Yamauchi at DICE 2011: Gran Turismo to invoke mimesis creating Existance

[manhorsedog]

It's called class and style, let's face it most of the world lacks both of these things. People bash the intro people bash the lounge music people ect ect ect.

I think if you showed this game to somebody that doesn't listen to the radio or buy in to every new pop culture fad then opinions would be different.

And please literal Lisa stay away.

 

[Exorcet]

people ect ect ect.

Who's people? Not everyone cares about those things you mentioned. I myself essentially just want physics and a good online mode.

I think everyone else in this thread just wants the racing part of GT, which is its core (?), to be the focus. I don't see how PD moving the focus to mimesis makes sense when the main part of GT isn't even complete.

The whole amazing experience thing should be in any game already as others have said. Seeing Kazunori talk about it like this means it's either marketing hype or his games just lack soul.

 

[Devedander]

 

[Destinkeys]

Kaz is smoking something. I never heard a grown man talk like that that WASN'T smoking something..!

And B-Spec DEFINITELY makes me think about death... his! Seppuku is still an honored tradition in Japan, Kaz-san...

🤬

 

[manhorsedog]

That's great I think I racing is perfect for you. Other people however including the person that makes this game appreciate style and class along with those other things. Thinking outside of the box and trying to have a fun and different experience.

As people get older they change, artist, musicians, businesses, ect all change over time and if they don't they are not growing and should just quit because that's BORING

 

[Buick Special62]

i think what hes trying to do i create limits for drivers. in the game you can push the driver beyond its limits, in real life a driver might be too scared to drive that hard aka coming to terms with death

 

[Jacob6875]

Maybe if they decided to add realistic damage people would "fear death" in his video game.

 

[budious]

i think what hes trying to do i create limits for drivers. in the game you can push the driver beyond its limits, in real life a driver might be too scared to drive that hard aka coming to terms with death

Something tells my gut that Sony PR is gonna have a problem with a bloody Bob half emerged from a windshield.

 

[tibiquera]

Well, I can't believe how people got the concept so wrong on his presentation. So let me start:

He's not talking particularly about GT5 itself. Remember that DICE stands for Design Innovate Communicate Entertain. It's an event geared towards developers, not the public. Go ahead and read any of the other presentations there. You'll see developers sharing their experience and knowledge with other developers. He's not doing a sales pitch for his products. And it's quite fascinating finding what developers have to say about the state of the gaming industry, where it's heading for, and their advise to other developers. Therefore, when Kaz talks about mimesis and the idea of creating a game based on life/death cycle, that's something about his creative vision.

Now talking about vision, some people have been saying "just gimme a better simulation". You fail to understand that what created Gran Turismo, and the whole simulation genre, was the creative vision of Kaz. If he had the goal to just improve things, he would just do Motor Toon games. It was thinking outside the box, having a creative vision, perseverance, and the ability to make it possible, what really created GT. So the notion that he'll just improve things will not happen, because he's a visionary. Now you could complain about the execution, but I don't think anybody would complain about Kaz's creativity. So let the man express his vision.

And finally, he didn't force you to buy the game, and he didn't prohibit you from making your own game. You made the decision to buy this game, so man up and respond for your actions! You may think this game sucks, well other think it's wonderful. And I for one truly hope the next iterations of the game will continue to take risks and be a reflection of his dreams, rather than a money grabber like others.

 

[JJ72]

Now talking about vision, some people have been saying "just gimme a better simulation". You fail to understand that what created Gran Turismo, and the whole simulation genre, was the creative vision of Kaz. If he had the goal to just improve things, he would just do Motor Toon games. It was thinking outside the box, having a creative vision, perseverance, and the ability to make it possible, what really created GT. So the notion that he'll just improve things will not happen, because he's a visionary. Now you could complain about the execution, but I don't think anybody would complain about Kaz's creativity. So let the man express his vision.

Kaz and GT didn't created the whole simulation genre.....it's Indy 500, Papyrus Indy car racing II, Viper Racing, Grand Prix Legends etc etc.

I really didn't get what's so special about the first GT, to me, even at the time as a little kid, it's a racing game which you have to buy what you drive, and has more content than other games.

GT2 was a great game for me because it was a fun racing game, with good controls and lots of cars, but from a game design point of view, it did nothing out of the box.

So I really don't get where is his creativity and vision, especially since the concept of Grand turismo has not changed for more than a decade? He is one game designer who has only done one franchise in his whole career and they are all racing games.

 

[JJ72]

As people get older they change, artist, musicians, businesses, ect all change over time and if they don't they are not growing and should just quit because that's BORING

GT as a series should quit then, because it is not growing and is really boring.

 

[CeeJay]

take risks? What risks has Gran Turismo ever taken? It's a great game series for sure but risks? The trouble is putting this lofty philosophical talk up next to a decent but somewhat flawed driving game.

 

[manhorsedog]

TO YOU it's not growing, to other people it has grown a lot! I think this game has made huge steps but like I said before some people just don't see it and what te really want is iracing. I understand what he is doing and love it, the class the stlye, the realism.......to each his own I guess.

 

[substructure]

KY you crazy bastard! i want to play a racing sim - i don't want to play some weird ass neon genesis/b-spec car collecting simulator thing... that sounds terrible.

i am open to the idea of a racing rpg though... does that make me strange?

 

[Devedander]

i am open to the idea of a racing rpg though... does that make me strange?

No it makes you a fan of GT4

 

[CarreraGT]

Gran Turismo to invoke mimesis creating Existance... Haha, what a load of bs. KY really has lost the plot. We are talking about a video game here right?

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, I can't believe how people got the concept so wrong on his presentation.

You're exactly right. There are simply too many blind, unthinking people in this world who are much better at complaining and whining and for that matter, rioting, than thinking and communicating, and seeing big pictures.

TL;DR Version: this has little to do with Gran Turismo, but everything to do with a wide variety of games, and these are the people Kazunori is addressing. And if you're using this as an opportunity to bash GT once more, this isn't the point of the thread, and you're wrong to even be in here. For the thinking people, read on.

Just set aside the whole argument of whether or not GT5 is enjoyable, or should even have been released. What Kaz is talking about to the developers of the world is what I've been wanting to see in gaming for about 20 years. It most directly applies to adventure games and RPGs. Games like WoW, which... sorry WoWers, I just don't get the huge addiction to this game you guys have, and this game in particular. I do have my own MMO I love, Anarchy Online, so I do see the perspective you guys have. But when I see these epic teaser trailers for every new update and expansion, or the slick YouTube vids, I think, "Yes, it should be like this, but it's not." I don't get the sense that I'm fighting monsters who are alive and thinking, and getting increasingly worried as a team is tearing them a new one. I sort of do in Anarchy, though I think mostly my addiction to it is because of the superb soundtrack it has. But at the same time, I'm not that addicted to it because I haven't played my characters for months.

I do get this sense much more in Metal Gear Solid 4 and Killzone 2. I even get it in the original Ratchet & Clank game from 2001. I suppose I should throw in Halo, but I'm just not into XBox games, sorry, thus no experience. But in these two games which I have played, I do get the sense that I'm surrounded by people. The opening scene in MGS4 in particular had my skin crawling. These are both heavily cinema driven games, as is the whole Ratchet & Clank series. They give you a sense of involvement with people, you learn to care for them, if you have any sense, and you work a little harder to keep them alive because of this, hopefully. In the case of MGS and R&C, because they are both series, you hopefully build up a rapport with the characters and get to know them, feel a connection to them, like with a movie or TV series, James Bond or 24 or House.

I don't know about you, but I hate to get my characters killed.

Suppose in these MMORPGs, if your character died, you had to start a new one. Yes, the games would have to change for this. The ridiculous chore of building your characters would have to ease a bit, but also the ceiling of power would have to be raised. Or perhaps the rise to power would have to be more gradual. Either way, it would require some heavy thinking on the part of the developers.

But this is just what Kaz is asking for. It's what I've been asking for. For games that aren't just more involving, but more alive.

It does seem that Kaz was tinkering with ideas along these lines, somehow, and trying to incorporate these into GT5. Okay, whiners, you have a point with this. I'm not sure how it could figure in. Obviously, even after they interfered and made demands on Polyphony, SONY brought the hammer down and had them release GT in this cobbled together form. Heck, most of us demanded it too, so don't act so stunned or like we had nothing to do with it. We did. If most of us were like, "Yeah, take your time while we play LittleBigPlanet 2 or Home," I'm sure GT5 would have had a different form. It might not make any more sense, and there would have only been a few more Premium cars, but it surely would be less clunky and feel more complete. The epic online playground Kaz enthused about might be good to go.

I'm not sure how these concepts could apply to GT, other than having bots which behave more realistically. I'm puzzled over how Gran Turismo could evolve, even though a small group here has been asking for this. Other than taking bits from Forza, such as the Livery Editor and Storefront which I'd love to see, perhaps actual drift and touge events which frankly I disdain, no one has anything else to offer. I do have a concept for Gran Turismo Vision which I posted way back in 2005. It's very ambitious, and honestly, I think only Kazunori could pull it off. I think if anyone can truly evolve the racing genre, only Kaz can do it. I should find those posts and polish them up.

And I'll leave with this point: Gran Turismo is the evolution of racing. If there was anything else out there like it, we would have bought it in the millions while we waited for GT5. That game just doesn't exist. Otherwise, the complainers would have fled to it by now, and the noise level would have dropped considerably.

 

[Exorcet]

That's great I think I racing is perfect for you. Other people however including the person that makes this game appreciate style and class along with those other things. Thinking outside of the box and trying to have a fun and different experience.

Like I said before, being different comes second to being good. Uniqueness does not lead to being good, even though trying to achieve greatness may lead to being unique. Either way, being unique should never be a primary goal.

I myself love the concept of iRacing, but GT is a very good fit as well. Kazunori constantly calls it a simulator, so why should I not encourage him to make it live up to its name? If he wants to sell it to me, I can tell him what I want. He has every right to go after his dreams, but giving me what I want GT doesn't create a conflict with what he wants. It probably only helps.

As people get older they change, artist, musicians, businesses, ect all change over time and if they don't they are not growing and should just quit because that's BORING

Change is something that many have asked for, but PD has not given.

No credits
Better online
Better AI
Livery Editor
Better tuning

I'd consider GT very, very boring by your standards because it hasn't changed since GT1 really. The good news is that does not keep it from being good or even excellent. What keeps GT from being excellent is PD not sitting down and refining it.

this has little to do with Gran Turismo, but everything to do with a wide variety of games

GT was all over the first post, and in one Kaz's quotes right next to mimesis. Unless maybe you were saying that your post does not have to do with GT?

I do get this sense much more in Metal Gear Solid 4 and Killzone 2.

It's an opinion thing, but for me nothing beats or even comes close to the experience of multiplayer. Racing online with good drivers in long well organized races is at a level far beyond the most tense moment I felt in MGS4, which I can't even remember to be honest. It feels like racing, real racing, and I'm guessing that that's something the whole mimesis thing is about. But really, I don't think that focusing on it explicitly is going to do any good. A great experience will naturally rise out of a good game. This is what GT online has told me despite the horror of A-Spec, and it's what my flight simming has told me.

I see Kazunori's speech as something akin to the shaky screen in NFS Shift. It might have sounded cool, and it was different, but it was a nuisance more than anything.

And I'll leave with this point: Gran Turismo is the evolution of racing. If there was anything else out there like it, we would have bought it in the millions while we waited for GT5. That game just doesn't exist. Otherwise, the complainers would have fled to it by now, and the noise level would have dropped considerably.

The way I see it, GT1 was an evolution for consoles, but after that PD became content and didn't bother to really try anymore. Try as in push things to be as good as possible. Instead, the focus strayed more and more to just maintaining their position.

 

[Tenacious D]

Since most of your post is a list of 'druthers, I'll hit on this.

The way I see it, GT1 was an evolution for consoles, but after that PD became content and didn't bother to really try anymore. Try as in push things to be as good as possible. Instead, the focus strayed more and more to just maintaining their position.

Racing evolution by definition is going to be very thin. How far are you going to stray from the model of real life?

Toca Race Driver included something of a story mode and a haphazard, eclectic variety of pro racing.

Forza adds the livery editor, Auction House and user Storefront to a blatant Gran Turismo core. They toyed with Drivatar training in one game.

Test Drive Unlimited gave us a Hawaiian island to tear up and police chases from NFS.

Need For Speed... yuck, I don't even want to discuss them, or Grid. Dirt is an okay Rally game, but you have to really love Rally solely to get into it.

So the only game which I can think of as comparable is Forza. Most of us don't find it as satisfying, or as well built, or even as polished. So, the big evolution for Forza is the ability to paint cars to a crazy extent, and offer a well thought out shop system. I do agree that these are great inclusions, and I love them, and if F3 wasn't so broken, I'd still be racing it alongside GT5. It remains to be seen if F4 will finally have the bug-free polish of a proper video game.

I don't consider Grid, TDU or NFS - other than the lame Shift - to be real racers. So, the "evolution" in racing games has pretty much ended, no matter what game you'd want to mention.

 

[Luminis]

So, the "evolution" in racing games has pretty much ended, no matter what game you'd want to mention.

I actually doubt that. Even if a whole of features have been brought to the table and most of what probably could have been done has been done, but there's one thing missing:
A game to unitte all (or at least most) of the better feature into one game.

Each racing title so far had its bullet points, its strengths and weaknesses and, to my mind, evolution would be to unite those strengths.
What I, personally, think has ended, is the revolution of the racing genre, at least without giving up up on the simulation sub genre.

So far, it's alweays a trade off between different games. Go from Forza to GT, and you're getting better physics, but lose the better cusomization. Go from GT to iRacing and you're getting a better overall simulation, but you're loosing the pick-up-and-play-ability... You get the idea. As long as this remains evident in the sim racing genre, there's plenty of evolution to be done, in my opinion.

 

[Exorcet]

Racing evolution by definition is going to be very thin. How far are you going to stray from the model of real life?

We don't even have a model of real life. No console game can, as in has the realistic ability to, simulate real physics. There is a lot of room to expand physics as computing power goes up. However, GT doesn't even reach the limits of current technology. Tire grip is a constant that depends on the tire alone for the most part. That's kind of silly.

In terms of racing, we have a very basic damage system that leans to visual more than anything else - though I do finally appreciate the appearance of mechanical damage. We don't have any advanced race rules (flags, multi class racing, tuning restrictions, etc). Fuel is set at one value no matter the car, proper qualification is not in the game and completely absent from A-Spec. Some tuning options present from GT1 are missing, and some rather ridiculous setting conventions have never been rectified (What does "60" mean when you set the rear wing?). There is plenty for GT to improve.

And beyond just fixing issues, there's room to innovate. I'd love to design a rear wing or undertray for my car instead of just building it. It would be great to have two sides to race rules:

Entry rules - for pre-built cars

Build rules - for cars built/modified by race teams

The latter would include things like maximum surface area and position relative to the body for the wing I would design, etc. I don't think anyone has done this, or even mentioned something like it.

It's a bit extreme yes, but the next step down, like multi level tuning, is completely possible. Right now, tuning in GT is just a multiplyer. You can't really change what a car is. Nothing will make a Viper ACR a GT1 racer (well, except RM, but that is on just 15 cars, and it only takes them to one specific class of race car).

I'm personally not interested in the following, but GT also does not have:
-sponsors
-team budget
-racing seasons (a championship is just a bunch of races, GT ignores what happens in between)
-multiple cars/race team [OK, I'm interested in this one]

There is so much not present in the simple driving games currently available. I agree that GT does lead overall, but it still has much room to expand. GT6 could be something ground breaking. There is that much left untapped by racers, especially the ones on consoles.

 

[Destinkeys]

Kaz is smoking something...

It just beggars the imagination how he can spout this new-age doubletalk at a conference, but so COMPLETELY forget about the very sport his game is supposed to be 'mimesis-ing'. GT5 completely takes place on race tracks. All you 'driving' guys, get over it. It's a RACING game.

A really BAD one.

I would just like to have seen the looks on the faces of the other developers at that conference, listening to Kaz spout this psycho-babble, while probably all too well aware of just how BAD GT5's reception has become, compared to his last major effort. If I were there as a game developer, I would probably think to myself 'Just do everything totally opposite to this guy, and I'll probably be OK!'

 

[Devedander]

What I, personally, think has ended, is the revolution of the racing genre, at least without giving up up on the simulation sub genre.

I don't know about that... it kind of depends on how you look at it and where you give credit for changes, but I think with 3D technology and motion simulation out there yet untapped we still have a few major steps to make... that on top of better interaction and flag/penalty systems...

But I definitely agree... even amongst what's out there right now, even limiting to sub categories of sims, no one has really pulled together the majority of great ideas into one game yet...

All said and done though, I agree: Kaz is smoking something.

 

[brainfade]

GT5 doesn't invoke mimesis, its invokes dropping sales for GT6 to be bluntly honest

 

[Blackbird190]

My take on implementing mimesis:

1)You hit a wall at 150mph, you die. Game over, back to level 0.

2)Could possibly break the game up into eras?
Imagine you start your career in the 1940's... and progress into present day. You would be timeless yourself, but the cars would come and go. This would implement mimesis into the the life and death of a particular vehicle/era.

Otherwise, I haven't a clue.

 

[sk0pe]

GT5 doesn't invoke mimesis, its invokes dropping sales for GT6 to be bluntly honest

Play it in 3D with surround sound, cockpit view, Nurburgring with day/night cycle on and tell me that doesn't take your breath away.
The 3D really is 🤬 stunning , once you adjust the FOV,parallax settings etc omg does the game come to life.
When he said this stuff he would have said it assuming the person play would be eventually playing with
1. A steering wheel.
2. A 3D HDtv.
3. Surround Sound.

Anyone else who actually has all three of these components and play's GT5 would find it a great struggle to say it doesn't invoke some kind of 'mimesis' upon you..
I only have 1080p tv, but when i take my PS3 etc to my friend's and play it in 3D with 7.1 surround sound i sometime's think i should have brought another change of pants it is that good

But people play on a SD or normal HDtv with a DS3 using their tv speakers and then wonder why they don't get this sensation he is talking about.

 

[brainfade]

2)Could possibly break the game up into eras?
Imagine you start your career in the 1940's... and progress into present day. You would be timeless yourself, but the cars would come and go. This would implement mimesis into the the life and death of a particular vehicle/era.

This would be good if done in the right way, but if the cars that Polyphony prioritises for Premiums and the cars they left out is anything to go by, they'll completely balls it up.

 

[Blackbird190]

This would be good if done in the right way, but if the cars that Polyphony prioritises for Premiums and the cars they left out is anything to go by, they'll completely balls it up.

Agreed, but it would be an awesome experience could it be pulled off. Something of this magnitude would take them years due to the vastness of our racing history. There is so much to choose from.

 

[The Outlaw]

Yawn...typical, big bag of wind speech from Kaz IMO. I can't say reading this type of stuff does anything to help ease my frustrations toward PD & the GT franchise (considering how unfinished/issue plauged GT5 is)

 

[JJ72]

I would like to see some sort of racing RPG though, imagine a racing game like Mass Effect...you drive the story (pun intended!) from the perspective of different drivers, including a natural born talent with little money, a journey man who is always the second best, a veteran ex-grand prix driver stuck in a team management role and now wanting some action, and a rising star who was struck down by an injury trying to make a come back - you play their respective career path and the race results dictates the development of the story, and it climaxes where all the characters form an endurance racing team, and start an epic race at the nurburgring 24 hrs/ sebring 12hrs. All your decisions and performance before the finale will affect the strength and reliability of your car, the level of opposition, the loyalty and efficiency of your team etc.

your characters can be hurt and temporary put out of action, crashes will cost team's money and hold you back if you are tight on cash, and if you underperform constantly you might be put in a testing role until you prove yourself. So it will be kind of like Heavy rain too, you have different paths for one ultimate goal and although you may not be 100% successful from all character's perspective, the sum of your effort may or may not be enough to let you succeed.

I think that will be a really cool game, because the life of a real professional driver has alot to do with circumstances, 90% of their work is off track, if a game can condense the drama and struggle of racing off track, and coupe it with a good racing mechanics, where the outcome actually affects the off-track development as it is in real life, it will be awesome.