Z06 motor NOT covered by warranty, if..

[showoff3civic]

But you have still failed to show us any proof that taking a car to the track is less abusive then driving to and from work, school, the store, etc. Ask anyone who tracks their car where they driver harder on public roads or on the track, I bet 99% of them say the track. Prove it to me and I'll believe what you are saying, but in the mean time I just honestly don't think you understand the abuse your car goes through on a track.

Let me ask you this, have you ever tracked a car before?

do you understand that getting into a car when its cold and flooring it is worse then revving it when its warm to redline?

When the engine is cold, the oil is thicker then at running temp. ,i do not suggest reving over 2500 rpms, with thicker oil it cannot lubricate parts as well causing metal to metal contact. No matter how easy you take it, a cold piston will rock within the cylinder and wear when you apply torque to the driveline. Sitting in traffic/stop lights idling lowers the oil pressure causing lack of oil to the cam towers.



and yes i track my car quite a bit

 

[showoff3civic]

its not the obvious abuse but its the ones that you do not think about everyday. Cars take a beating every single day, and that motor/system was made to be driven hard in the upper/lower rpms and if its starving for oil then someone did not to their job. The car was stock, yea he may have been driving hard, but how is it his fault that a high performance car cannot be driven performance oriented.

 

[Joey D]

I don't think there are many people out there that get into their car and just floor it out of a parking lot or their driveway. At times it isn't even possible to do that. And still if sitting in traffic was remotely as hard on your car as tracking in then everyone's vehicle would wear out very quickly, but that isn't the case. You know as well as I do there are all sort of vehicles running around with well over 100,000 miles on it without problem. I am not saying that daily driving isn't hard on your car, I'm saying tracking your car is harder on it.

If you drove on the road like you do on the track you better believe your engine, transmission, clutch, tires, brakes, etc. would wear out much quicker. Once again, read Pupik's post, it pretty much puts it all into a nutshell.

Ok you track your car, where do you drive your vehicle harder at? On the track or on the public road?

 

[eiriksmil]

Okay, are people gonna quit bitching about losing your warranty if you drive it exceptionally hard? This same thing came up with the GT-R tranny.

It's a proven fact that raising the revolutions a machine makes in a set of time will make it wear quicker and faster. Say you've got a 6,700 RPM redline on your engine. Typically, you don't drive in that range unless you're a complete hoon. you only drive like that on a race track. To do this reliably and economically, you need to beef things up. Bigger bearings, possibly even Roller-type, bigger con rods, bigger everything. and you probably won't reach 6,700, because you now have a HUGE engine. so you miss your performance objectives.

People, a typical circle-track racing engine is only good for one season. Those have much stronger, more expensive parts than the typical street car engine. and yet, if driven right, a street engine can last more than 100,000 miles, longer than any race engine there is. but, they won't last if raced. You cannot expect a manufacturer to cover a car that's obviously been raced.

You've read way too many books son.

An engine that can't handle that the revs are approaching the red zone for a long time is a lousy engine, as simple as that.

 

[showoff3civic]

do you understand that getting into a car when its cold and flooring it is worse then revving it when its warm to redline?

When the engine is cold, the oil is thicker then at running temp. ,i do not suggest reving over 2500 rpms, with thicker oil it cannot lubricate parts as well causing metal to metal contact. No matter how easy you take it, a cold piston will rock within the cylinder and wear when you apply torque to the driveline. Sitting in traffic/stop lights idling lowers the oil pressure causing lack of oil to the cam towers.



and yes i track my car quite a bit

I don't think there are many people out there that get into their car and just floor it out of a parking lot or their driveway. At times it isn't even possible to do that. And still if sitting in traffic was remotely as hard on your car as tracking in then everyone's vehicle would wear out very quickly, but that isn't the case. You know as well as I do there are all sort of vehicles running around with well over 100,000 miles on it without problem. I am not saying that daily driving isn't hard on your car, I'm saying tracking your car is harder on it.

If you drove on the road like you do on the track you better believe your engine, transmission, clutch, tires, brakes, etc. would wear out much quicker. Once again, read Pupik's post, it pretty much puts it all into a nutshell.

Ok you track your car, where do you drive your vehicle harder at? On the track or on the public road?

drive train wise my car sees almost 9k revs everyday, longer durations at the track. I understand what you am saying but you are not understanding what I am saying. How often do you track your car? a couple times a year how often do you get into your car and drive it not thinking about all of the other factors the wear down engines. Sure engines make 100k miles because they are engineered to do that they are meant to take the abuse that people give them. My Friend had a DC-5S that should have blowen up years ago but it has 120k miles on it and he redlines that car and bounces revlimiter all the time.

you are correct a car is driven harder on the track, i didn't quite use my verbage correctly what i meant to say that wear and tear is probably about the same as most peoples every day driven. There is no way to prove this theory because i dint have 2 motors that are the same that one that can be daily driven and one that can be run at 8k all day long to prove the point.

Lets try to put it this way, I start a computer business. I start the highest speed internet yet to date and the best computer systems around. Run all the lines to people hook there computer up market it as the fastest both online and processer speed. Then tell them that they have a 3 year warrenty on the computer but you cannot use the internet because i cannot cover your computer if you do.

 

[Azuremen]

I'm pretty sure I've seen a lot of figures that put a track mile fairly equivalent of doing a few hundred miles of street driving.

The entire way in which you presented your entire argument was terrible though.

 

[showoff3civic]

No, it isn't. But the customer agrees to the terms of the contact prior to signing. Further, oil starvation at a track is fairly beyond normal driving requirements. On top of that, he could have been using slicks, incorrect weight of oil for the situation, and so on.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a lot of figures that put a track mile fairly equivalent of doing a few hundred miles of street driving.

The entire way in which you presented your entire argument was terrible though.

why was my presentation terrible? At least i read the whole thread before i commented

 

[Azuremen]

why was my presentation terrible? At least i read the whole thread before i commented

You mean I didn't know if he swapped out tires which is a common thing to do for track days. Tisk.

You presented as daily driving worse than track driving.

 

[niky]

@showoffcivic

No no no.

Even if you rev the nuts off of an engine on the street, that's nowhere near as bad as track driving.

A modern internal combustion engine is "warm" after just thirty seconds. After four or five minutes of driving around, it's hot enough to rev to redline with no issue.

You drive your car on the street. You rev it at the stoplight, take off, slow down for the next. Your car is at high rpms for just a few seconds, then it has time to cool down. You're driving in a straight line, too, so the most sloshing your oil in the sump will see is about 0.5 to 0,6 gs of forward acceleration for a few seconds. Not nearly enough, really, even at redline, to increase wear significantly. And as you coast down or idle at the stoplight, you're shedding heat through the radiator.

On the racetrack, your average performance car will see 0.6 gs of forward acceleration, over 1g of deceleration and up to or over 1g of lateral acceleration multiple times over the course of a 1 to 2 minute lap. You will never see this many chances at oil starvation on the street within such a short period of time. Granted, a dry sump should help counter this, but it's merely extra insurance... it will not completely prevent engine failure.

And you're revving hard all the time. Oil temperatures go up. Coolant temperatures soar. It'd take over an hour in 100+ degree summer heat in traffic to heat soak your engine as badly as three or four laps on the racetrack. At high temperatures and high revs, cavitation can occur at the water pump, making the problem worse, as bubbles of air in your coolant will allow temperatures to go higher, still. Most stock cooling systems can't take it. A performance car usually has a better cooling system, can, but again, that's insurance, not a guarantee.

I've seen Type-R's blow up on track due to over-revving (engine braking into a corner) and oil starvation (there's one track here that's notorious for it, due to the high g's the flat corner layout can generate...). Hondas have great engines (I regard the K20 as probably the best four-banger yet developed), but they're not indestructible.

Whether or not there's a fault with the engine is irrelevant to the idea of whether track use should or should not be covered. Track use is not covered, period. Some dealers will turn a blind eye and go "wink-wink-we'll cover it for ya, amigo", but that's the exception, rather than the norm.

Again, it's rough, but the explicit denial of warranty for track use allows manufacturers to provide better service for the rest of their customers.

 

[neanderthal]

heres an idea
you wanna race? buy a racecar. and drive it in its environment, a racetrack.

wanna buy a passenger car. go ahead, but dont race it then complain when parts break.
there's a reason why race cars are expensive. and don't come with warranties.

the reason why manufacturers use race courses and "proving grounds" is to establish the performance of the car. rules are in place that prevent unregulated vehicles. thats why they have their own facilities to test cars on. factory testing is much more extreme than whatever you can do to your car, so when you exceed the factory's design parameters you are going beyond the scope of what is covered by the warranty.

why can't people take responsibility for their actions?

 

[Duke]

why can't people take responsibility for their actions?

I'm all for that. What I'm not all for is manufacturers encouraging owners to do things that will void their warranty. Like giving them SCCA memberships and offering track days. If you're not going to cover it, don't offer it yourself.

And I still think the GT-R transmission breakage is bullcrap on Nissan's part. If it was a real manual and they were peglegging the clutch from 5,000 rpm, fine, that's abuse. If they were doing neutral drops, again, that's abuse. Void the warranty coverage and I won't complain at all. But NISSAN programmed the launch control function and if their freaking car can't handle it, then they should have programmed it differently or not put it there at all.

 

[1X83Z]

I'm all for that. What I'm not all for is manufacturers encouraging owners to do things will void their warranty. Like giving them SCCA memberships and offering track days. If you're not going to cover it, don't offer it yourself.

And I still think the GT-R transmission breakage is bullcrap on Nissan's part. If it was a real manual and they were peglegging the clutch from 5,000 rpm, fine, that's abuse. If they were doing neutral drops, again, that's abuse. Void the warranty coverage and I won't complain at all. But NISSAN programmed the launch control function and if their freaking car can't handle it, then they should have programmed it differently or not put it there at all.

+1

Same deal w/ the Z06. Quit pitching it as a track car if you'll void the warranty once an owner uses it like you designed it to be used.

Nissan's stupid though - Ferrari has launch control in their cars in the entire world, except the USA, for this very reason. Nissan should've figured that out at some point in the design process.

 

[the Interceptor]

Well, they have learned it the hard way, since the 2009 GT-R won't have it anymore.

On another note, launch control does not make a launch easier on the car. I'd say the opposite: since it minimizes wheel and clutch slip, it maximizes stress on the components. Therefore, having launch control doesn't mean that using it will be any better than doing maximally hard launches with a manual car.

 

[Pupik]

I think the issue here is whether a car is a track car or not: Manufacturers rarely specifically say so, it would have to be a car that could not be licensed for road use (Motorsport Elise? Porsche 959?), for it to be an open-and-shut case. Personally, from my personal viewpoint of working for a shop and behind the wheel, a car that has not been modified in any way, nor crashed/salvaged/rebuilt, should still be covered by a warranty, unless proven to have been used in competition. That's my opinion.

The thing is, manufacturers cannot possibly emulate the all various driving techniques used by many different driving habits, and cannot conceive of all scenarios in which a car can stand up to abuse. So they outline what is acceptable or not acceptable, in order to have your car's warranty to be honored by its manufacturer. The manufacturer has to be divisive over these things, since there is only one choice or another. People want a quick answer when their car's being repaired; nobody likes to be told "it's free" and then you have to hit them with a bill for "uh...it's not free".

How do they prove street racing? That's not officially sanctioned, after all...You could chalk it up to driving, after all. Is going to work in your car, the same as using it for work purposes? Hauling people or hauling cargo? Some things are hard to prove, and from my experience, usually the owner will straight away tell you how and what happened to their car, and when it occurred. It's actually rare that someone does not own up to what they did to it. If it's a really unusual incident, the truth will come out sooner or later.

The warranty process is black-and-white: You're either covered or not covered, simple as that. There is almost no room for "maybes", except in rare cases of pro rata for things like batteries, or goodwill warranty (brand/owner splits, et cetera). Good manufacturer-based repair shops have a shop foreman who's seen it all, and they make the call and decide if something self-destructed, or was abused (or if a technician makes a big mistake...loose screws do not compress well against in a piston). They see the mundane over and over again, and generally spot the unusual right away; in time, the known issues separate themselves from the one-time warrantable incidents and those caused by outside forces. And if you're lucky, the area reps and engineers will come back to check it out. Think you're going to fool someone with a clipboard and a micrometer?

There are times when they cannot figure out whether the chicken or the egg came first, and in those rare cases, the manufacturer generally goes to bat for the owner, and covers repairs. I've had people claim they do nothing excessive with their car, yet have larger brakes, wider tires and wheels, and lower the car. For Carl Benz's sake, read the section about your warranty, and wait until the warranty is effectively over before racing your car on a track. Can't wait? Buy beater in the meanwhile. The dealer's service adviser is not going to stick his neck out and claim warranty for someone he does not know, so don't bother asking.

 

[neanderthal]

i think its fair to say occasional hard driving is covered by the warranty

i think its also fair to say that repeated clutch drops at the same venue on the same day, are not "occasional hard driving." but abuse.

if you go get your racing licence, chevy will sell you a turn key C6 racecar, just put up the cash. porsche will do the same. bring cash; lots of it.

lets stop pretending that marketing reflects reality.

following the logic some of you are using, i should sue the makers of axe mens products if i use their products; shower gel and deodorant; then walk outside and am not immediately mobbed by scores of hot girls. by default, it means their product is not working if reality happens.

"oh, but thats a scripted commercial" you say. "i can tell those models, including the protagonist, were hired to project a certain image, to put the product in a positive light."

well, do you think they got joe the plumber to come and perform those powerslides in the car commercial? maybe karen the commuter.
the pro race driver is the equivalent of the actors. its a script. ergo, its a fantasy.

marketing reflects fantasy, by definition, they are selling you an idea. to expect to cash in on that idea is folly, of the highest magnitude.

no warranty.

 

[1X83Z]

i think its fair to say occasional hard driving is covered by the warranty

i think its also fair to say that repeated clutch drops at the same venue on the same day, are not "occasional hard driving." but abuse.

if you go get your racing licence, chevy will sell you a turn key C6 racecar, just put up the cash. porsche will do the same. bring cash; lots of it.

lets stop pretending that marketing reflects reality.

following the logic some of you are using, i should sue the makers of axe mens products if i use their products; shower gel and deodorant; then walk outside and am not immediately mobbed by scores of hot girls. by default, it means their product is not working if reality happens.

"oh, but thats a scripted commercial" you say. "i can tell those models, including the protagonist, were hired to project a certain image, to put the product in a positive light."

well, do you think they got joe the plumber to come and perform those powerslides in the car commercial? maybe karen the commuter.
the pro race driver is the equivalent of the actors. its a script. ergo, its a fantasy.

marketing reflects fantasy, by definition, they are selling you an idea. to expect to cash in on that idea is folly, of the highest magnitude.

no warranty.

Fair points, but listen -- every few weeks at about 2am I take my car to some very twisty back roads and absolutely flog the **** out of it. I guarantee I drive it harder than some people do at autocrosses and track days. My car's off warranty, but if it was warranty-eligible, who's to allow me to do that and yet not compete at track days?

 

[McLaren]

Fair points, but listen -- every few weeks at about 2am I take my car to some very twisty back roads and absolutely flog the **** out of it. I guarantee I drive it harder than some people do at autocrosses and track days. My car's off warranty, but if it was warranty-eligible, who's to allow me to do that and yet not compete at track days?

In honesty, they're probably not even going to know unless you outright tell them you flogged it.

I think one of the differences, though, is that a lot of track days have people from the manufacturers there. I believe Chevy & others have had law suits about it in the past with them showing up at SCCA events finding out who's who.

But, back to your question, the manufacturer more than likely probably doesn't like that, either. However, you're not at a race track, and there isn't the chance someone's there to watch you. Plus, I think those computers in the car would have to be downright amazing (and they may be) to report back to mechanics that the car had been purposely pushed every 2 weeks on the road at 2AM.

TBH again, I think your case is just you taking advantage of a situation where the manufacturer can't possibly find out, much like how I've had my TL serviced right after a track day.

Unless you break a major part in the car, or do something that leads or lets the mechanic know you did it and are now able to be have your warranty terminated, I would say you would easily be in the clear of "lying" to the dealer.

 

[Jim Prower]

Fair points, but listen -- every few weeks at about 2am I take my car to some very twisty back roads and absolutely flog the **** out of it. I guarantee I drive it harder than some people do at autocrosses and track days. My car's off warranty, but if it was warranty-eligible, who's to allow me to do that and yet not compete at track days?

No-one.

You see, while long ago, you might have been able to get away with it, (and even taking it to a track) and illegally stealing dealer service from the company for free, Newer cars have these computers and sensors, and they can record exactly what your car was doing when it broke. a simple check, and your claim that you were "driving it normally" is blown out of the water. "Hey, look. he had the engine above 6,500 five minutes before it broke. That's not normal!" Even if it was (illiegally) being driven such on the street and open road. so much for sticking it to the man.

But then, when these yutzes get caught trying to screw the dealer over (where they might not've before,) and void their warranty, what do they do instead? That's right, they post on blogs and forums, about how bad the company is and how stupid the car is.

People, trying to circumvent the terms of your warranty is ILLEGAL. I'll agree on the GT-R Tranny, that they shouldn't program something that has the potential to break the car into the computer systems, but attempting to get service after doing something CLEARLY not allowed in the LEGAL DOCUMENT that the owner signed, is dishonest and wrong.

Read a paper before you put your signature down on the dotted line, buddy, no matter how hard the salesman is badgering you.

 

[neanderthal]

Fair points, but listen -- every few weeks at about 2am I take my car to some very twisty back roads and absolutely flog the **** out of it. I guarantee I drive it harder than some people do at autocrosses and track days. My car's off warranty, but if it was warranty-eligible, who's to allow me to do that and yet not compete at track days?

that'd be the occasional hard driving then, innit?

as long as you're not doing it for hours and hours then i would say its not abuse. one hour, fine. 3 or 4, well, at some point we've stepped over the limit from hard driving to abuse. its not MY place to decide where and when. its the manufacturers.

it is what it is, i dont make the rules.

 

[1X83Z]

No-one.

You see, while long ago, you might have been able to get away with it, (and even taking it to a track) and illegally stealing dealer service from the company for free, Newer cars have these computers and sensors, and they can record exactly what your car was doing when it broke. a simple check, and your claim that you were "driving it normally" is blown out of the water.

Honestly, I strongly disagree. I'd bet my life that a manufacturer would NOT check the computers unless it was a HUGE warranty claim, and even then they'd probably not use it against me or even be ABLE to use it against me. Who are they to claim that using it at 6500rpm is against terms of the warranty? That's below redline and if it's at a legal speed, what's so bad about it? If they denied a warranty claim based on that, I would sue, and I would win.

That's the problem I have with this - if Z06 guy had simply admitted to being on the road when this happened, they'd replace the engine, like they've done for the majority of CTS-Vs manufactured. Not so simply because this guy told the truth. In this case, it'd be worth the fraud.

 

[wrcsti]

I just remembered a track in PR where after you crashed they would for 50 bucks tow your car to the highway so you could get insurance on it and even throw pieces of car on the side of the road to make it more realistic.

 

[Jim Prower]

I just remembered a track in PR where after you crashed they would for 50 bucks tow your car to the highway so you could get insurance on it and even throw pieces of car on the side of the road to make it more realistic.

That's insurance fraud. and very, very illegal.

 

[neanderthal]

i h8 insurance companies. absolutely hate em.

on one hand, i almost applaud that. on the other, that is very very low. karma will win out.

 

[TheBigMan045]

Honestly, I strongly disagree. I'd bet my life that a manufacturer would NOT check the computers unless it was a HUGE warranty claim

Hate to burst your bubble but this is easily done with GM Tech2 and later diagonistic equipment, simple plug and play. Within 2 minutes this can be done, even a simple thing like putting a disc in the wrong way is recorded. I used to do work experience with the local Holden GM dealer, so i have seen this done single handed.

 

[niky]

Fair points, but listen -- every few weeks at about 2am I take my car to some very twisty back roads and absolutely flog the **** out of it. I guarantee I drive it harder than some people do at autocrosses and track days. My car's off warranty, but if it was warranty-eligible, who's to allow me to do that and yet not compete at track days?

Some of those people who DO blow their engines on the odd back-road DO get their warranty voided. There are markers that will tell the manufacturer that you have been revving high for disproportionately long periods of time... and the nature of the damage will also point to a reason for the failure. A failed number four or number one piston, for example, on front-wheel drive cars, will point to oil starvation due to hard cornering.

And that's where manhy engine failures on track come from... hard cornering. On an autocross, you can often build over 1.1 gs of lateral acceleration... which can kill your engine if your oil level is low and you're revving hard at the time. On the streets, with the lower grip of the dusty/moist/broken asphalt you will find on many backroads or mountain passes, you can't generate much more than 0.7 to 0.8 gs... which isn't enough to cause oil starvation. And you have nice long stretches to help cool down the engine. On the autocross, you're at high revs at low speeds, building up the stress for the engine to ridiculous levels.

I've never overheated a healthy engine on the road. No matter how hard I drove. I've done it in just 10 minutes on the racetrack.

 

[Duke]

Hell, in a 50-second autocross run on my street tires I've generated enough oil slosh to exit the gates with the valves rattling.

 

[EA11R]

I realize that, as a Californian, what I'm about to say isn't at all suprising, but I must: Sue them.

GM has quite clearly violated the terms of a contract by denying that owner any form of help whatsoever. If the only way to get someone to listen is to legally obligate them, then so be it. I'm not sure why there's so little outrage here.

 

[Joey D]

I realize that, as a Californian, what I'm about to say isn't at all suprising, but I must: Sue them.

GM has quite clearly violated the terms of a contract by denying that owner any form of help whatsoever. If the only way to get someone to listen is to legally obligate them, then so be it. I'm not sure why there's so little outrage here.

GM hasn't violated any terms though. It says in the guidelines that taking your car to the track will void your warranty. A law suit wouldn't do any good.

 

[Race Idiot]

If you can afford a corvette and afford to track it surely you can budget in some extra moola in case something breaks. Unless you are a gay babby who cries 'a bloo a bloo i blew my engine gm waah fix my car for me waa'

 

[EA11R]

GM hasn't violated any terms though. It says in the guidelines that taking your car to the track will void your warranty. A law suit wouldn't do any good.

It appeared that the manual specified competitive driving and racing as warranty-voiding activities. Not simply driving quickly on a course without competition. Was the original poster wrong?

And yes, I know this is loophole-speak, but I feel people should be held to their loopholes. Which is why I use an annoying amount of disclaimers in dialogue.

If you can afford a corvette and afford to track it surely you can budget in some extra moola in case something breaks. Unless you are a gay babby who cries 'a bloo a bloo i blew my engine gm waah fix my car for me waa'

Perhaps for some Corvette owners, but you must remember that the Corvette is the cheapest car of its kind, that being "very fast car without embarassing weight-saving measures." Which means that it's the sort of car to attract people who seek the cheapest not by preference, but by necesity, and therefore who don't have the spare cash to purchase a new motor. Besides, I imagine Corvette motor may be very costly? Perhaps not, since it is American, which may entail suprisingly low price, as sometimes is the case.