Ah, yes, the mod community around rFactor is sizeable. But they're hardly putting out high quality mods all of the time. Most of it is utter tripe, whilst there are indeed a few shining stars (like the various F1 mods), which is to be expected. I meant in terms of its driving feel and "sim-ness", it's far from the best (except for some mods) and strangely false feeling, whilst the SimBin games are a bit more anal about the details, to the point you might think it was a "rules simulator". Which I suspect is the main argument of the thread.
rFactor 2's flat spotting and tyre wear "visualisation" (texture swapping, like the "motion-blurred" tyre treads in many games) are them playing catch-up to the slew of independent (and often free) sims that have been floating about for God knows how long. I just hope their weather simulation is up to snuff, which would imply their tyre model has been hugely overhauled to account for this. As I said, they've a lot of work to do to impress me yet. I hope they do.
As for GT, I think it will continue to lag behind the bleeding edge of sim-ness, but it's getting close to acceptable as a sim of sorts, if only it would offer more control. AI will never be what people want it to be, because to do so would be to create a human AI, or just "I". Again, control of difficulty and "sim-ness" is the key.
@CSLACR: What? Where did I say it wasn't a racing game? Who's stupid?
Makes enough sense. It's getting annoying.
There are numerous factors besides realism that could account for sales differences, like competitors for instance. And I don't think GT4 was all that much better than 3. 4 is probably the low point in the series.GT4 was more hardcore than GT3, sells worse.
GT5 is even more hardcore on racing side (realistic), about all of you don't like it, sells worse than GT3.
It's not like I'm not agree with you. But PD know what they do. They created a history. Not like us.
By the way: waiting for GT6 then I'm done with GT.
Proof? I think there would be plenty of people that would dislike having the highest levels of realism. To make GT a racing simulation game with all the options and rules and penalties is a big change and I'm fairly sure that would disappoint some people.
Sure most people on GTP would like it, but there are others. There's a huge number of people that play GT for what it is now.
Yes, I do agree that they could add options so we can choose what way we want to play, but to say what PD is doing is wrong is just silly.
The game is what it is right now. Yes they could add other options to it, but that doesn't mean that what we have now is worse than what other games offer. Not for everybody anyway.
Well exactly, I don't get why gamers are always so blind when it comes to this. I mean, do these people ask why BMW can't make a 2,000bhp M3? It's not because they don't know how!
Resources are always limited, and I'm not talking about computational power.
Let's say, for example, that PD has X total man-hours available and they can choose to devote those man-hours to either exhaustively modeling tire deformation or to making a car look better on screen. Guess which one they're going to choose.
The man-hours required to model something like tire deformation are better "spent" in other areas for a mass-market game because the return on investment is better in those other areas. Exhaustive modeling of tire deformation may attract one or two people but better-looking cars will attract hundreds. Since they don't have unlimited programming resources, they have to concentrate on the areas that provide the greatest return.
Whether we like it or not, exhaustive, down-to-the-last-detail physics will never be what provides the greatest return to games like GT. iRacting, for example, boasts "over 25,000 members," tell me if you think that PD would be happy selling only 25,000 copies of GT5. Business concerns are always going to take precedence and this game will always be set up to a large degree for mass market. Sucks, but there it is.
may be you should then play iracing and rfactor then?
PD has different priorties. And after selling over 70 million games, i think they know where their market lies
If GT had those kind of physics, it wouldn't sell has much. Simple as that.
Look on the cover of your game. "The Real Driving Simulator"; not racing simulator. As stated in the post above, there is a difference.
It's as if PC sim devs are allergic to making games with great graphics it seems lately
There are too many combinations of tracks and cars for Rfactor AI to deal with unless it's fine tuned. A good example of what Rfactor AI is capable of try the Game Stock Car demo. I tried it recently and decide to buy it.And really you want to criticize GT5's AI??? Um, hello rFactor is known to have fairly poor AI. They bulldoze players left & right. This is a known fact. I play rFactor bout every other day. Granted, the AI is blazing fast. They are good in that aspect but they will smooth tackle ya. They basically drive like 'crashers' (you know those rude players online)
I kind of wish console games would catch that bug. Polygon count isn't really all that important.
As for the thread, it's not like people are asking GT to become rFactor, at least not everyone, but perhaps to provide options that let the gameplay lean more in that direction.
Car modelers don't do the physics programming job.
First you can't pin iRacing's limited number of sales to physics alone.
Second I know that PD's time is limited. My main point was that PD would not need to remove arcady features from GT to increase the realism. Though to actually do this, they might need to drop certain things for the sake of time.
GT5's development didn't seem very efficient to me, though if PD were to explain in detail why everything took so long, I would listen.
It's a driving game! It's not trying to be a racing simulator! You guys are all taking Space Mountain from Disneyland and giving it crap for not being Kingda Ka!
It's ridiculous! Just play something else if you're not going to try and make the best of this!
CSL, I've read your stuff and you've really got a good head about all of this 👍 Every one needs to chill and compromise.
It's a driving game! It's not trying to be a racing simulator! You guys are all taking Space Mountain from Disneyland and giving it crap for not being Kingda Ka!
I refer you to my earlier post
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5819278#post5819278
Reset your save and just drive, see how much fun you have
Your post is nullified by one very important fact:
It's pretty simple really. The game you're talking about in that post in more like a sad attempt at Grand Theft Auto civilian roleplaying or something.
Now now, I didn't call you stupid, just what you said.
It is a racing game
It is a driving simulator.
So is it a driving game or a racing simulator?
The main car I drive is the BMW Sauber F1.07. That F1 car just feels right to drive and the handling characteristics are like what you see in the real world. That just so happens to be an official car so the user mods may not have the best physics but they do decently well, like driving a bus.
I think the flat-spotting is more than visual and maybe we will get vibrations through the steering wheel due to them. I'm impressed already with rFactor, just adding what they have so far with rFactor 2 and good plug and play wheel support from the start will have me sold. rFactor does have a lot of rules too. I personally don't like the feel of games such as GTR Evolution, it just not feel right to me, it feels disconnected at times. Could be just my wheel with this game.
What I like about GT is the fact that the majority of cars in the game handle like the real life version.You read review of cars and such and you can relate as you can feel the differences yourself in the game. I think you should be able to develop competitive AI without being groundbreaking as AI has the advantage of knowing directly how much steering input to put. rFactor when you press 'i' driving a F1 car is a good example of how the AI can drive fast by having ninja like reactions on braking, throttle and steering controls.
"The Real Driving Simulator" is an all encompassing tagline that describes the spirit of the game.
And yes, because it's a game that has cars in it, there will be racing, but that's not the series's absolute focus. Again, the idea of a the tagline's meant to communicate that the game simulates regular road cars you and I can realistically own better than anything else in it.
Its effectiveness in simulating cars, and thus racing them, falls flat after you go past tin-top race cars (which are still ok - when talking raceability) and get into heavily aero-dependent cars. GT's spotlight on the car world is quite large. It tries to include everything, racing will always be a big part of it and that's what's fun about having a car in a video game is getting to race or thrash it around.
The fun of GT is racing first and foremost, not what GT is. GT can be enjoyed in a lot of different ways.
You're just sensationalizing some poor chap's ill-defined interpretation of the tag line. We're not literally saying it's a commuter simulator. It's a car simulator that models "people" cars best and allows us the enjoyment of being able to race them .
WardezIt's a driving game! It's not trying to be a racing simulator! You guys are all taking Space Mountain from Disneyland and giving it crap for not being Kingda Ka!
For crying out loud!
Yes its a racing game, but its a driving simulator first on! It doesnt have flags, teams, pace cars, good ai.. But what it dose have is the simulation of how the car feels to drive when you put it to its limits!
Stop puting your heads in the sand. You all know what gt is all about. And if you dont then maybe you should move on and switch to a RACING simulator!
ffs why is this always the line that gets spat out when someone has something bad to say about gt5 ffs
people are trying to make it better for everyone and themselves if you think it's perfect then cool but imagine it with all the things, features thats should, could and maybe in the game!!!!!!!
you can't have a driving game without racing.
Well, I was wrong. As usual on GT Planet these days, the thread devolves into time wasting bickering. I guess I'll drink some more coffee and get back to writing... and some GT5 racing this afternoon!