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Discussion in 'The Rumble Strip' started by Guardian, Mar 13, 2013.
I don't think there's much power creep. Everything has a weak point that can be easily nailed
As of right now, the only trouble decks after these power creeps are PaleoFrogs and Zoodiacs. Zoodiacs just lost Ratpier to 2 that they need at 3 to do their combos.
PaleoFrogs look to be the only real trouble deck and even then, just Summon, Denko Sekka and they can't play at all.
I've talked to others who have played, they agree there is power creep and the game is just fun to keep up with. You and I clearly have different opinions. But compared to playing this, pokemon, hearth, and mtg. I find yugioh the worst, and the most active at shifting the original game to something else to cover for said meta issues.
However, I think they also do it to keep the game interesting.
You do know MTG has 3 simultaneous formats because of the power creep that can happen there?
Pokemon power creep is extremely insane, several of their cards even do worse than what Pot of Greed does here and lets not forget that Talonflame card you can just use freely without evolving. They also constantly remove all the old cards from playability to force you to get the new stuff.
Yes and hearth has two formats, what does that matter, the fact that realized there was an issue is the point. They changed the game to make it viable all around while still allowing for competitive play in older cards. If I want to play some of my favorite cards or not have to buy new alternatives to keep me competitive then I ultimately have to play friendly matches.
Yes they do that, because they're not very appropriate for the current game, not because they want to force you to buy new cards. People would do that regardless due to match typing and abilities new gen mon get. Pokemon is far more popular and it's argued that due to actually having a long running tournament that pays, is why they keep selling.
Unlike yugioh there is nothing in past formats of Pokemon cards that are useful in the current game play. That can't be said vice versa, cause the ban list is quite long and if you look at many of the cards, they'd still be quite relevant if allowed back.
Pretty much all card games can do that, you don't need 3 different rules so you can have 1 to play a friendly match with. Also all 3 formats in MTG have their own competitive scene, it's not like 1 is full of hardcore fans and the other is casual.
Normally I would agree but there is a thing called card errata's, and changes to what a card refers to. The only thing the old cards have that don't make them playable is the old type matchup system that can be easily fixed like how every card that talks about the Monster Zone in Yugioh is now going to refer to the Main Monster Zone once the new rules come out.
Why does this matter? Popularity =/= better/more balanced game.
Isn't that the definition of power creep? Having old cards becoming absolutely useless for the current game. The fact that Yugioh still has older cards still be viable to this day without constant retrains (Every Bushiroad TCG comes to mind) and only uses 1 format rule shows that their power creep actually is well handled compared to other TCGs.
Never said it was. However, one does seem to see a larger draw for Standard and even Commander
That and being vastly weaker counter parts. There was a time where 120 or 130 hp was the max you'd see on a card, now that's not longer the case. Then you add that with typing and the fact that dragon cards were labeled many things to go into the original standard of typing, no longer are such since dragon is it's own type.
If you're talking about yugioh, I guess there are some slight typing issues, but there are many cards on that list that if brought back today would play just fine.
No one said that, what it offers is a game that is easier to follow and more consistent in gameplay. Which would be significant to the argument of less power creep.
No power creep is when certain expansions or cards come about and ruin the balance of the game, forcing makers to either reverse or making another set that actually overpowers the problem to bring some sort of balance back. The problem becomes that it's a cycle that continues out of control.
As I said they use 1 format because of the constant changes made to the original rules and an ever expanding ban list to try and balance the game.
but if old cards are still viable then the balance isn't exactly ruined. Constantly making stuff more powerful and powerful every set like you said would make older cards useless and that's a problem Pokemon has.
A lot of archetypes are actually brought back to relevancy this format, Infernoids and Artifacts due to new "engines" they can use.
Like @RESHIRAM5 said before, there are older decks in Yu-Gi-Oh! that are very much still viable. As mentioned, there's new support for Lightsworns and Dark Worlds (Two archetypes that hail from YGO GX). Crystal Beasts is also an old archetype IIRC.
Actually I said that as well that they're viable. Also a wiki definition of power creep doesn't make it the official one. And since it's a game term that certain people differ on like other terms such as broken, op, balanced, it hard to say one way or the other. My understanding of power creep is partially what you posted but also with the stipulation that certain things introduced into the game are so broken that they change the meta forever. Thus makers effectively build following characters are cards based on the over powered or broken feature made prior. This then causes the game to power creep as you've mentioned.
However, in the case of yugioh, since there are cards that were made and for their time completely over powered, only to be banned after a few expansions, could be brought back and still be competitive. It could be argued they are perhaps not as broken due to the rest of the game finally reaching that level of power, or they're so busted that nothing you can do will fix it.
I think the issue with yughioh compared to others is they have so many subset categories they fall into that it's hard to make a balance and will most likely never have one overall. I think the best balance in yugioh is everyone playing the few meta options there are and then changing when new metas come, if competitive play is your goal.
If you're out to have fun play whatever.
No cause in Pokemon, if I want to play my favorite mon and set up I can. In yugioh I can't. If I for some reason loved Toon world, I'd be hard pressed to find a current setup. If I wanted to play my charmander/charmeleon/charizard from the Base Set (1 set of pokemon cards), I shouldn't be able to because they're outdated, and weren't created with a vision of the game morphing into what it is today.
I'd argue yugioh was always some way or another meant to be the way it currently is, and that's why older cards still have value. They were made to be lasting, pokemon cards were made to be used but also collectible and then the ex format shifted the entire idea.
Eh... then by this logic every game has power creeped drastically, even if old stuff are very much viable. The meta always changes regardless of what game you play.
Name any card you think can comeback off the banlist and be fair.
Actually you pretty much can, Toon actually isn't any bad of a deck and is very playable (little expensive though), in fact since Toon Worlds proper effects are on the monsters and NOT on the actual card, you can combine it with Imperial Order to wear down the opponent while you can still play fine.
So you're happy with them telling you, you shouldn't play these cards at all instead of changing the rules so these type of cards can still be playable (not the best, but you could still play them)?
Who said they didn't I agree, I just simply said I find yugioh to be a pretty big offender and not a game that actually fixes it but ban and then caters to it.
Go back a couple pages, and you have your answer.
Okay, then your better at deck crafting then some, I haven't seen an original toon world deck work, but if you say it does.
I still get to play Charizard in my deck, not really seeing where I'm exactly losing. Once again the cards were old and basically static to just that one set because it played no mind to what we now have. I don't think they were all that keen nor had the foresight to see the game become what it is now. So yes I'm happy with it cause it's a fair notion.
Yugioh as I said was always bound to expand cause the real card game was built on the premise of a fictional one that was ever expanding.
Reason why people don't tend to use it is because Toon Kingdom has more relevant beneifits than Toon World at the time. However with Imperial Order coming back, Toon World is actually looking to be a better card.
Isn't that fixing the power creep of Toon World per say or not?
and like I said before we went onto this argument on power creep that you're not really in touch with todays Yugioh meta if you think Vanity's is an easy to get out of card that didn't need to be ban since you can easily protect it from its destruction condition.
That would be, and that's good if it happens to be consistent. However, one could argue that it's just them going back to old assets due to not having new ones. However, my hope is for a game that has all meta past and current be competitive to varying degree.
That's why we disagree. If you have a win condition centered around it I find it fair. I play plenty of games where I have a win condition centered around one thing, and thus I have multiple things aid me in doing that. If others cant figure out how to beat it so be it. I don't see that as a busted feature. It's when something has so much versatility that it sets up multiple win conditions that is an issue.
If the win condition is play said continuous protect it with a monster that allows it to not be destroyed and then protect that monster from being destroyed with another card. Awesome chain.
Also if I had said cyber stein would that have made you happier?
If you have a Win Condition centre around that, then you shouldn't be able to do a simple, summon of a protector or negation and then set Vanity's, non (which is a massive pull that most decks can do)? A win condition like that would need to be either something to build up to it or a very big combo that has draw backs with cards like hand traps (like with D/D/D) but that isn't the case here.
What? You serious? Well I guess it can come back once the Link rules comes out, but as for now, oh no.
It's cost is steep but it's totally worth it to get ANY FUSION MONSTER YOU WANT THAT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE FUSION SUMMONED!!!! Especially since we got Invoked Mechaba, Invoked Raidjin, Odd-Eyes Vortex Dragon and Frightfur Kraken. Getting these out with 1 card is overkill.
I know I said you can get out Crystal Wing Synchro Dragon with 1 card but doing so with the current method locks you into only being able to summon WIND monsters for the rest of the turn, Stein just costs Life Points and we're at the point where Life Points don't matter compared to field presence.
Just saw a quick video to see how these new Link Monsters work... it wasn't hard to understand after all
I'll post a list with all my deck's cards later today or tomorrow so you can help me reintroduce myself into this.
Yeah... I know I said it several times in the past, but now it's real I'm back into this
If ya have Devpro, I can duel you.
I'm downloading it as we speak but since I'm at the office, it will have to wait a few hours but count me in.
I'm not gonna be free this afternoon. We'll have to wauit until after 10 PM EST
Can do, if I don't fall asleep first
Just got home. Setting up the PC.
If we were able to video chat somehow, we could do IRL duels.
Skype? Not sure about that.
Yeah, not my smartest ideas. We could play on Dueling Book which is an all manual sim that you don't need to download. So we can face off against kids who think MST negates
Anyway, a new set comes out next week to honour the 20 years of Yugioh:
Despite what is written on the box, might want to give a run down:
This set honours 20 years of all Yugioh, not just the anime. It contains cards from the Anime, Manga and even Card Game exclusives that were prominate in the DM, GX, 5D's and Zexal eras. (Yugioh ARC-V was orginally meant to be featured but got scrapped and instead will be featured all on its own in Duelist Pack: Dimension Guardians)
Contains new cards that were featured in the Anime, including Bakura's Diabound Kernal and Zane's Power Wall, as well as the long awaited OCG-exclusive support of the WATER Xyz lineup used by Reginald and his sister. Also contains a way to easily summon the Sacred Beasts from GX and turn into a Pot of Greed when they are summoned in The Fallen Paradise. Also featured is Yusei's ultimate boss monster from Yugioh 5D's that was never printed until now, Cosmic Blazar Dragon. Darklords also got some added support
Contains legendary cards from the TCG that are still relevant being reprinted like Pot of Duality, Solemn Warning, the cards that recently got Limited, Trishula Dragon of the Ice Barrier, M-X-Saber Invoker which was once an irrelevant card in 2013 when it came out but Zoodiacs came in and made it one of the most sought out cards of the deck, Judgment Dragon etc.
Now before anyone goes out and buys a whole lot, this set is expensive. It's more expensive than a Structure and it gives you 3 packs per box of 5 cards, they are all in Ultra Rare but there are cheaper sets that do the same thing.
Getting reprints, I wish you luck, this is a 100 card set, 42 of them are new, and in each pack only 2 of the 5 are reprints.
I'm honestly going to skip this one, the price isn't worth it, especially since I was looking forward to the ARC-V cards that sadly I have to wait for.
I hate reprint stuff like this, now this is just doing stuff for the sake of making money. I agree with you it's expensive, and if I were still a collector, I'd be a little upset.
The new cards attached are just an incentive to purchase I feel like.
Funny thing, the pack honouring ARC-V is apart of the Duelist Pack series meaning it'll be a $3.50 AU pack for 5 cards, meaning it's $10.50 for 3 packs while the set honouring the other Yugioh era's is $20+ for 3 packs.
"...but ...but it's ok, the 5 cards are all in Ultra Rare".
Technically it is okay to a degree. That is for those who would go out and buy the ultra rare singles online save money. For those who actually buy packs on a regular basis it's not.
It's been a week since the Link rules were introduced for the OCG region (Asia regions)
With only 3 Link Monster up their disposal (Decode Talker, Honeybot and Link Spider), there isn't much hype of Extra Deck spamming.
Currently the best decks in the OCG are True Draco (which we'll get in Maximum Crisis) and several Kozmo variants (even a Metalfoe varient surprisingly since what happened was though to hurt them), they do have an Extra Deck but don't really focus on it.
There was a lot of hype for Dinosaurs combined with True King and a lot of OCG were running them but it seemed like a lot of air since hardly any of them went far in any tournaments.
I can do skype also I use it everyday at the office
My personal computer is very slow, so I think I'm going to install devpro here also.