".) And it's not like the bug would be hard to fix; all you need to do is appropriately scale a constant by the size of the engine. (This may not be as accurate as a precise calculation of the engine's rotational inertia, but it would be close enough to eliminate the unfair penalty.) It seems to be a matter of either not bothering, or even worse, deciding that people now expect the little cars to be slugs and would be upset if that changed.
     
  17. quatschkopp

    quatschkopp

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    Either your shift key broke or you're not realizing that your caps-lock is stuck when you are raging..
    Set up decent limits in your online room and you should be save.. Or go and participate in Time Trials. As they are running on fixed cars right now, there should be no way of cheating.. :tup:
     
  18. PR1VATEJ0KER

    PR1VATEJ0KER

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    I just checked and from 1019 unique cars I found 1019 unique engine IDs & transmission IDs.
    So any shared parts could only be data innaccuracy.

    These are also inaccuracies in data, not a system problem.
     
  19. Colin Howell

    Colin Howell

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    Well, it sounds like you're talking about GT5; the examples I gave were from GT2. And I'm a bit surprised to hear that all of GT5's cars have unique engines and transmissions, because engines and transmissions are shared amongst real cars.

    You're assuming that the game includes data on individual cars' engine inertia. It may not, in which case the program code must compute a reasonable estimate.

    In any case, the real issue as far as I'm concerned is that for over ten years, the GT series' developers have neglected to fix a problem which clearly hurts the series' performance realism, and does so in a fashion which is easily tested and verified, even though a solution is as simple as multiplying two numbers. (Simple enough that it might even be fixable in GT2 with a Gameshark code, applied to the right area.)
     
  20. StarLight

    StarLight

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    6,643
    I totally agree with you ... but replica builders want to built a car as close they can be to the specifications.

    For example: Gallardo Underground replica

    The car is more than 1000HP and with a twin Turbo and so on ... in GT5 there is no way to built such a car, so hybriding is the only way out.

    Other parts are needed as well, like other chassis, exhaust or engine.
    Maybe you want to built a specific replica, a Lotus with a Honda engine.

    Hybriding is something PD must think about. They supply hundreds of gear, horns and MC's ... but sadly forget the replica builders.
    So let people create there fantasies or try to built a real replica.

    Further they let paint you a lot of cars but some totally not (I know car builders licenses and so on issues) ... but for God's sake, it's only a game.
    Every car present in GT5 is free publicity for the car builders in the real world.

    PD should also think about this, repainting a car, wheels or carbon hoods and so on, is no big deal ... it won't harm nobody.

    And another thing PD really should consider is to deliver a Livery Editor in GT6, so replica builders and others have the possibility to chance the look of their car ... something Forza did and also many games.

    Anyway, hacking, modding or what ever you will call ... will always be there but PD in this case could discourage this by supplying the above discussed topics.

    That's my personally thought's.
     
  21. Tornado

    Tornado

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    38,212
    Actually, if the system still fails to take into account engine inertia as a data point because the system is virtually unchanged since they switched to it in GT3 and it's leading to performance issues that large, it is a problem with the limitations of the system that they are using.



    To say nothing about how the "performance multiplier" power modification concept that they've used since GT3 is the entire reason that the tuning system is so antiquated.
     
  22. Bounkazz

    Bounkazz

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    830
    Enough said. GT5 realistic?

    [​IMG]
     
  23. Mubble

    Mubble

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    Before GT5 came out, it seemed everybody was asking if there would be the option to transplant different engines, adjust wheel size, slam the suspension, remove spoilers, make 1200bhp GTRs.

    When the game came out the modding options were limited. In fact, there is very little to do in GT5 when you're off the race track.

    Someone found a way to implement the things a lot of us wanted in the final version of the game, but which were never included. The fact you have to put the game data in to a piece of software to access these options doesn't bother me at all.

    I think the fact that hybrids have been so popular highlights the fact that a lot of GT5 players were bored with the game. Me included.

    To all the people against hybrids, let me ask you this:

    If you had the option of creating (in the game) a 1200bhp Nissan GTR Black Edition which used the brutal-sounding engine from a Calsonic GTR (GT500), or putting a 1240bhp Chevvy engine in to an Elise to replicate a Hennessey Venom GT would you?

    I'm going to assume you would.

    Well, just because it's not an official option in the game shouldn't be a big stumbling block for you. It opens up a whole new line of creativity in an otherwise dying game.

    I understand the frustration with people driving around in 50000bhp Veyrons, but mildly tuned, painted and stanced cars shouldn't bug you this much.
     
  24. KiroKai

    KiroKai

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    1,483
    ^ Completely agree. Modding is what some fans do in every game once they get bored after some time, to create new stuff, be creative, create awesomeness. I don't see why it should be different for GT5. Sure, currently it's being abused by morons, but there are a lot of responsible hybrid users and creators, making the game a lot better and innovative.
     
  25. C53A 4G63T

    C53A 4G63T

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    People saying that they won't use hybrids because, the creators, went to so much trouble making the game how it is, need a reality check. If you want to follow that line of thought, then upgrading turbos and the suspension in game is a slight against the hard workers who created the vehicles in the first place. If it has 120hp from the factory, thats what it should have in the game. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
     
  26. PR1VATEJ0KER

    PR1VATEJ0KER

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    :lol: I love this
     
  27. MisterWhiskers

    MisterWhiskers

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    :lol: Turbos and all that special shizzle is called aftermarket. If that were the case the manufacturer would do something about it. :idea: And if I bought the cake, I wanna eat it!
     
  28. Master Weasel

    Master Weasel Premium

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    If it's wrong, then why can anyone buy Game Sharks and Action Replays to do this very thing?
     
  29. MisterWhiskers

    MisterWhiskers

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    You can buy drugs, correct? Just because you are able to buy something, doesn't mean it's necessarily right to use or do whatever with it. What a brain fart moment...
     
  30. Master Weasel

    Master Weasel Premium

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    Comparing cheating devices to drugs, which can harm and potentially kill you? Terrible analogy. My point is, if things like Action Replay are "wrong" then they would be outlawed and major retailers wouldn't be selling them. As stated earlier, this has been going on since GT1.