Will General Motors declare bankruptcy?

[Joey D]

ive heard what you've said and i differ in opinion. that makes me an idiot? who decided that? coz i wasnt consulted.

It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of logic. Logic says a RWD sedan from GM is stupid right now.

some of us dont care for front wheel drive, snowy clime or not.

Younger males care, the rest of the population could give a damn...they want a nice ride and good looks.

so eff off with your supercilious attitude. just because you've said something many many times doesnt mean its gospel. keep repeating yourself and maybe some of the sheep here will eventually believe you. not me.

That's right blame me for saying something over and over again when it obivious you guys are pretty thick and can't understand the big picture. Sure RWD is nice if you want a sporty car, but FWD is what people want to buy because its cheaper. Pull your head out of the clouds and think of the most average 40 year old person.

Uh, you might want to check again and confirm which car is being driven by a jackass...

Well the guy in the Prius isn't a Jackass...he's more of a tool.

 

[Wolfe]

Well the guy in the Prius isn't a Jackass...he's more of a tool.

So says the GM employee living in Michigan who is often found defending and/or praising GM around here...

Please argue against the many times I've been in snow in the mountains and seen RWD cars helplessly lighting their tires and going nowhere while the FWD cars trundled smugly away.

Please argue against the time years ago when I was out in an oilfield on bare clay in the rain, and watched a RWD Caprice that was unable to move as its driver tried everything to get some traction, while I motored off with no problem at all in my FWD Buick Special.

I'll do that as soon as you argue against the many times I've seen a FWD car that has missed a turn and understeered forward into a ditch or traffic light pole.

Or the many FWD cars I've easily accelerated away from in snowy weather, in my RWD BMW.

Or how I've had two close calls in snowy conditions with my parents' FWD Oldsmobile, and zero in my BMW.

Please explain how RWD is as good as FWD in very slick conditions.

FWD places more weight on the front axle than the rear axle, which helps prevent wheelspin and assists acceleration from a dead stop.

RWD cars experience a weight shift from the front of the car to the rear of the car under acceleration, which helps prevent wheelspin and assists acceleration at any speed; albeit, not as much as FWD's weight helps.

FWD cars tend to understeer, very much so in inclement conditions. Driver's education classes do not teach anything about understeer. Much of the general population doesn't know what it is, and won't expect it. Therefore, ordinary drivers of FWD cars often find themselves going straight when they wanted to turn, and ending up in an accident.

RWD cars tend to oversteer in inclement conditions. Driver's education classes always teach students how oversteer is the most horrible thing that can happen in a car, ever, and then teach how to correct it. Much of the general population is scared to death of it, and will do everything in their power to avoid it. Therefore, ordinary drivers of RWD cars often find themselves driving more slowly in snowy or rainy conditions, will know to countersteer if a slide begins (although they won't know how much, or when to start/stop), and will let off of the throttle immediately if a slide does indeed begin.

Since driver's education classes teach students about oversteer and generally ignore the differences between drivetrains, FWD drivers, if faced with an oversteer situation, might suddenly countersteer, allowing the front wheels to pull them into a spin.

Bottom line: FWD cars have the advantage off the line, but lose it as soon as they start moving. RWD cars are no more dangerous than FWD cars, offer more controllability than FWDs if you know what you're doing, and are only a nuisance in wintertime everyday traffic if you're too god damned lazy to want to deal with moving the steering wheel now and then to keep the tail in check.

EDIT: By the way, this argument was based entirely on simple car motions, without the interference of traction control, stability control, or any other electronic nanny cars have these days. As Raghavan and YSSMAN have said, those systems are incredibly helpful in inclement conditions.

Not all RWD cars are the heavy, torquey, floaty boats that America came to know and loathe (in northern climes) in the 1970's and earlier.

Ok I conceed. Shows just how similair yet different our societies are.

Actually, it shows how different areas of the U.S. can have different values/cultures/preferences.

With Blazin living in the Detroit area of Michigan, his opinions and the opinions of those around him are going to be based on the values and culture of that area (no offense Blazin). Of course he'll know a lot of teenagers and people who want Detroit iron, whether its a car or a truck.

Most kids in my city want a Civic or 240SX, and many, many, many kids in the states are the same way. If it isn't one of those two, it's another "sports compact," preferably an asian one. There are hardly any truck enthusiasts around my town.

As for BMWs, the M3 is regarded by american auto enthusiasts as one of the most overrated cars on the planet for a reason: Young enthusiasts (read: teenagers, college-age enthusiasts) lust over them.

 

[neanderthal]

It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of logic. Logic says a RWD sedan from GM is stupid right now.

logic says a RWD vehicle is exactly what GM needs right now. if you dont believe me refer to mustang, charger, 300, magnum, IS350, G35, 3 series et al. try totalling up the sales figures of those cars.
thats a whole lot of pie that GM aint eating.

Younger males care, the rest of the population could give a damn...they want a nice ride and good looks.

first of all, did you poll them all? no, thought so.
who cares what young males want. they dont have the money to buy a new car in most cases anyway. or they cant afford the insurance.
theres a craze thats catching on, you might have heard of it, its called drifting. the preferred drive system is RWD. look at prices of 240SXs and AE86 corollas lately if you havent bothered. those young males you think want a FWD car, might want a RWD given a nice enough, common enough, and inexpensive enough platform.

That's right blame me for saying something over and over again when it obivious you guys are pretty thick and can't understand the big picture. Sure RWD is nice if you want a sporty car, but FWD is what people want to buy because its cheaper. Pull your head out of the clouds and think of the most average 40 year old person.

the avg 40 year old would rather know that thier car has all those electrical assistive systems than know that its FWD vs RWD. even if they dont konw how they work, theyll be happy if they are told about them and know theyre there.
so again i see that youre the all knowing, and everyone who differs in opinion is "thick headed." do you really think you are the only person who keeps up with whats going on in the auto industry.
do you think you are the only one here who has worked for a manufacturer?
do you think you are the only one here who has a brain?
i suggest you tone down your rhetoric, because youre not. you arent the only one keeping up with industry goings on, or teh only one employed by a manufacturer or the only one with a brain. take your condescending attitude and stick where you **** from. your OPINION is not fact! get over yourself.

are you implying that people who are environmentally conscious are "tools?"

 

[Raghavan]

Please argue against the many times I've been in snow in the mountains and seen RWD cars helplessly lighting their tires and going nowhere while the FWD cars trundled smugly away.

Please argue against the time years ago when I was out in an oilfield on bare clay in the rain, and watched a RWD Caprice that was unable to move as its driver tried everything to get some traction, while I motored off with no problem at all in my FWD Buick Special.

Please explain how RWD is as good as FWD in very slick conditions.

I've seen many FWD's in snow just spinning their wheels while RWD's just get up and go. The weight transfer goes back as the car moves forward, and in RWD's, it gives more traction to the driving wheels. In FWD's, they move back off the front driving wheels, so they just sit there spinning away.
RWD's aren't hard to drive in snow. Back when we were in denver, my dad had a Toyota Truck. He never had any problems, and he'd just plop some sandbags into the bed for more traction. Try duct taping sandbags onto the hood of your FWD car. HA! And that Caprice, those didn't have traction control and whatnot, a car with that will be much better than your ol' Buick.

 

[Swift]

It always makes me laugh when people try to argue FWD vs RWD and talk about winter time driving. It's ALL about the driver. Period. Actually, it's about the driver and tire width. But it's not about the drivetrain.

I'd just thought I'd through that in there.

AWD is a completely different story.

 

[niky]

It always makes me laugh when people try to argue FWD vs RWD and talk about winter time driving. It's ALL about the driver. Period. Actually, it's about the driver and tire width. But it's not about the drivetrain.

I'd just thought I'd through that in there.

AWD is a completely different story.

Well somebody had to go and say the words "wrong wheel drive". And up there, yes, I completely agree with you.

Anyone who thinks that, in the absence of traction control, FWD cars will not oversteer in slick conditions and RWD will not understeer hasn't done much of either. I've gone mud-plugging in an FWD behind a RWD, and we were both sideways and doing fine. Like Swift says, it's all about the driver.

Weight transfer to the rear of a RWD car in slick conditions only happens after you start accelerating. That's why FWD cars are easier to control in the slick for novice drivers, because the weight is already over the drive wheels. I've seen lots of dumbasses spinning tires on heavy RWD vehicles in slick conditions... paradoxically, this is on inclines, with the weight shifted towards the rear. Again, that's for dumbasses, who can **** up with either FWD or RWD.

FWD does tend to understeer, but most drivers won't feel that understeer in a well-set-up FWD car unless they take it on track. And even on track, the only difference between FWD and RWD is that FWD drivers can sometimes go into turns much hotter, jink to create oversteer, and use the throttle to straighten the car out... while RWD drivers can get on the throttle much much earlier in other corners, and balance the car on the throttle and steering in places where FWD drivers have to either get off the gas or ride out the understeer. A RWD is always going to be faster, but mostly because they put the power down better. There are some FWD cars that can handle as well as comparable RWD cars.

As for driving feel, compromises to the steering of FWDs due to the drivetrain are pretty minimal nowadays and only matter at ten-tenths... if at all. And with power steering, variable steering and electrical steering standard on many modern cars, I bet you I could get more steering "feel" out of a crappy old Beetle or Golf than many performance cars nowadays.

Manufacturers like FWD because it's cheap, easy to package, light, and because FWD ensures that in many cases, your chances of going into an accident head first are assured. That gives you the extra protection of that nice big engine, that strong front crumple zone, and your airbags. That means designers initially only had to engineer safety systems from the front.

With modern safety systems and driving aids, those advantages aren't very big anymore.

Each system has its pros and cons, and I wouldn't call either "wrong-wheel-drive".

 

[Poverty]

I think some of you guys are also missing how much fun a FWD vehicle can be with minimum practicality comprimise.

 

[Joey D]

logic says a RWD vehicle is exactly what GM needs right now. if you dont believe me refer to mustang, charger, 300, magnum, IS350, G35, 3 series et al. try totalling up the sales figures of those cars.
thats a whole lot of pie that GM aint eating.

That's why they have the GTO, it competes with the Charger adn Mustang. A RWD sedan would cost billions to develope, and GM doesn't have the money right now. They just need to focus on the cars at hand, not go off and make new ones.

first of all, did you poll them all? no, thought so.
who cares what young males want. they dont have the money to buy a new car in most cases anyway. or they cant afford the insurance.
theres a craze thats catching on, you might have heard of it, its called drifting. the preferred drive system is RWD. look at prices of 240SXs and AE86 corollas lately if you havent bothered. those young males you think want a FWD car, might want a RWD given a nice enough, common enough, and inexpensive enough platform.

Did I? No. Did GM? Yes.

the avg 40 year old would rather know that thier car has all those electrical assistive systems than know that its FWD vs RWD. even if they dont konw how they work, theyll be happy if they are told about them and know theyre there.
so again i see that youre the all knowing, and everyone who differs in opinion is "thick headed." do you really think you are the only person who keeps up with whats going on in the auto industry.
do you think you are the only one here who has worked for a manufacturer?
do you think you are the only one here who has a brain?
i suggest you tone down your rhetoric, because youre not. you arent the only one keeping up with industry goings on, or teh only one employed by a manufacturer or the only one with a brain. take your condescending attitude and stick where you **** from. your OPINION is not fact! get over yourself.

First off it's not opinion, opinion would be me saying GM doesn't need a RWD car...I'm saying GM can't afford to develope a RWD car. It's called logic, and you know, I know, the whole world knows GM doesn't have a bunch of money laying around.

Second off, I'm the only person on these boards who has actually worked for General Motors. Do you see me saying anything about Ford? No, because I couldn't begin to tell you anything about Ford.

I suggest you look up GM's financial status and tell me if they have the money to build a new car right now. If you think they can they I would honestly say you need to stay out of the market.

are you implying that people who are environmentally conscious are "tools?"

It's called a joke, that's why they make the lol smiley...but yes I do in fact think people who drive hybrids are tools (that's an opinion) because they really aren't as good as they are made out to be (another opinion).

 

[mwoodski]

Hah, GM doesnt need to Develop a RWD sedan, they already have one, it's called the Holden Commodore

 

[Joey D]

Hah, GM doesnt need to Develop a RWD sedan, they already have one, it's called the Holden Commodore

True, you proved me wrong and honestly there really is no reason they can't sell that over in the States.

 

[neanderthal]

blah blah blah
I suggest you look up GM's financial status and tell me if they have the money to build a new car right now. If you think they can they I would honestly say you need to stay out of the market.
blah blah blah

well enough, but VW was where GM is right not about ten years ago, they were bleeding money and turned it around by using luxury car interiors in common market cars. never mind that thier reliability was crap for a long long time (until recently for that matter)but that gimmick, that hook, of having that interior, that got them out the hole.
yes i know they had an aging lineup and so on and so on, but it wasnt the newness of the cars that sold the public.

nissan was also in the same boat about 5 years ago, bleeding money out the ass. what did they do; they injected performace into thier lineup, came firing on all cylinders, reduced platforms, cut costs, closed factories (pretty much taboo in japan!) and look where they are right now. they're pretty much minting money right now. altima sales are through the roof compared to the non competitive model that preceeded it, the Z was reintroduced, along with its stabble mates the G35, FX34/ 45.

whats GM doing? more of the same. cadillac is good, hummer was donig ok until they got hammmered by fuel prices, saabs in teh toilet, dont even mention buick and pontiac and saturn. all more of the same, bland, inoffensive, stuff that doesnt move the public,

GM needs a homerun. pity they seem to want to bunt.

 

[Joey D]

whats GM doing? more of the same. cadillac is good, hummer was donig ok until they got hammmered by fuel prices, saabs in teh toilet, dont even mention buick and pontiac and saturn. all more of the same, bland, inoffensive, stuff that doesnt move the public,

Buick isn't doing bad, the LaCrosse is an awesome car and so is the Lucuren is a great car too. The only bad buick I can think of is that crappy mini van.

Ponitac isn't doing bad, the Soltice is selling with stellar numbers. The G6 is also fairly well. Granted the GTO isn't doing the, but the new 2006 will be better. The Torrent is decent, not crappy, nor stellar. The mini van however sucks.

Saturn is doing good, I don't know where you've been looking. The only crappy Saturn is the mini van.

The homerun for GM is the GMT900's, everyone has been saying that.

 

[Raghavan]

Buick isn't doing bad, the LaCrosse is an awesome car and so is the Lucuren is a great car too. The only bad buick I can think of is that crappy mini van.

Ponitac isn't doing bad, the Soltice is selling with stellar numbers. The G6 is also fairly well. Granted the GTO isn't doing the, but the new 2006 will be better. The Torrent is decent, not crappy, nor stellar. The mini van however sucks.

Saturn is doing good, I don't know where you've been looking. The only crappy Saturn is the mini van.

The homerun for GM is the GMT900's, everyone has been saying that.

Right, stellar for a roadster.
Nissan, VW, and other automakers were in dumps like GM, but they didn't sit on their ass churning out bland cars. they actually changed and made awesome, fun to drive, and luxurious cars. GM's interiors and luxury has improved dramatically, and i think it's time they develop more fun, RWD cars, except for Saab, because of their tradition.

 

[YSSMAN]

GM's biggest problem is that they dont necessirily persue innovation unless suprred by the market to do so... But it isnt a bad idea either.

Letting Ford and DCX go through all the trouble playing with RWD sedans, AWD Crossovers, and Full-Size SUVs lets GM analise what is going on, and then decide what exactly they are going to do against it.

Buick is a brand that has somewhat of an identity crisis. While they do know that they are targeting primarily the 60+ crowd, they dont have any vehicles to draw in entry-level lux buyers. The LaCrosse is a good example of a car that knows what it is going to be sold to, and older folks have taken to it. Although both the LaCrosse and Lucerne havent been the major hits that the company needs, they maintain the marketshare held by the Century/Regal/LeSabre and Park Avenue.

Saturn is in the middle of a complete model shuffle. Baisicly they are going to become the American cousin to the British Vauxhalls and German Opels. The new Aura is baisicly the new Vauxhall Vectra, and will come with a stong list of standard and optional equipment espically when compared to the Acuras that they will be competing against. Other than that, styling is a bit of an issue for the Vue... But and upcomming Hybrid model will boost sales... Sadly, their Van sucks, but it is much better than it's Buick and Pontiac siblings.

Speaking of Pontiac, they are the brand that carries the most ammount of promise. Finially they are becoming more than rebadged Chevrolets, a little more hard edged and exciting than before. The G6 is selling pretty well, and the press has accepted it as a value-priced compeditor to the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry. The Solstice is Pontiac's saving grace, and with sales as high as they are right now, it is undoubtedly the biggest success they have had since the '93 Firebirds...

Chevrolet just keeps chugging along. Although none of their models are necessiarily the best in their class (besides the Corvette), the GMT900 Tahoe has a lot to live up to and it is looking as though it will do so. The HHR is selling acceptionally well, and production is to be increased by 60,000 units for 2006... The Malibu has allready been called better than the Camry, and the Cobalt is one of the best compact cars available in the US. Neither of the two are the best in their class, but they are damn good... And thats all that matters.

Saab, well, theyre just Saab. Saabophiles are going to buy those cars and SUVs come hell and highwater, and there is nothing we can do about it. Sure, GM has sucked some of the Sweedish quirkyness out of the car, but they are still better than their Volvo rivals.

Hummer is a brand that is looking to maintain marketshare despite rising gas prices. Of course H2 sales are falling faster than Rosie O'Donnel after tripping on her children, but the H3 remains to be a pretty strong seller despite sub-par reviews... They need a sub-H3 model, fast... This would be a good time for GM to build a Wrangler compeditor...

And then there is Cadillac, the guiding light at GM. The CTS continues to be a good offering at the price, and as C/D had said before, "Every model gets better and better, and we cant wait to test the next variant." The STS has proven itself to be a mid-pack compeditor in standard form, and when equipped with the V8 and the sport suspension, it can chase down 550ils and E500s all day long. The SRX won 5-best Sport-Lux SUV of the year, again... The XLR retains it's position in the market as the American SL500... The new Escalade GMT900s are going to kick ass... If there has been a dissapointment, it was the Cadillac DTS...

are you implying that people who are environmentally conscious are "tools?"

I was implying that, sure. They gave into the notion that these cars are going to save the world when indeed all they do is comfort you into knowing, "Hey, I coulda saved $8000 and bought a Corolla, but I wanted so show how cool I am to all the neighbors by going to the gas station once every two weeks instead of every week and a half..."

The simple fact of the matter is that the difference in price between a hybrid vehicle and your standard compact car is not negated by fuel prices. You would have to drive your Prius 60,000 a year for 6 years to equal out the cost of a similarly equipped Corolla.

Even then, 99.9% of the people who own these hybrids are getting fuel mileage that isnt much better than that of a regular gas or diesel car... Why? because they dont adjust their driving habits to make full use of the hybrid technology in the vehicle.

...Has anyone even talked about the negitives to owning a Prius? Not many... Brock Yates has written about the negitives of the car countless times, and yet no one in the mainstream media will do so...

So what happens to all of the batteries when they die? Who pays for the replacement and how much will it cost the consumer? Most estimates point to the neighborhood of $4000, and after that, where do the batteries go? They are baisicly toxic waste containers... Its not like they can sit outside the dealership and wait for the half-life to be up...

Youve herd of the computer-crashes in the Prius, right? You know the ones where the car completely shuts off for no apparent reason... Many of the times where I have herd it happened were in low-speed parking lots after start up, or some gentle cruises where the car completely gives up... What happens when the car does the same thing at 70MPH on the freeway?

Even then, some fire departments refuse to rescue people trapped in car fires with Hybrids... Most of the fears come from electricution or acid burns, but even then, no one is exactly sure what happens when a hybrid baisicly "blows up..."

So you know what, I would much rather be the guy in the 300C laying the 20ft patch at the corner of 28th and Patterson... Burn em while you got em I say, anything to give that liberal-hippie douch in the right lane the middle finger...

 

[Raghavan]

The Malibu is better than the Camry because the Camry is ageing and the new model is going to be out in a bit.

 

[YSSMAN]

...I think the biggest reason why the Malibu got so many "better than Camry" labels is because it does exactly what the Camry does for a couple grand less. And when you start comparing the Malibu SS to the Camry SE V6, its still pretty easy to see the Chevrolet is much better suited to "sporty" driving, and still offers a lot for the money...

 

[VIPFREAK]

It's kinda funny that Saturn and the V-series of Caddi seems like the only cars that have any kind of chance.

 

[Zardoz]

...So you know what, I would much rather be the guy in the 300C laying the 20ft patch at the corner of 28th and Patterson... Burn em while you got em I say...

In ten or fifteen years, you are really going to hate the little bit of driving you'll be able to do...

 

[Wolfe]

I was implying that, sure. They gave into the notion that these cars are going to save the world when indeed all they do is comfort you into knowing, "Hey, I coulda saved $8000 and bought a Corolla, but I wanted so show how cool I am to all the neighbors by going to the gas station once every two weeks instead of every week and a half..."

The simple fact of the matter is that the difference in price between a hybrid vehicle and your standard compact car is not negated by fuel prices. You would have to drive your Prius 60,000 a year for 6 years to equal out the cost of a similarly equipped Corolla.

Even then, 99.9% of the people who own these hybrids are getting fuel mileage that isnt much better than that of a regular gas or diesel car... Why? because they dont adjust their driving habits to make full use of the hybrid technology in the vehicle.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Anyone who thinks that the #1 reason for developing hybrids is to save people money at the gas pump is a douche bag.

...Has anyone even talked about the negitives to owning a Prius? Not many... Brock Yates has written about the negitives of the car countless times, and yet no one in the mainstream media will do so...

So what happens to all of the batteries when they die? Who pays for the replacement and how much will it cost the consumer? Most estimates point to the neighborhood of $4000, and after that, where do the batteries go? They are baisicly toxic waste containers... Its not like they can sit outside the dealership and wait for the half-life to be up...

Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Hybrid-related components, including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter, are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Owner’s Warranty Information booklet for details.

As for where they will go, where have you been? Recycling facilities for batteries have existed for years.

Youve herd of the computer-crashes in the Prius, right? You know the ones where the car completely shuts off for no apparent reason... Many of the times where I have herd it happened were in low-speed parking lots after start up, or some gentle cruises where the car completely gives up... What happens when the car does the same thing at 70MPH on the freeway?

What happens when an electronically-controlled throttle pedal malfunctions? What about an electronically-controlled brake pedal or steering wheel? Computers are everywhere in the automotive world.

Even then, some fire departments refuse to rescue people trapped in car fires with Hybrids... Most of the fears come from electricution or acid burns, but even then, no one is exactly sure what happens when a hybrid baisicly "blows up..."

Toyota, Honda, etc. have been educating firefighters, EMTs and wrecker operators on how to deal with hybrids, and systems have been designed into hybrid cars to cut off all high-voltage circuits if a crash or abnormal situation is detected.

Gas tanks are dangerous, and so is the hydrogen in a hydrogen-powered car, as well as the high-voltage equipment in fuel-cell cars.

So you know what, I would much rather be the guy in the 300C laying the 20ft patch at the corner of 28th and Patterson... Burn em while you got em I say, anything to give that liberal-hippie douch in the right lane the middle finger...

You are such a Michigan resident...

 

[Appie]

 

[Tornado]

GM's biggest problem is that they dont necessirily persue innovation unless suprred by the market to do so... But it isnt a bad idea either.

That is true. That is what Toyota has been doing for 15 years.

Letting Ford and DCX go through all the trouble playing with RWD sedans, AWD Crossovers, and Full-Size SUVs lets GM analise what is going on, and then decide what exactly they are going to do against it.

The problem is though, is that Ford is not doing anything innovative, and DCX has a far easier job making RWD sedans.

Saturn is in the middle of a complete model shuffle. Baisicly they are going to become the American cousin to the British Vauxhalls and German Opels. The new Aura is baisicly the new Vauxhall Vectra, and will come with a stong list of standard and optional equipment espically when compared to the Acuras that they will be competing against. Other than that, styling is a bit of an issue for the Vue... But and upcomming Hybrid model will boost sales... Sadly, their Van sucks, but it is much better than it's Buick and Pontiac siblings.

But the problem is, Saturn is completely worthless, and they have been for 5 years. Makning them rebadged, ugly Opels instead of the rebadged, uglyChevrolet's they are now isn't ikely to change that much.

Speaking of Pontiac, they are the brand that carries the most ammount of promise. Finially they are becoming more than rebadged Chevrolets, a little more hard edged and exciting than before. The G6 is selling pretty well, and the press has accepted it as a value-priced compeditor to the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry. The Solstice is Pontiac's saving grace, and with sales as high as they are right now, it is undoubtedly the biggest success they have had since the '93 Firebirds...

But you cannot float a company as large as Pontiac on one model. Pontiac is not Porsche. Their sporty, upmarket image is blocked by the fact that all of their models are rebadged versions of other vehicles, ranging from Holden to Chevy to OIdsmobiles with veryu slightly more powerful engines.

The Malibu has allready been called better than the Camry, and the Cobalt is one of the best compact cars available in the US. Neither of the two are the best in their class, but they are damn good... And thats all that matters.

The problem is, though, that the current Camry dates to roughly 2001, and is n the process of being replaced. I agree the rebadged Opel that the Malibu is is nicer than the Camry now, but what about when the new Camry comes out? In addition,the Cobalt has the worry of the brand new Civic to be scared of, which, ugly or not, is a brilliant car.

Saab, well, theyre just Saab. Saabophiles are going to buy those cars and SUVs come hell and highwater, and there is nothing we can do about it. Sure, GM has sucked some of the Sweedish quirkyness out of the car, but they are still better than their Volvo rivals.

But the problem is, though, that despite completely globalizing the company, Saab still continues to lose money hand-over-fist, if only because only Saabphiles buy them, while Ford only has to let Volvo go and it makes money by themselves, for both themselves and the other Ford companies.

Hummer is a brand that is looking to maintain marketshare despite rising gas prices. Of course H2 sales are falling faster than Rosie O'Donnel after tripping on her children, but the H3 remains to be a pretty strong seller despite sub-par reviews... They need a sub-H3 model, fast... This would be a good time for GM to build a Wrangler compeditor...

They can't, because they have nothing to build it on that would be suitable. And it's only a matter of time before sales of the H3 tank.

And then there is Cadillac, the guiding light at GM. The CTS continues to be a good offering at the price, and as C/D had said before, "Every model gets better and better, and we cant wait to test the next variant." The STS has proven itself to be a mid-pack compeditor in standard form, and when equipped with the V8 and the sport suspension, it can chase down 550ils and E500s all day long. The SRX won 5-best Sport-Lux SUV of the year, again... The XLR retains it's position in the market as the American SL500... The new Escalade GMT900s are going to kick ass... If there has been a dissapointment, it was the Cadillac DTS...

But GM needs to proliferate the advancements made by Cadillac throughout GM. And I'm not just talking the Corvette.

The simple fact of the matter is that the difference in price between a hybrid vehicle and your standard compact car is not negated by fuel prices. You would have to drive your Prius 60,000 a year for 6 years to equal out the cost of a similarly equipped Corolla.

That is true on multiple levels. Not only can you buy a Camry and have more fuel costs and less mechanical costs, you could buy a diesel Jetta and have equal fuel costs and less mechanical costs. The technology is simply not there yet to warrant it in anything that isn't an SUV.

Even then, 99.9% of the people who own these hybrids are getting fuel mileage that isnt much better than that of a regular gas or diesel car... Why? because they dont adjust their driving habits to make full use of the hybrid technology in the vehicle.

Yeah, but the problem is that morons who buy them as a miracle gas price fixer only look at EPA ratings. The EPA drives cars far too differently for that to even matter for the Prius in particular, due to it's transmission, and hybrids in general.

...Has anyone even talked about the negitives to owning a Prius? Not many... Brock Yates has written about the negitives of the car countless times, and yet no one in the mainstream media will do so...

That's because the mainstream media has flocked to the car like a pimp to an Eldorado, which is exactly what Honda, Ford and Toyota (and even GM, with there half assed attempt at it last year) were hoping for.

Youve herd of the computer-crashes in the Prius, right? You know the ones where the car completely shuts off for no apparent reason... Many of the times where I have herd it happened were in low-speed parking lots after start up, or some gentle cruises where the car completely gives up... What happens when the car does the same thing at 70MPH on the freeway?

Actually, I think that has to do with the low speeds screwing up the tranny. It doesn't happen on the Honda Insight, which has multiple gears. Again, the tech. just isn't there yet.

 

[skip0110]

The homerun for GM is the GMT900's, everyone has been saying that.

Everyone is saying that GM needs the GMT900 so be a home run. Time will tell if the market likes it. Lutz has reasonable expectations (he realizes that the SUV market will sto growing soon or already has) but the Durango and Explorer are solid competitiors, and I think it is unlikely that Highlander/Lexus RX/Pilot owners are going to enjoy a full-frame SUV, no matter how civilized it is.

Funny thing, if GM designed every car from the start to be a home run, they could withstand a bunt more often...

 

[Joey D]

Granted GM doesn't design all cars to be big hits, but like I've said many times...they have been coming out with some lately.

 

[Raghavan]

I think the GMT900's will flop heavily.

 

[Joey D]

I think the GMT900's will flop heavily.

Why? Just about every magazine has said the Tahoe is one of the best SUV's ever made.

 

[McLaren]

I have a feeling GMC will continue to rely on their commercial vehicles more than their "pedestrian" vehicles, imo as I see probably 6 of their commercial vehicles for every 1 "Ped" truck.

 

[skip0110]

Granted GM doesn't design all cars to be big hits, but like I've said many times...they have been coming out with some lately.

Interiors have improved, and the newer designs are getting more up-to-date, but they still aren't innovating. The G6, for example, is a competent car but doesn't shatter any expectations. Much better than a few years ago--squint a little, and an Impala or Malibu looks like it might have been designed in 1994.

Why? Just about every magazine has said the Tahoe is one of the best SUV's ever made.

I've heard good things, but I'd need to reserve judgement until I see how it stacks up in a comparo.

 

[Joey D]

I've heard good things, but I'd need to reserve judgement until I see how it stacks up in a comparo.

I'm curious myself since the closest I've been to one was a test mule for the Tahoe. I'll be test driving one in the near future.

 

[YSSMAN]

Motor Trend had a comparo between the new Tahoe LTZ and the Expedition King-Ranch eddition... The Tahoe won, rather handily. The updated frame, suspension, powertrain, and looks make it a much better option to the Ford. The only complaints were about a cramped third row and somewhat strange egronomics in the drivers position, and a somewhat awkward feeling when driving.

 

[Wolfe]

I still think GM is betting too much of their future on the GMT900's. Regardless of the fact that big trucks are their forte (and according to the Motor Trend article YSSMAN is talking about, the GMT900's are quite impressive), it's a shrinking market segment.