Sometimes I truly wish PD would learn how to make a racing sim....

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Lovin the tire model! Excited to see how rFactor 2 would match up against iRacing :)

But anyway, if you want to enjoy GT5, then just dump the single player all together. Get together with other human racers and organize a gathering - then race.

(Click here for an example - WSGTC) :sly:

The only complain i have right now is the unrealistic slipstream. Quoting Kaz himself in one video during TGS 2007 (before Prologue release): "Why is the GTR catching up like that? It shouldn't be doing that!" ....or somewhere along that line.
 
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Yes GT lack at some areas when it comes to racing eachother.
Still here we are. Made an effort to post on a thread on a gt-forum complaining about what gt should have. And indeed it would have been a nice new element to the game.
But when it comes down to it. We all love the game more then most of the others even if your stubborn minds wont accept it ;).
Good points though! Visibile tire dmg, amazing! You guys go and look on some used tires and i will have a blast in GT ^^.

GT is more living now then ever. And PD is improving even when it comes to the visual AND the racingpart. :cheers:
 
That's a great video, but I completely disagree that PD needs to change their focus to be a "racing simulator". We already have a TON of good racing simulators in the world, and despite all the faults that GT5 has, it still has a very unique position in the sim-racing world. Instead of simulating every nuance of a specific form of motor-sport (or subset of forms), what PD does is simulate what it feels like to drive the vehicles they simulate. It might sound similar on the surface, but it is functionally miles apart. Some racing sims (iRacing for example) don't even bother with a substantial real-life car list. GT is more a series for the car-enthusiast instead of the motor-sports enthusiast. It is in this area that the GT series truly shines. I've played a lot of SIMs, but I almost always lose interest because in many sims the cars "feel" the same (and yes, I'm a wheel driver). The experience is just too similar from car model to car model.

This example is easy to illustrate: Take two cars which are, on paper, reasonably similar. Let's use the Ferrari Enzo and the Ford GT. Here are 2 mid-engine modern super-cars. Each has tremendous power and grip. But the experience of driving them in GT5 is utterly different. One of them is refined and smooth and glorious, while the other one is brutal and abusive and glorious! This is the fundamental difference between the GT series and most other racing-sims. It's exactly why people who are GT fan-boys like to think that nothing is as great as Gran Turismo, and why "purist" racing-sim fan-boys pretend that the GT series isn't even a "sim": these products are simulating fundamentally different things.

I for one hope PD sticks with what they know. Fix all the problems with GT5 and give us the product we should have had when it was released. The last thing I want is for them to try and compete with dedicated racing sims. I think they should continue to produce sims that make you go "WOW! so that's what driving that car would have felt like."
 
Look on the cover of your game. "The Real Driving Simulator"; not racing simulator. As stated in the post above, there is a difference.
 
ZohsixGT5
Look on the cover of your game. "The Real Driving Simulator"; not racing simulator. As stated in the post above, there is a difference.
Click to expand...

If I had a real racing simulator and decided to do hot laps on my own at a slow pace, would I then have a driving simulator.

Seems to me that a racing simulator when driven slow on your own can be a driving simulator.

A driving simulator is only that. Not a racing simulator.
 
zippy_the_cat
The "no consequences for going off road" comment makes me wonder if you're playing the same game I am. When I drop a wheel onto grass, at speed in a RWD under power and with any degree of turn cranked in, I get instant snap oversteer and a tank-slapper. Which is realistic, by the way; just ask Mike Rockenfeller. When I get into a gravel trap, I get in practical terms a 10-second time penalty. That's not always realistic, as you can't get completely stuck like you can in real life. But also in real life, a gravel trap doesn't always mean end-of-race. C.f. Lewis Hamilton at Spa in 2010. And in real life, you can go off and on over grass if you manage the throttle properly. C.f. the "be a Hero" camera commercial that plays ad infinitum on the Speed channel here in the states where the guy driving an open-wheeler puts two wheels on the grass as he's passing somebody on a track day and lives to tell the tale.

The damage situation I just read as a design choice. PD clearly believes end-of-race-level damage would deter people from taking up the game. So hitting walls and such causes actual (in rally special events) and practical (A-Spec) time penalties. Other developers make different choices. But there's no question that punitive damage steepens the learning curve.
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I am comparing it to the other games I have moved onto. Anway there's no need to put off the players who don't like the ultra realism if you make it optional like it has been in most racing games since Geoff Crammond's F1 back in 1991 - optional levels of realism is not a new concept.

ZohsixGT5
Look on the cover of your game. "The Real Driving Simulator"; not racing simulator. As stated in the post above, there is a difference.
Click to expand...

OK because this response comes up so often, I am going to start a fresh game of GT5 and see how much driving I can do, in how many cars without doing anything related to racing. I'll post back with the non racing related driving options....
 
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If your thread was more constructive, and about the furthing and future of what could be Gran Turismo, then that would be awesome.... but you're trying to discredit the company for making a console game.
 
MoGoSpeed
If your thread was more constructive, and about the furthing and future of what could be Gran Turismo, then that would be awesome.... but you're trying to discredit the company for making a console game.
Click to expand...

I don't think he's trying to 'discredit' PD, he's just hoping that PD can learn to improve the racing aspect of the series.
 
Opening Post "More and more I'm starting to realize PD does not understand racing."

Even though Kaz, actually does Race. Where's the logic in that.
 
MoGoSpeed
Opening Post "More and more I'm starting to realize PD does not understand racing."

Even though Kaz, actually does Race. Where's the logic in that.
Click to expand...

Kaz understands racing in reality, but he and PD have yet to sucessfully translate that knowledge into compelling racing experience in the virtual world. He's saying they need to understand videogame racing better........ I think :P
 
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^ well obviously..... you have the limitations of creating a game added into that. That's the goal of all these games. Then factor in Game companies have different agendas then others on their implementation.
 
Spagetti69
If I had a real racing simulator and decided to do hot laps on my own at a slow pace, would I then have a driving simulator.

Seems to me that a racing simulator when driven slow on your own can be a driving simulator.

A driving simulator is only that. Not a racing simulator.
Click to expand...

How about "driving very fast simulator" then?
 
ZohsixGT5
Look on the cover of your game. "The Real Driving Simulator"; not racing simulator. As stated in the post above, there is a difference.
Click to expand...

So I started a brand new game of GT5 with the intention of just simulating driving, none of that racing rubbish, because GT5 is the real driving simulator.

20k cr

To give myself the most driving options I decided to buy the cheapest cars I could from the UCD.

That meant I have the following driving options

Mitsubishi Minica Dangan zz'89 - standard
Honda Beat '91 - standard.

This left me 5,492 credits. Which I can use to pimp my rides.

Of course, I don't get a cockpit with these, so what if I want to simulate sitting in the car? 💡

I could have bought a civic Type-R premium but with only 20cr change
Or a daihatsu Copen Active Top '02 with 5k change
or a choice of Eunos roadster
or an Autozam Az-1
Nissan March

I won't go on. Needless to say these are all cars I have been drooling at the prospect of driving round the 'ring :sly:

OK so now what are my non-racing options in the game? Let's see...

OK I can go to GT auto and pimp my oil I'll have to wait to paint the car unless I want to swap the colours of one onto the other though as I only have two paint options :grumpy:

I can add a wing to my Minica - cool! :drool:
Overhaul the engine this is going to rock! :scared:
1742cr left
Tuning shop here we come...
Sports air filter (who needs a racing filter in a 'driving' game?) :sly:
Sports cat converter

hmm can't afford anything else now. :grumpy:
So I have my pimped Minaca at 78BHP and my Beat at 58BHP

Let's drive!!!! :drool:

Free practice - yup not race related although I have to ask, what am I practicing for?

Photomode? Oh no, I bought the wrong car. :dunce:

Everything else seems to be racing related. Which is odd because I didn't buy a racing game. It says the real driving simulator on the box. :dunce:

Oh well let's try this free practice.
What is drifting? I don't think I do that when going for a quick spin. :crazy:

Right well I'll do this run thing...

Well the handling and graphics were great, but I could get bored of driving this car pretty quick.

So let's sell my poor car choices and see if I can get something a bit more fun to drive. 💡

oh I can only sell 1 of them because I can't sell a car that is being driven :(

So now I only have the Minica and 4682cr but there aren't any other cars I can buy for that amount, :(

I guess I'll just have to wait until a another 2nd hand car crops up that I can afford. Or I could put the game back in the box. I didn't buy this game to be forced to race after all. 👎

A Facetious post, but I really did do this. I'm just trying to point out how silly it is to defend the poor racing by regurgitating the subtitle on the front cover when there is NO non-racing content in the game (if you start from scratch)

So please don't keep repeating this disingenuous 'argument'
 
GT5 is a racing and driving simulator. If it was not a racing simulator then online racing series setup by people would be boring if the racing is that bad. Also there is a live race soon between an F1 star and 6 GT5 gamers. It will be interesting to see how that works as David is driving in the real world live against GT5 drivers in the virtual world.

https://www.gtplanet.net/mercedes-live-race-gt5-competition-with-david-coulthard/
 
I've played pretty much every modern and many older racing simulators, and yet I still come back to GT. I'm not saying it's a great racing simulator. I haven't come across one of those at all, AI is generally too slow without "cheating", and online racing doesn't expressly need a programmed framework to "work" (look at the online racing community for GT5) although it can obviously help.

No, GT offers something different. Do I wish it had more sim and racing elements to it? Of course, but I am rich in opportunities for that already. I just want everything under one roof, as is only human.

Also, I hated rFactor. ISI have a long way to go to impress me with rFactor 2. Funny, though, that ISI-derived sims such as the Race and GTR series are more palatable to me, despite being much less than perfect themselves, even in the physics department. Hell, even iRacing's physics are flawed (despite being excellent, of course.) Can't fault the racing, though. ;)
 
mr_serious
So I started a brand new game of GT5 with the intention of just simulating driving, none of that racing rubbish, because GT5 is the real driving simulator.

20k cr

To give myself the most driving options I decided to buy the cheapest cars I could from the UCD.

That meant I have the following driving options

Mitsubishi Minica Dangan zz'89 - standard
Honda Beat '91 - standard.

This left me 5,492 credits. Which I can use to pimp my rides.

Of course, I don't get a cockpit with these, so what if I want to simulate sitting in the car? 💡

I could have bought a civic Type-R premium but with only 20cr change
Or a daihatsu Copen Active Top '02 with 5k change
or a choice of Eunos roadster
or an Autozam Az-1
Nissan March

I won't go on. Needless to say these are all cars I have been drooling at the prospect of driving round the 'ring :sly:

OK so now what are my non-racing options in the game? Let's see...

OK I can go to GT auto and pimp my oil I'll have to wait to paint the car unless I want to swap the colours of one onto the other though as I only have two paint options :grumpy:

I can add a wing to my Minica - cool! :drool:
Overhaul the engine this is going to rock! :scared:
1742cr left
Tuning shop here we come...
Sports air filter (who needs a racing filter in a 'driving' game?) :sly:
Sports cat converter

hmm can't afford anything else now. :grumpy:
So I have my pimped Minaca at 78BHP and my Beat at 58BHP

Let's drive!!!! :drool:

Free practice - yup not race related although I have to ask, what am I practicing for?

Photomode? Oh no, I bought the wrong car. :dunce:

Everything else seems to be racing related. Which is odd because I didn't buy a racing game. It says the real driving simulator on the box. :dunce:

Oh well let's try this free practice.
What is drifting? I don't think I do that when going for a quick spin. :crazy:

Right well I'll do this run thing...

Well the handling and graphics were great, but I could get bored of driving this car pretty quick.

So let's sell my poor car choices and see if I can get something a bit more fun to drive. 💡

oh I can only sell 1 of them because I can't sell a car that is being driven :(

So now I only have the Minica and 4682cr but there aren't any other cars I can buy for that amount, :(

I guess I'll just have to wait until a another 2nd hand car crops up that I can afford. Or I could put the game back in the box. I didn't buy this game to be forced to race after all. 👎

A Facetious post, but I really did do this. I'm just trying to point out how silly it is to defend the poor racing by regurgitating the subtitle on the front cover when there is NO non-racing content in the game (if you start from scratch)

So please don't keep repeating this disingenuous 'argument'
Click to expand...
Nothing short of a good ol' fashioned epic win.
MoGoSpeed
^yawn
Click to expand...
Nothing short of a good ol' fashioned epic fail.


So I guess a player has to race to play the game after all, it's settled.
 
mr_serious
So I started a brand new game of GT5 with the intention of just simulating driving, none of that racing rubbish, because GT5 is the real driving simulator.

20k cr

To give myself the most driving options I decided to buy the cheapest cars I could from the UCD.

That meant I have the following driving options

Mitsubishi Minica Dangan zz'89 - standard
Honda Beat '91 - standard.

This left me 5,492 credits. Which I can use to pimp my rides.

Of course, I don't get a cockpit with these, so what if I want to simulate sitting in the car? 💡

I could have bought a civic Type-R premium but with only 20cr change
Or a daihatsu Copen Active Top '02 with 5k change
or a choice of Eunos roadster
or an Autozam Az-1
Nissan March

I won't go on. Needless to say these are all cars I have been drooling at the prospect of driving round the 'ring :sly:

OK so now what are my non-racing options in the game? Let's see...

OK I can go to GT auto and pimp my oil I'll have to wait to paint the car unless I want to swap the colours of one onto the other though as I only have two paint options :grumpy:

I can add a wing to my Minica - cool! :drool:
Overhaul the engine this is going to rock! :scared:
1742cr left
Tuning shop here we come...
Sports air filter (who needs a racing filter in a 'driving' game?) :sly:
Sports cat converter

hmm can't afford anything else now. :grumpy:
So I have my pimped Minaca at 78BHP and my Beat at 58BHP

Let's drive!!!! :drool:

Free practice - yup not race related although I have to ask, what am I practicing for?

Photomode? Oh no, I bought the wrong car. :dunce:

Everything else seems to be racing related. Which is odd because I didn't buy a racing game. It says the real driving simulator on the box. :dunce:

Oh well let's try this free practice.
What is drifting? I don't think I do that when going for a quick spin. :crazy:

Right well I'll do this run thing...

Well the handling and graphics were great, but I could get bored of driving this car pretty quick.

So let's sell my poor car choices and see if I can get something a bit more fun to drive. 💡

oh I can only sell 1 of them because I can't sell a car that is being driven :(

So now I only have the Minica and 4682cr but there aren't any other cars I can buy for that amount, :(

I guess I'll just have to wait until a another 2nd hand car crops up that I can afford. Or I could put the game back in the box. I didn't buy this game to be forced to race after all. 👎

A Facetious post, but I really did do this. I'm just trying to point out how silly it is to defend the poor racing by regurgitating the subtitle on the front cover when there is NO non-racing content in the game (if you start from scratch)

So please don't keep repeating this disingenuous 'argument'
Click to expand...

👍
 
CSLACR
Nothing short of a good ol' fashioned epic win.

Nothing short of a good ol' fashioned epic fail.


So I guess a player has to race to play the game after all, it's settled.
Click to expand...

Sure, but it's not The Real Racing Simulator, so the racing is bound to be sub-par. :sly:

Seriously, you're all as bad as each other. 👎
 
saidur_ali
GT5 is a racing and driving simulator. If it was not a racing simulator then online racing series setup by people would be boring if the racing is that bad. Also there is a live race soon between an F1 star and 6 GT5 gamers. It will be interesting to see how that works as David is driving in the real world live against GT5 drivers in the virtual world.

https://www.gtplanet.net/mercedes-live-race-gt5-competition-with-david-coulthard/
Click to expand...

Racing against real people isn't bad. The driving feel of the game is good & human opponents (if you choose them carefully) are exactly the kind of opponents you find on a real racing circuit from bangers, to karting to more serious forms of racing.

So I think when people are complaining about the racing (myself included) it is the offline, single player mode that is very poor. In essence it all boils down to a poor AI.

However the DC race should indeed be interesting. One thing GT5 is very good at is for time trialing. I hope they also take the opportunity to make DC do the same drive on GT5 to compare his real time with his GT5 time.
 
Maybe the driving is premium and the racing standard?

Stunned to find the top 25 PS3 games of all time? Number 1 is......... Duh, duh don don duuuuhhrr. ( IGN BTW)

It's obvious if you want a decent off line race against AI go elsewhere.

Online, if you can get it should be quite good.
 
Spagetti69
Maybe the driving is premium and the racing standard?
...
It's obvious if you want a decent off line race against AI go elsewhere.

Online, if you can get it should be quite good.
Click to expand...

Lol at (sub) standard v premium. A perfect analogy :)

But I don't see why it should be obvious that I have to go to another game for decent offline racing?

In the early days of GT5 development they said they would finally improve the AI. I think it has always been the biggest complaint about the GT series.

The problem is the physics has improved, the control system has improved but the AI has remained pretty much the same (I might be wearing pooh coloured glasses for that last remark though!) :sly:

[edit] Mulling it over a bit more, I recall that all previous GT's I used to race against friends in split screen mode. The only reason I played through the rest of the game was really for money & to buy cars. So in that respect I guess GT5 is much the same.

The difference is that we used to simplky copy my very full garage onto another memory card so we could race against each other in the same vehicle.

With GT5 there's no memory card and the moment they stopped the duping it became difficult for us to match vehicles online - they didn't like the offline grind (and nor did I, but at least it had a purpose) I have hardly played it since they stopped the duping.
 
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mr_serious
Lol at (sub) standard v premium. A perfect analogy :)

But I don't see why it should be obvious that I have to go to another game for decent offline racing?
Click to expand...

because this is crap.
 
Griffith500
I've played pretty much every modern and many older racing simulators, and yet I still come back to GT. I'm not saying it's a great racing simulator. I haven't come across one of those at all, AI is generally too slow without "cheating", and online racing doesn't expressly need a programmed framework to "work" (look at the online racing community for GT5) although it can obviously help.

No, GT offers something different. Do I wish it had more sim and racing elements to it? Of course, but I am rich in opportunities for that already. I just want everything under one roof, as is only human.

Also, I hated rFactor. ISI have a long way to go to impress me with rFactor 2. Funny, though, that ISI-derived sims such as the Race and GTR series are more palatable to me, despite being much less than perfect themselves, even in the physics department. Hell, even iRacing's physics are flawed (despite being excellent, of course.) Can't fault the racing, though. ;)
Click to expand...

I like rFactor much more than the SimBin titles. What I don't like about rFactor is the wheel support compared to the SimBin titles, that is why I play it on a keyboard instead and it is good fun from driving a bus to an F1 car around Suzuka. You can more or less download all the greatest tracks in the world or drive many seasons worth of F1 cars and such.

Anyway about OP saying PD would not consider such thing such as flat spotting, I disagree and I think they will maybe as soon as the next release. They are at the moment in the infancy stages with the current physics engines, you can tell due to what has been patched in and I'm sure they will build up on this base system.

They had racing flags in the GT Academy event before GT5 got released so they are probably trying to integrate everything once they do everything well. Maybe we also will get a wind tunnel too and also the ability to drive without overalls and in casual gear. The AI hopefully will get a big boost in future iterations, maybe even in GT5 but I think they have very few people working on this department and the number of people working on it should increase due to the new relocation.

Online is in its beginner stages too and I would like to see what they have up their sleeves in the feature update coming out soon. Maybe they are holding some big stuff back, like tracks in older GT games being put in like Pikes Peak and such. What I want PD to do is change the Arcade Mode so it works with leaderboards for all cars (at least premiums).

mr_serious
Racing against real people isn't bad. The driving feel of the game is good & human opponents (if you choose them carefully) are exactly the kind of opponents you find on a real racing circuit from bangers, to karting to more serious forms of racing.

So I think when people are complaining about the racing (myself included) it is the offline, single player mode that is very poor. In essence it all boils down to a poor AI.

However the DC race should indeed be interesting. One thing GT5 is very good at is for time trialing. I hope they also take the opportunity to make DC do the same drive on GT5 to compare his real time with his GT5 time.
Click to expand...

I wonder if the AI provides competitive racing for the more casual gamers who buy this game. I think it does as I've let people play the game with my wheel, some struggle to stay on the track while those that do get overtaken by the AI, which I can lap myself. This is not an excuse for the poor AI though, they should have difficulty levels and I guess they don't have that is because they can't really make the AI go much quicker without cheating. I like GT PSP better because the AI cheats, it keeps you on your toes all the time and gives the feeling of racing better even if the outcome is the same (Me Winning :sly:). Amazing they even decided to include a B Spec section as that shows you all the weaknesses of the AI.

DC could maybe have a ghost of him live in the game while driving using that Data Logger Visualization Technology maybe, hope it is not just separate screen as that is not really racing virtual and real at the same time, although a ghost is not that much better.
 
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Griffith500
Sure, but it's not The Real Racing Simulator, so the racing is bound to be sub-par. :sly:

Seriously, you're all as bad as each other. 👎
Click to expand...
That is, without a doubt, the dumbest thing I've heard all day.

But perhaps you're right, it's a driving simulator cleverly disguised as a racing game.
Now, strip it of it's title for "best selling racing franchise of all time" along with any other "racing" awards it has received, and maybe we can call it a day.

But to call a game, based 100% off racing, anything other than a racing game, is obnoxiously stupid.
It is a racing game, that is a fact, it is not up for debate, no preference, or opinion needed, Gran Turismo has always been racing games.
 
saidur_ali
I like rFactor much more than the SimBin titles. What I don't like about rFactor is the wheel support compared to the SimBin titles, that is why I play it on a keyboard instead and it is good fun from driving a bus to an F1 car around Suzuka. You can more or less download all the greatest tracks in the world or drive many seasons worth of F1 cars and such.

Anyway about OP saying PD would not consider such thing such as flat spotting, I disagree and I think they will maybe as soon as the next release. They are at the moment in the infancy stages with the current physics engines, you can tell due to what has been patched in and I'm sure they will build up on this base system.

They had racing flags in the GT Academy event before GT5 got released so they are probably trying to integrate everything once they do everything well. Maybe we also will get a wind tunnel too and also the ability to drive without overalls and in casual gear. The AI hopefully will get a big boost in future iterations, maybe even in GT5 but I think they have very few people working on this department and the number of people working on it should increase due to the new relocation.

Online is in its beginner stages too and I would like to see what they have up their sleeves in the feature update coming out soon. Maybe they are holding some big stuff back, like tracks in older GT games being put in like Pikes Peak and such. What I want PD to do is change the Arcade Mode so it works with leaderboards for all cars (at least premiums).
Click to expand...

Ah, yes, the mod community around rFactor is sizeable. But they're hardly putting out high quality mods all of the time. Most of it is utter tripe, whilst there are indeed a few shining stars (like the various F1 mods), which is to be expected. I meant in terms of its driving feel and "sim-ness", it's far from the best (except for some mods) and strangely false feeling, whilst the SimBin games are a bit more anal about the details, to the point you might think it was a "rules simulator". Which I suspect is the main argument of the thread.

rFactor 2's flat spotting and tyre wear "visualisation" (texture swapping, like the "motion-blurred" tyre treads in many games) are them playing catch-up to the slew of independent (and often free) sims that have been floating about for God knows how long. I just hope their weather simulation is up to snuff, which would imply their tyre model has been hugely overhauled to account for this. As I said, they've a lot of work to do to impress me yet. I hope they do.

As for GT, I think it will continue to lag behind the bleeding edge of sim-ness, but it's getting close to acceptable as a sim of sorts, if only it would offer more control. AI will never be what people want it to be, because to do so would be to create a human AI, or just "I". Again, control of difficulty and "sim-ness" is the key.

@CSLACR: What? Where did I say it wasn't a racing game? Who's stupid?
 
hamster1984
Codemasters, iracing, and rfactor truly put PD to shame when it comes to the racing side of things. Just check out this video, I feel 100% sure PD would never even consider this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZWeEoOxKKw&feature=youtu.be

More and more I'm starting to realize PD does not understand racing. No flags, no good damage, and bad AI that does not understand racing.

Anyone agree PD needs to better learn the difference between racing and simply driving?
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I would agree yes, Rfactor, Live for Speed, Race07 and GTR are all better racing sims than GT5 is, but oh well, GT5 still offers a nice amount of cars as standard, however, they should've made them all premium.. still a huge downside of the game
 
@CSLACR: What? Where did I say it wasn't a racing game? Who's stupid?
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Now now, I didn't call you stupid, just what you said.

It is a racing game
It is a driving simulator.

So is it a driving game or a racing simulator?
 

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