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Discussion in 'The Rumble Strip' started by Guardian, Mar 13, 2013.
So OG Dark Magician and Dark Magician Girl are commons. WTF Konami??? Go yourself.
On a game play standpoint, it is pretty reasonable as they aren't really strong monsters anymore in comparison to the likes of Monsters like Odd-Eyes Pendulum Dragon, Cyber Dragon Infinity etc.
But this deck isn't about being strong. It's a retro themed set based on the original decks that Yugi used throughout the original series. Dark Magician and Dark Magician Girl hold quite a lot of significance for Yugi and the two are practically synonymous so it doesn't make sense for them to be released as commons, especially not Dark Magician.
I know it isn't about being strong but they need to balance the cards out compared to the rest of the cards as this is still Yugioh, so the cards still need to be treated like every other Yugioh card, Dark Magician needs to be much more stronger for it to be fair enough to be higher than a common.
The fact that you think Dark Magician needs to be stronger for it to be a foil is the exact definition of only stronger cards deserve foils. As I've said, this set is not about which cards are stronger than others. It's a retro set designed to bring back the old cards that had connections to Yugi in the original series. Dark Magician in its original artwork hold much more significance than most other cards used by Yugi, arguably, which makes it odd for it to be a common while a card like Gold Sarcophagus, which was only ever used or even mentioned by Yugi once, is an Ultra. Yes, Gold Sarcophagus is arguably a better/stronger card than Dark Magician, but that doesn't mean it deserves a higher rarity because of that. Not in a set that is designed to revisit cards from old Yu-Gi-Oh. In a booster pack maybe.
Additionally, the fact that Dark Magician and Dark Magician Girl in the Battle City deck, plus Magician of Black Chaos, are Ultra Rare, is a sign that "weaker" cards don't necessarily mean lower rarity.
and like I said, despite the whole idea of it, it is still apart of the Yugioh Game and not just some Collectors Item as it can be used in the game. Card Rarity needs to balance it as a game. Only collectors would go for a rare Dark Magician as it isn't worth getting for people who mainly play the game.
I think you're thinking too hard on this being a Collectors Item, sure Collectors would get a kick out of it but at the end of the day, it is still for the actual card game and they need to make sure the cards that are worth using competitively are rarer as Yugi does still have cards that are valuable today. Having cards way stronger than DM be more common doesn't make any sense.
As for the Battle City Pack, that is a bit more different as that comparing DM to various other cards used by other Duelist who lets face it, used way worse card. Here, DM is competing against every single card ever that Yugi has used.
I had to read your guys argument a couple times but in the end @RESHIRAM5 is right. This is TCG set meant to fall in line with various magician and dark decks for the Yugi side game play. The problem is that while trying to do this you're basically bringing back cards that over the time of this game have been catalyst to much strong magicians "Dark Sage" or "Dark Magician Knight" and that's just scratching the surface really.
The cards may hold nostalgic or sentimental vaule to some, but the hardcore player that is actually playing for a prize pool at Worlds...what does this do for them? Why should a card that is 15 years old be given such status when it's be surpassed long ago, in fact why should it be considered more than uncommon? The problem is Konami has brought out so many art versions of the same Dark Magician card without changing or making it as meaningful as Red and Blue eyes white dragon, that it doesn't deserve any more than it is currently given. IF you want rarity on face value then go find a first edition promo of the SDY or Duel Terminal, those are both worth $50-100 dollars. Collectors are always going to go after the limited print, first edition, power house cards and not those that are just reproductions of the original so Konami can make extra coin.
I'm afraid I'm not following which cards you think should be foils. What exactly do you mean by "balance"?
Defeats the whole point of the set then don't you think? It's not a mainstream booster pack or starter/structure deck where new, stronger cards get the focus. There are a few cards in this set that can still be used competitively in an up to date deck but overall the majority of the cards in the set will get curb stomped against newer cards. I can't see anyone who stays up to date in the game buying this set. Or perhaps you think that Konami wishes that people will buy the set just for Mirror Force and Swords of Revealing Light?
Or answer me this: what sort of player exactly is this set aimed at?
So if I haven't mistaken you, the point of releasing Dark Magician is so that they can sell the cards related to it?
I wouldn't expect a hardcore player to even look at this set in the first place, so if Konami wanted above all for this set to be made for them, then they probably wouldn't have bothered with a Yugi-themed set.
Konami has released an equivalent to Yugi's Legendary Decks in the OCG called Memories of the Duel King, and in it are all the important cards to Yugi in foil form. They've also released two booster sets which again have a focus on old cards that were once highly sought after. I don't see why they can't have that same focus here. So while I agree that original releases such as SDY or SDK are what the hardcore collectors will go for, it won't stop players from buying their reproductions.
The Egyptian God Cards were rereleased in Legendary Collection 1, and the fact that its older counterparts exist didn't stop players from buying the new ones as well.
Admittedly, perhaps I'm over estimating the amount of players who care more about old cards than new ones.
Probably one of many reasons.
I'd expect collectors and tournament players to look at any new sets that may give them what they're looking for. The people who this is targeted to are those who collect or play the game...don't know any others types.
If you agree, yet still miss the point then I don't know what to tell you. There is no point to foil form what is nothing more than different artwork on a mass produced scale and say it's as rare as those who came before it that are now in a much limited existence.
New Egyptian God Cards =/= old. The old ones that basically replicate the tv show art and the new ones that actually have the effects of what the cards can do based on the manga and show are quite different. People bought them because the only other way to obtain God cards prior to that was either buying one of the many GBA games or SJ subscription at the right time. In other words they weren't rereleased per say since all other forms were promo versions of the full production that came out in the LC01.
I'd have to say so since the generation of players is quite young and probably not familiar to the original series, however if I recall correctly CW kids started playing the original series again and perhaps that's what they're trying to cash in on.
I never claimed it to be as rare as the old cards. Doesn't diminish the fact that it is relatively a rare artwork of a now mass produced card which in the TCG was only ever widely sold in SDY back in 2002, and then as a promo for a tin and again as a video game promo. Quite limited then compared to its other artworks save for the Arkana version in the TCG. Its appearance in this set would be the first in the TCG for about 12 years.
Regardless, it seems that that isn't enough to convince you that it is worth collecting, which is fair enough since I have to admit I am biased to the old cards. Or maybe I'm just a weird collector.
I was referring to the Illegal God Cards found in LC01...
...but fair point.
I don't think it matters who the pack is targeted for because if they change the rarity to have some weaker cards to be more rarer than stronger cards, it could ruin a bit of balancing of the TCG. The whole collecting point of the game is to try to collect the best monsters, traps and spells to win and having some of them more common kinda defeats the purpose.
Rarer in what sense though? Like, rarity and foils, or rare as in less common and harder to get? If the former, then why? It's a pre-constructed deck; the chances for you to get a strong card or a weak card is the same in any other deck. It's not like a booster pack where chance is involved. If the latter then yes I would agree.
I mean the latter.
Don't you just love it when misunderstandings occur from a lack of mutual agreement in definition?
Hopefully I can get my hands on the set on the 13th.
But it isn't because it's not a limited run, if they really wanted to do a modern DM they'd give it to SJ to boost those sales while still having a limited run card that is worth money in 5-10 years. The problem you still face is you're asking for a card to be made into a rare holofied form based on name, that'd be like asking for a basic Pikachu card to get the same treatment because of it's connection to Ash. Yet the only time Pikachu ever got such was in promo and original form (jungle Pikachu). All in all the card as far as game play goes is no different than all the others and thus isn't special after some point and doesn't deserve to be no matter it's place in the series, that was my entire point.
It really isn't when the end goal is to just rerelease for the nth time cards that have been in circulation prior and in a much rare for as far as obtaining and foil goes. Why should these get the same treatment just because of nostalgia and connection to the main character from the original anime and manga? That was my point.
Figured (Obelisk in some tourny's was actually legal due to having an actual ATK/DEF), which is why you got the point anyways glad we could come to that
All in all I'm glad they did this (even if we don't agree) there are other cards to look forward to that deserve to be limited run or foil or both.
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely glad that they're releasing this set. When I first heard about Memories of the Duel King, it had already been four or so months since its release, and prices went way up when I wanted to buy the three decks. So in that sense I'm glad they're bringing it over to the TCG as well, though as I mentioned I am disappointed that it doesn't have the same level of quality as the OCG with the smaller amount of foils (the OCG set wasn't limited to 5 Ultras per deck). Plus the TCG equivalent doesn't come with the awesome sleeves that the Japanese one got, but then again having stuff watered down for the TCG isn't anything new.
Nevertheless, as I said earlier, I do prefer the older cards, and it's not very often that Konami releases a retro-themed set/deck/whatever, so I will be getting myself this set for sure. Maybe a few.
There is no difference in quality between OCG and TCG, they're the same thing.
OCG is actually an entirely different meta game. That is why you see some cards exclusive to OCG and some exclusive to TCG and some OCG cards taking 5 years to be released to TCG and vise-versa
As for Collecting, due to the places where OCG is have more interest in Yugioh. Packs in those regions tend to have Bonuses that make our packs look like chump change.
As far as I read they're not different, if you can show me where it claims to be then that's fine but as far as I recall tournament wise and overall they're the same thing and it was more of a regional naming (OCG being Japanese, and TCG being the rest of the world).
EDIT: And I do recall what you've said about the time difference in released cards between the two other than that it's the same game. And from what I recall the TCG exclusives get released a year later in OCG form are broken and really hurt the meta in Western Regions, thus due to the time differences in releases we actually make their decks look like chumps. But they have a better and balanced game.
Due to OCG and TCG getting exclusives as well as OCG being ahead, we have entirely different ban lists for Tournaments.
Because of these differences, your TCG deck could not even be legal in OCG as well as OCG decks probably might be stronger than your TCG deck.
There are a few different rulings though from what I heard, Konami is trying to merge all of the rulings:
However; in the World Championships, the cards that are banned in 1 CG are also banned in the World Championship regardless of the other CG. OCG and TCG exclusives are also banned, as well as Prize Cards that are restricted to certain Countries.
I'm guessing you missed the edit. The rules of the game are still the same, and we all get the same cards just different times. The quality of the cards as far as manufacturing goes is the same. The quality of their rarity is what Konami does bs things with to make more money and cause the game to be expensive is not the same. From what I've heard since I still know people who play the game on the tournament level, there isn't any difference. When I asked for something concrete I was hoping you'd provide something from Konami...
Not all OCG and TCG cards get eventually released though.
Also, you missed my Edit about the World Championships which combines both rulings. Maybe they are talking about the World Championship rulings.
While I'll admit the different rulings are very specific as only 5% of total cards have different rulings, the ban lists make playing in OCG and TCG much different than it seems.
As for finding details from Konami, it is pretty much impossible both ways. I'd like to see some sources from you about them being the same thing from Konami. We can only get Secondary Sources on this topic (as in from other people). Like this; (albeit old) Game Mechanic Differences Between the TCG and OCG - Pojo.com Forums
You gave the source, I go based of tournament rules for worlds which I've been using as one of my main points to the argument which is they're all the same. It's where TCG and OCG don't matter and just become nothing but a regional difference. The ban list makes any card game different from region to region because of release dates, if they release dates were the same then the ban list would be the same. Also I haven't found any card that is hasn't been released here that Japan doesn't have or vice versa or planned to be released, what I do see is that certain Japanese cards have a lower rarity when they are made into TCG form, and from a collector stand point I guess they are different.
So in that regard I can see how you're right. As for the Tournament play I see no difference other than people claiming that certain regions step their bounds and try to act differently than the official game. But the overall rule book is the official rule book and thus both games are the same and back to what I originally commented are of the same quality as far as manufacturing goes.
The World Championships basically have to merge OCG and TCG rules due to exclusive cards and different rules. It is a different format in comparison to OCG/TCG advanced. From what I know, tournaments that aren't world use TCG or OCG formats based on regions though I know that OCG allows TCG cards as long as they aren't TCG exclusive.
As for cards that are exclusive to OCG and not currently planned for TCG, here are some:
Chimeratech Rampage Dragon:
B. Dragon Jungle King (this card is really old):
Here is some TCG Exclusive Cards not planned for a future release in OCG:
Okay I see what you mean then, I've not seen the bottom two (I don't play anymore I just keep up with the tournaments and rulings through pojo and twitch). I don't really get the new "blended" cards I mean I know they work like monster and magic in one or trap and monster in another but that's about it. As for the OCG cards I thought those had be released in the U.S. but a quick search proved otherwise. So thanks for teaching me something new about the game.
As for local tournaments I find those iffy, in that they really take it upon themselves on how rulings work and even at times don't follow their own guidelines. In other words I don't see how local tournaments personal understanding of the rules makes an official divide between OCG and TCG. Now what you showed me with exclusivity that indeed is an official way of showing a difference between the two.
Ohhhhh wonderful, Arkana's Dark Magician is Ultra Rare!
Not to mention that OCG cards are printed on much better quality paper. You can really feel the difference if you've ever held both in your hands. Certainly doesn't feel as cheap or as fragile as the TCG cards.
Blended Cards are Pendulum Monsters, put 2 Pendulum Monsters in the new Pendulum Scales and you can summon a bunch of monsters in 1 turn that levels are inbetween the Pendulum Scales. (The number with the Blue and Red Triangles)
When a Pendulum Monster is defeated, it has to go to Extra Deck instead of the Graveyard and if you have 2 Pendulum Monsters on the Scales, you can Pendulum summon the Monster back on the field.
The top text effect only works if the Monster is in the Pendulum Scale while the bottom Text Effect (if it has any) can't be used if the Monster is in the Pendulum Scales.
That's basically what I was trying to get at that isn't different. There is no difference in print quality, Konami distributes all cards. At one time I believe topdeck or something of that name was the one under Konami allowance to print and distribute, but they did things against the agreements and now it's all Konami and in reality even before they used the same method as Konami. I feel people who claim it's some higher quality paper build this perception themselves.
Quick question: have you ever come across an OCG card and held it in your hand? The difference is immediately noticeable.