Sometimes I truly wish PD would learn how to make a racing sim....

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Ah, yes, the mod community around rFactor is sizeable. But they're hardly putting out high quality mods all of the time. Most of it is utter tripe, whilst there are indeed a few shining stars (like the various F1 mods), which is to be expected. I meant in terms of its driving feel and "sim-ness", it's far from the best (except for some mods) and strangely false feeling, whilst the SimBin games are a bit more anal about the details, to the point you might think it was a "rules simulator". Which I suspect is the main argument of the thread.

rFactor 2's flat spotting and tyre wear "visualisation" (texture swapping, like the "motion-blurred" tyre treads in many games) are them playing catch-up to the slew of independent (and often free) sims that have been floating about for God knows how long. I just hope their weather simulation is up to snuff, which would imply their tyre model has been hugely overhauled to account for this. As I said, they've a lot of work to do to impress me yet. I hope they do.

As for GT, I think it will continue to lag behind the bleeding edge of sim-ness, but it's getting close to acceptable as a sim of sorts, if only it would offer more control. AI will never be what people want it to be, because to do so would be to create a human AI, or just "I". Again, control of difficulty and "sim-ness" is the key.

@CSLACR: What? Where did I say it wasn't a racing game? Who's stupid?

The main car I drive is the BMW Sauber F1.07. That F1 car just feels right to drive and the handling characteristics are like what you see in the real world. That just so happens to be an official car so the user mods may not have the best physics but they do decently well, like driving a bus.

I think the flat-spotting is more than visual and maybe we will get vibrations through the steering wheel due to them. I'm impressed already with rFactor, just adding what they have so far with rFactor 2 and good plug and play wheel support from the start will have me sold. rFactor does have a lot of rules too. I personally don't like the feel of games such as GTR Evolution, it just not feel right to me, it feels disconnected at times. Could be just my wheel with this game.

What I like about GT is the fact that the majority of cars in the game handle like the real life version.You read review of cars and such and you can relate as you can feel the differences yourself in the game. I think you should be able to develop competitive AI without being groundbreaking as AI has the advantage of knowing directly how much steering input to put. rFactor when you press 'i' driving a F1 car is a good example of how the AI can drive fast by having ninja like reactions on braking, throttle and steering controls.
 
Makes enough sense. It's getting annoying.

Cars don't cost $50. The point of GT to let people experience cars and racing. If it fails at this, and the fans voice their disappointment, it's only natural. If you don't care about GT, stay silent about its flaws, but don't hinder the people trying to help the series.

GT4 was more hardcore than GT3, sells worse.
GT5 is even more hardcore on racing side (realistic), about all of you don't like it, sells worse than GT3.

It's not like I'm not agree with you. But PD know what they do. They created a history. Not like us.
By the way: waiting for GT6 then I'm done with GT.
There are numerous factors besides realism that could account for sales differences, like competitors for instance. And I don't think GT4 was all that much better than 3. 4 is probably the low point in the series.


Proof? I think there would be plenty of people that would dislike having the highest levels of realism. To make GT a racing simulation game with all the options and rules and penalties is a big change and I'm fairly sure that would disappoint some people.
Sure most people on GTP would like it, but there are others. There's a huge number of people that play GT for what it is now.
Yes, I do agree that they could add options so we can choose what way we want to play, but to say what PD is doing is wrong is just silly.
The game is what it is right now. Yes they could add other options to it, but that doesn't mean that what we have now is worse than what other games offer. Not for everybody anyway.

But offering the highest level of realism won't prevent people who want more arcady driving form having it their way. SRF is already in the game to satisfy arcade drivers.

Well exactly, I don't get why gamers are always so blind when it comes to this. I mean, do these people ask why BMW can't make a 2,000bhp M3? It's not because they don't know how!

GT5 isn't a 2000 hp M3. It's a M3 race car with aerodynamic parts that are only there for the visuals. I've already taken into account that it's going to take PD work to do something. But I don't accept lack of effort.

Resources are always limited, and I'm not talking about computational power.

Let's say, for example, that PD has X total man-hours available and they can choose to devote those man-hours to either exhaustively modeling tire deformation or to making a car look better on screen. Guess which one they're going to choose.

The man-hours required to model something like tire deformation are better "spent" in other areas for a mass-market game because the return on investment is better in those other areas. Exhaustive modeling of tire deformation may attract one or two people but better-looking cars will attract hundreds. Since they don't have unlimited programming resources, they have to concentrate on the areas that provide the greatest return.

Whether we like it or not, exhaustive, down-to-the-last-detail physics will never be what provides the greatest return to games like GT. iRacting, for example, boasts "over 25,000 members," tell me if you think that PD would be happy selling only 25,000 copies of GT5. Business concerns are always going to take precedence and this game will always be set up to a large degree for mass market. Sucks, but there it is.

First you can't pin iRacing's limited number of sales to physics alone.

Second I know that PD's time is limited. My main point was that PD would not need to remove arcady features from GT to increase the realism. Though to actually do this, they might need to drop certain things for the sake of time.

GT5's development didn't seem very efficient to me, though if PD were to explain in detail why everything took so long, I would listen.

may be you should then play iracing and rfactor then?

PD has different priorties. And after selling over 70 million games, i think they know where their market lies

One thing they teach in marketing is that when you're first in the business, you've got an advantage. PD captured the market with GT1, and that is part of the reason why it is so hugely successful.

GT5 is a decent game, but I don't think that PD put enough effort into it. They didn't have their priorities in line during development, they didn't make enough use of GT5P, and they weren't clear in their communication with fans. I'd bet they could have faired much better than they have.

If GT had those kind of physics, it wouldn't sell has much. Simple as that.

I really doubt it. It wouldn't be any harder to drive, and it would stop PD from adding driver aids and less complex physics models.

PD should really consider more expansive options. GT mode has always been set in stone, with no way to tailor the experience to the player. Why can't someone choose to have damage, or real grip reduction in A-Spec? It would let more people play as they want.

Look on the cover of your game. "The Real Driving Simulator"; not racing simulator. As stated in the post above, there is a difference.

The meaningless subtitle doesn't determine what the game is about.
 
Coming from a serious fan of rFactor & GT5 I'm not sure what the goal of this thread is. Both games are unique in their own way. I love rFactor for the constant new updates, sheer variety of cars & tracks.

And really you want to criticize GT5's AI??? Um, hello rFactor is known to have fairly poor AI. They bulldoze players left & right. This is a known fact. I play rFactor bout every other day. Granted, the AI is blazing fast. They are good in that aspect but they will smooth tackle ya. They basically drive like 'crashers' (you know those rude players online)

And look at rFactor 2. Granted I cant wait for that new tire model. But the graphics still look behind GT5. This makes no sense whatsoever. The PC can run laps around PS3. At least mine can in the graphics department. It's as if PC sim devs are allergic to making games with great graphics it seems lately

Both games have their strengths and weaknesses.

So um hello ISI (rFactor devs) please travel to Japan and learn from Polydigital how to make a great looking game. And sure, PD can learn some tips from ISI
 
Its one thing to have an opinion on something, and proving a point is good to, but a select few of you are being smart arses, it's one thing to have a debate, that's great, but some of you are over doing it.. Just saying
 
It's as if PC sim devs are allergic to making games with great graphics it seems lately

I kind of wish console games would catch that bug. Polygon count isn't really all that important.

As for the thread, it's not like people are asking GT to become rFactor, at least not everyone, but perhaps to provide options that let the gameplay lean more in that direction.
 
GT5 AI is not really bad just slow. Some reason console titles doesn't give gamers the options that PC sims do. Even RacePro had 5 AI settings (easy- very hard) compared to Race 07/On had 30 (80%-110%). There seem to be a rule to keep everything simple on console.

And really you want to criticize GT5's AI??? Um, hello rFactor is known to have fairly poor AI. They bulldoze players left & right. This is a known fact. I play rFactor bout every other day. Granted, the AI is blazing fast. They are good in that aspect but they will smooth tackle ya. They basically drive like 'crashers' (you know those rude players online)
There are too many combinations of tracks and cars for Rfactor AI to deal with unless it's fine tuned. A good example of what Rfactor AI is capable of try the Game Stock Car demo. I tried it recently and decide to buy it.
 
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I kind of wish console games would catch that bug. Polygon count isn't really all that important.

As for the thread, it's not like people are asking GT to become rFactor, at least not everyone, but perhaps to provide options that let the gameplay lean more in that direction.

It is for selling copies unfortunately. I'm tired of trying to persuade newbies to overlook rFactor's visuals to experience the great gameplay. Just other day I was trying to get this newbie to buy rfactor and he was asking why the graphics were so outdated. :indiff:

It's hard to persuade a newb to overlook that and just buy the game and get mods. Many of us know better but, how shall I say it- the innocent masses dont know any better. They need to see some shiny graphics to lure them in
 
Car modelers don't do the physics programming job.

But, strangely, the physics programmers still want to get paid too. And when the budget is only for a total of X man-hours for the entire project, real life business decisions still dictate making tradeoffs between the two.

The man-hour budget is constrained by money as well as time.
 
First you can't pin iRacing's limited number of sales to physics alone.

I didn't intend to do that and I apologize for being unclear. I simply meant to point out that when a game's chief draw is physics (I don't think anyone would argue that iRacing places a higher priority on physics than graphics, even though the graphics aren't "bad") the mass appeal is much lower than the mass appeal of a game with stunning visuals and "OK" physics. On a mass market game, when you're facing constraints (time, money, etc), it's the physics where it makes the most sense to settle for "good enough" because the volume market won't really notice those last little tweaks to the physics engine that would make it truly great.

Second I know that PD's time is limited. My main point was that PD would not need to remove arcady features from GT to increase the realism. Though to actually do this, they might need to drop certain things for the sake of time.

Agreed. With infinite time and money there's no technical reason why they couldn't implement an "expert" physics model that was user-selectable. Though, as always, more options means more potential for confusion. It's not an insurmountable obstacle, but it's a consideration.

Still, I understand what you're driving at as part of a wish list. I really just wanted to make the point that it's not a matter of just flipping a switch to enable features, something you obviously understand. :)

GT5's development didn't seem very efficient to me, though if PD were to explain in detail why everything took so long, I would listen.

100% agreed. It does seem as though PD got sidetracked a few times in the GT5 development.
 
PD is a competent lecturer for auto fans, no doubt.

Maybe the real race of GT is all about GT academy...

GT's AI is the most standard/safety way. I hope the next GT's AI is adjustable.
 
It's a driving game! It's not trying to be a racing simulator! You guys are all taking Space Mountain from Disneyland and giving it crap for not being Kingda Ka!

It's ridiculous! Just play something else if you're not going to try and make the best of this!

CSL, I've read your stuff and you've really got a good head about all of this 👍 Every one needs to chill and compromise.
 
What is this, a fairly civil discussion on GT Planet?? :lol:

While I disagree that GT5's physics are lacking and the AI is lame, I've been harping on adding in a number of PC sim features since 2005, when we were dream-listing features for the next GT. Honestly, I think physics just need some polish here and there, and the graphics just need the glitches fixed.

I would love to have a Season and Career Mode added to Arcade and GT Mode, based on a real world racing league, and give you a Livery Shop which you could use to design and paint up your own race car. Then you could go at it in the racing discipline of your choice, following the calendar and earning points to win the championship, just like a racing sim - or heck, go through an entire career!
 
It's a driving game! It's not trying to be a racing simulator! You guys are all taking Space Mountain from Disneyland and giving it crap for not being Kingda Ka!

It's ridiculous! Just play something else if you're not going to try and make the best of this!

CSL, I've read your stuff and you've really got a good head about all of this 👍 Every one needs to chill and compromise.

Last time I checked it clearly says "The real driving simulator" on my box and also whenever I start the game. It tries to simulate racing and does it pretty good, so to say it is just a game, to talk down the problems doesnt work.

Yesterday I loaded the latest patch and saw a more stable framerate and much less tearing. But there are still problems, like the PP-Points and other things.

PD tried the impossible and they wanted to put everything in. They worked hard, but they were not able to secure a complete release. The main problem is still the multiplayer, because the most people still drive their maxed out cars or red bull x1, veyron, minolta, etc. It is stupid, when a Audi TT is faster than a Zonda R. They needed classes like Forza so that you have something to start from, because the PP are not working properly.
 
There are pros and cons between GT5 and rFactor..

rFactor:
pros: Way better aids options, way more realistic
You can pretty much modify any car that you want in any way possible**
cons: Tires are annoying as hell (little choice) and sometimes the program is a little too unforgiving if one of your tires hits the grass, if the tires weren't programmed properly (some 3rd party downloaded cars tires suck)
car selection, there's only a certain amount of cars and then you are just lucky that they're programmed correctly.. a lot of them do have nice base settings though.
** The downside of modifying cars is that it's tedious as hell and in the end you are left with a perfect car but you're racing it by yourself against AI anyways unless you share it around on rfactorcentral

GT5:
pros: Easy to jump into and drive mostly any car as long as you set your mind to it
Decent tuning system
cars look fairly nice considering the amount of choice
cons: for the effort put into this game.. the cars seem lacking still somehow, especially missing manufacturers, and cars of the same class from other engine manufacturers.
Driving on grass/offroad has no bumpiness to it really..
There's so many rally cars and they didn't even include pikes peak.. wtf?
Lack of cars from manufacturers they DO have on board.. there's not enough ferraris (348, 360)
Livery editor treats us like we wouldn't know how to modify texture files. Psh
No rewind/fastforward in replays.

So yeah.. I also kind of wish that the makers of GT5 would go look at other games (rFactor especially). However it would have been nice if GT5 had all manufacturers on board with their game's creation. Porsche kind of screwed them a lot. The livery editor is lacking pretty bad in GT5, but only for the amount of choice that you would think that you would be able to have in a game that has so much to offer. After all the way a car looks is part of making it unique.. They could have at least given us the ability to race mod more cars so we can at least have numbers on the side of our windows, but I guess we're not good enough for that.
 
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For crying out loud!
Yes its a racing game, but its a driving simulator first on! It doesnt have flags, teams, pace cars, good ai.. But what it dose have is the closest feeling you can get to how the car feels to drive when you put it to its limits you can get in a videogame! Specially with this huge amount of choices in the form of tracks and auto-mobiles.

Stop puting your heads in the sand. You all know what gt is all about. And if you dont then maybe you should move on and switch to a RACING simulator!
 
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I refer you to my earlier post

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5819278#post5819278

Reset your save and just drive, see how much fun you have

Your post is nullified by one very important fact:

GT5 only simulates road cars well.

Everything else is just there, pretty much as a tribute to car culture as a whole.

GT5 does regular, every day, road cars better than most other titles that strive to simulate race cars.

A regular GT5 road car on comforts or sports is really where the game shines. That's why it's a driving simulator, because it simulates cars we drive every day and gives us the extra fun of being able to take those cars out to crazy locations, different race tracks, or put against other cars you'd never be able to before.

It's pretty simple really. The game you're talking about in that post in more like a sad attempt at Grand Theft Auto civilian roleplaying or something.
 
Your post is nullified by one very important fact:

It's pretty simple really. The game you're talking about in that post in more like a sad attempt at Grand Theft Auto civilian roleplaying or something.

No the game I was talking about in that thread was a brand new game of GT5, but without doing any racing.

Did you read it at all?

As I said try it yourself and see how much driving you can do without racing.

GT is a racing game first & foremost or there would be some non-racing content for those of you who just want to 'drive'

Or instead of posting non-sequiturs in threads criticising GT5 you could post a complaint about the complainers in this thread
 
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Now now, I didn't call you stupid, just what you said.

It is a racing game
It is a driving simulator.

So is it a driving game or a racing simulator?

What are you on about? I never said it wasn't a racing game. Is this how all your arguments start?

It's been the real driving simulator since the original, but in no way was that the case at that time. It's marketing. That's why it's folly. We'll be discussing whether driving a Peugeot 407 SW really is "the drive of your life" next. :rolleyes:
In the context of this thread, we should be discussing the game for what it is, not what the marketing department was trying to sell to the casual buyer in the supermarket. Marketing is a messed up thing when it comes to games, sure, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.
The main car I drive is the BMW Sauber F1.07. That F1 car just feels right to drive and the handling characteristics are like what you see in the real world. That just so happens to be an official car so the user mods may not have the best physics but they do decently well, like driving a bus.

I think the flat-spotting is more than visual and maybe we will get vibrations through the steering wheel due to them. I'm impressed already with rFactor, just adding what they have so far with rFactor 2 and good plug and play wheel support from the start will have me sold. rFactor does have a lot of rules too. I personally don't like the feel of games such as GTR Evolution, it just not feel right to me, it feels disconnected at times. Could be just my wheel with this game.

What I like about GT is the fact that the majority of cars in the game handle like the real life version.You read review of cars and such and you can relate as you can feel the differences yourself in the game. I think you should be able to develop competitive AI without being groundbreaking as AI has the advantage of knowing directly how much steering input to put. rFactor when you press 'i' driving a F1 car is a good example of how the AI can drive fast by having ninja like reactions on braking, throttle and steering controls.

Ah, I gave up before getting as far as unlocking the F1. I'm sure I could have "cheated" to get it, though. I was under the impression that the flatspotting isn't visual at all, just the "tyre wear" is. I surely hope they do it properly, LFS's system isn't bad for instance, but it has its quirks and doesn't cause vibration anymore. I know what you mean about the disconnected feel of GTR Evo (the best car for me is the Caterham), but the apparent connectedness in rFactor feels false, because of the way it reacts to the road surface incongruously to what the wheel is telling you it is. It might all just be the result of an overly forgiving tyre model. Or, yes, the wheel support; rFactor's force feedback doesn't get on with my G25, but SimBin games do. :odd:

As for AI, that's precisely what I meant by cheating ;)
AI will always be a disappointment to some people, either because it's too aggressive, too fast, too slow etc. The AI in GPL are pretty intelligent in some ways, uterly stupid in others and are incredibly quick for most people (i.e. not "aliens"), but it's all a big cheat (understandable for the time).
 
"The Real Driving Simulator" is an all encompassing tagline that describes the spirit of the game.

And yes, because it's a game that has cars in it, there will be racing, but that's not the series's absolute focus. Again, the idea of a the tagline's meant to communicate that the game simulates regular road cars you and I can realistically own better than anything else in it.

Its effectiveness in simulating cars, and thus racing them, falls flat after you go past tin-top race cars (which are still ok - when talking raceability) and get into heavily aero-dependent cars. GT's spotlight on the car world is quite large. It tries to include everything, racing will always be a big part of it and that's what's fun about having a car in a video game is getting to race or thrash it around.

The fun of GT is racing first and foremost, not what GT is. GT can be enjoyed in a lot of different ways.

You're just sensationalizing some poor chap's ill-defined interpretation of the tag line. We're not literally saying it's a commuter simulator. It's a car simulator that models "people" cars best and allows us the enjoyment of being able to race them .

Edit to add:
Racing is just not GT5's strongest suite. Racing A.I? Please. Racing people in public lobbies randomly? meh, unless you like having to constantly watch your back for punters. Look, I've raced online in race leagues/series organized here on GTP since launch and have never had more fun with GT. While GT5 isn't the best racing sim. it does give us enough tools in order to make the best racing simulation we possibly can. It's a hard fight sometimes, getting good racing out of GT's, sometimes, limited structure but when it works, it's awesome. And it's because of the large selection of cars that we're always able to find something new as well.

But, now that I think of it, most of the people that talk to me about a series of tight knit racers always remark most about how fun the car was to drive. The characteristic of the car in the game is what the big highlight is and how we choose which ones to race against each other. It's about the cars really, and the ones PD does best are street cars that are enormous fun to run at the limit.
 
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"The Real Driving Simulator" is an all encompassing tagline that describes the spirit of the game.

And yes, because it's a game that has cars in it, there will be racing, but that's not the series's absolute focus. Again, the idea of a the tagline's meant to communicate that the game simulates regular road cars you and I can realistically own better than anything else in it.

Its effectiveness in simulating cars, and thus racing them, falls flat after you go past tin-top race cars (which are still ok - when talking raceability) and get into heavily aero-dependent cars. GT's spotlight on the car world is quite large. It tries to include everything, racing will always be a big part of it and that's what's fun about having a car in a video game is getting to race or thrash it around.

The fun of GT is racing first and foremost, not what GT is. GT can be enjoyed in a lot of different ways.

You're just sensationalizing some poor chap's ill-defined interpretation of the tag line. We're not literally saying it's a commuter simulator. It's a car simulator that models "people" cars best and allows us the enjoyment of being able to race them .

That poor chap was you.
You said....
Wardez
It's a driving game! It's not trying to be a racing simulator! You guys are all taking Space Mountain from Disneyland and giving it crap for not being Kingda Ka!

My post was in response to your original specious comment which was not a valid counterpoint to the OPs desire that GT5 provided better (presumably offline) racing.

Because you cannot play the game except in the most trivial fashion without being forced to do some racing as demonstrated in my earlier post, PD meant it to be a racing game. It also happens to be nice to drive, but it is not as good a racing game as it could or should have been.
 
I wasn't replying to the OP's observations. Just the mindset of someone who tries to pin up GT5 as a racing simulator and perceive as a failure as a result. It's like dressing up someone as Spiderman and telling them they're the worst super hero ever.

Yes, you can't have a driving game without racing, because that's the fun part about getting to choose from so many cars in a game, as I've said. But do you understand what my interpretation of the tag line is? That it's, in a way, implying what type of cars PD's focused on recreating the best.

Edited in to my last post:

Edit to add:
Racing is just not GT5's strongest suite. Racing A.I? Please. Racing people in public lobbies randomly? meh, unless you like having to constantly watch your back for punters. Look, I've raced online in race leagues/series organized here on GTP since launch and have never had more fun with GT. While GT5 isn't the best racing sim. it does give us enough tools in order to make the best racing simulation we possibly can. It's a hard fight sometimes, getting good racing out of GT's, sometimes, limited structure but when it works, it's awesome. And it's because of the large selection of cars that we're always able to find something new as well.

But, now that I think of it, most of the people that talk to me about a series of tight knit racers always remark most about how fun the car was to drive. The characteristic of the car in the game is what the big highlight is and how we choose which ones to race against each other. It's about the cars really, and the ones PD does best are street cars that are enormous fun to run at the limit.
 
"The real driving simulator"... Brahahahahahahhaha
...
Brahahahahhahahahaha.

They should rename that slogan to "The real car advertisement simulator".

It's even worse as a driving simulator than a racing simulator. You can't exactly use it to test drive a car before you buy the real thing. You can't go on a cross country road trip. You can't have a dead battery at night in pouring rain, in the middle of nowhere.

C'mon people, all the tracks are closed circuits. It's a racing game no matter how blind you are. Only losers fail at something and then pretend it was something else.
 
Well, I was wrong. As usual on GT Planet these days, the thread devolves into time wasting bickering. I guess I'll drink some more coffee and get back to writing... and some GT5 racing this afternoon!

I have to wonder though at the fans of rFactor. I much prefer GTR or LFS as far as feeling the car goes. rF seems like a 90s racer in which the (fantasy) car is bobbing on a spindle while the world rotates around beneath it. Maybe rF2 will fix that.
 
For crying out loud!
Yes its a racing game, but its a driving simulator first on! It doesnt have flags, teams, pace cars, good ai.. But what it dose have is the simulation of how the car feels to drive when you put it to its limits!

Stop puting your heads in the sand. You all know what gt is all about. And if you dont then maybe you should move on and switch to a RACING simulator!

I'll try to keep it simple:
No.
 
ffs why is this always the line that gets spat out when someone has something bad to say about gt5 ffs
people are trying to make it better for everyone and themselves if you think it's perfect then cool but imagine it with all the things, features thats should, could and maybe in the game!!!!!!!

It's obvious you haven't been here at GTPlanet long, so I'll make this brief. As Tenacious D pointed out, nothing ANYONE is saying is anything new.

It's the same thing. Over and over again. People could find this very topic in one of the 'criticism' threads if they simply put the site search engine to use.

It's why I say to these same rinse and repeat threads such as this, 'move along'.:dunce:
 
you can't have a driving game without racing.

Of course you can. GTA is a better driving game than GT in a way. You get to drive around a city where ever you want, or drive winding mountain roads with nice scenery. If GT was just about driving, PD would have focused on that.

"The Real Driving Simulator" doesn't really mean anything. It's marketing. Have you seen the simulator section of the Playstation Store? There's a Top Gun game in there.

As for GT focusing on road cars, I doubt it. GT simulates everything in it equally well. Road cars don't have a tire model any better than race cars. You can drive a stock Mini that somehow holds 1g of lateral grip. Some road cars have blatantly wrong stats, and AWD - which is mostly a road car thing - still seems to be a bit overpowered. And not only have the race cars been present since GT1, but the biggest races in the game have always revolved around them.

Well, I was wrong. As usual on GT Planet these days, the thread devolves into time wasting bickering. I guess I'll drink some more coffee and get back to writing... and some GT5 racing this afternoon!

I don't see what changed. Discussion isn't a bad thing.
 

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