2012 European Grand Prix

F1 fan

Well as I'm essentially arguing the same point as HFS. I wondered why you only take issue with what I say. But then again, he's your buddy, and I obviously hate Hamilton enough to place all the blame on him. At least, that's what you'd think by reading your post.

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And I quote.

F1 fan

Don't make assumptions.

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👍

DaxCobra

Well you have made it obvious that you do hate Hamilton before today.

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Yes. That is true. But what is also evident from my posts in this thread is that I wasn't blaming him for the incident. Merely saying that he could have executed some preservation and came home fourth.

dhandes

And I quote.



👍

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So why did you only take issue with what I was saying and not HFS?

FranciscoJR

You guys have your opinions and i have mine. I think that by looking closely u will clearly see that both drivers are side by side and hamilton slowly pushing him away from the track vecause he knows that following turn will come and Maldonado will take the position away from him so what he did and he does this alot, throws the car into him to defend and he got that, kiss the wall. He did to massa and other drivers and he continues to do it. Finally a driver stepped up and put a no more into this. I like Hamilton a lot but he keeps driving dirty to defend and this time it didnt go his way.

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The racing line for the corner in question isn't the line that Hamilton took.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo2Ou0M7de4&feature=player_detailpage#t=61s

Hamilton was right up against the white line on the exit, giving Maldonado no choice but to go off-track. Maldonado was marginally ahead in the braking zone, making them wheel to wheel on turn in.



Pause at 0:04 to see that Maldonado is ahead, but Hamilton had the corner.

Pause at 0:06-0:07 to see that Hamilton squeezed Maldonado off the track.

Pause at 0:08 to see that Maldonado begins to turn left but the floor is on the kerb and he goes straight on into Hamilton.

No question, it was Maldonado's fault ultimately. But to say that Hamilton was blameless is idiotic. He wasn't on the usual racing line, he squeezed Maldonado off the track by going wide instead of leaving room as is not only the normal racing line in this corner, but also the etiquette for wheel to wheel racing (Which Hamilton did excellently with Webber last year in Korea). Here he drove Maldonado straight off the track, after blocking him at the beginning of the preceding straight (Which the BBC footage conveniently doesn't show on the replay, instead it shows a wall - I will post up when the full race footage is available if anybody likes)

Shaggy Alonso

Hey, you stole my post!

I was exactly the same (only my dad wasn't in the room). Karma I guess for me jumping around the room when Vettel DNF'd. As it turns out it wasn't Maldonado or Hamilton's fault for any of this, it was mine!

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Yeah, I punched the air many times, I noticed Vettel had a problem way before the commentators, I saw the silver helmet at the side of the road, cars flooding past and I shouted YESSS

My dad was like "Lulwut? Oh. YESSSS!!"

Hamilton used the driving line..maldonado should have yeilded BEFORE the corner!

Seismica

The racing line for the corner in question isn't the line that Hamilton took.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo2Ou0M7de4&feature=player_detailpage#t=61s

Hamilton was right up against the white line on the exit, giving Maldonado no choice but to go off-track. Maldonado was marginally ahead in the braking zone, making them wheel to wheel on turn in.



Pause at 0:04 to see that Maldonado is ahead, but Hamilton had the corner.

Pause at 0:06-0:07 to see that Hamilton squeezed Maldonado off the track.

Pause at 0:08 to see that Maldonado begins to turn left but the floor is on the kerb and he goes straight on into Hamilton.

No question, it was Maldonado's fault ultimately. But to say that Hamilton was blameless is idiotic. He wasn't on the usual racing line, he squeezed Maldonado off the track by going wide instead of leaving room as is the etiquette for wheel to wheel racing (Which Hamilton did excellently with Webber last year in Korea). Here he drove Maldonado straight off the track, after blocking him at the beginning of the preceding straight (Which the BBC footage conveniently doesn't show on the replay, instead it shows a wall - I will post up when the full race footage is available if anybody likes)

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This is all a bit academic, and missing the point. Brainiac Maldonado had the opportunity to take to the runoff area and pass Hamilton easily at pretty much any point of his choosing after that, but instead clouted into him, ending his own race.

Sorry for double posting but I really want an answer. Why has fox decided to air the race at 12:00, 4 hours after it starts?!?!?!?

F1 fan

So why did you only take issue with what I was saying and not HFS?

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Woah there! HFS posts aren't as confrontational as yours.

Two questions.

1, At what point of that incident could Hamilton have done something differently?

2, At what point of that incident could Maldonado have done something differently?

dhandes

I wonder what the opinions here would be if the roles were reversed?

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Mine wouldn't change. The car in Maldonado's position would still be at fault for coming from off-track to hit another, the car in Hamilton's position would still receive my disapproval for losing everything when it'd have made more sense to settle for a few points less.

Tired Tyres

Those of us with eyes would be castigating Hamilton for taking another car out.

Fanboys on the other hand will always say their guy was in the right.

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Or, if you're not idiotically tarring everyone in this debate with the same brush, you could accept that there's more than one viewpoint out there and some of us have tried to explain it in hilariously simple terms.

Personally I care for neither Hamilton nor Maldonado (in fact, I find it a great pity that Maldonado is clearly talented, as in every other respect he's a waste of space), so I'm effectively neutral here. However, I'm not too blind to see that Hamilton lost far more points than he needed to at Valencia.

Jsoccer9

Sorry for double posting but I really want an answer. Why has fox decided to air the race at 12:00, 4 hours after it starts?!?!?!?

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We don't know.

Asking us several times won't get the answer you're looking for.

Seismica

The racing line for the corner in question isn't the line that Hamilton took.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo2Ou0M7de4&feature=player_detailpage#t=61s

Hamilton was right up against the white line on the exit, giving Maldonado no choice but to go off-track. Maldonado was marginally ahead in the braking zone, making them wheel to wheel on turn in.



Pause at 0:04 to see that Maldonado is ahead, but Hamilton had the corner.

Pause at 0:06-0:07 to see that Hamilton squeezed Maldonado off the track.

Pause at 0:08 to see that Maldonado begins to turn left but the floor is on the kerb and he goes straight on into Hamilton.

No question, it was Maldonado's fault ultimately. But to say that Hamilton was blameless is idiotic. He wasn't on the usual racing line, he squeezed Maldonado off the track by going wide instead of leaving room as is not only the normal racing line in this corner, but also the etiquette for wheel to wheel racing (Which Hamilton did excellently with Webber last year in Korea). Here he drove Maldonado straight off the track, after blocking him at the beginning of the preceding straight (Which the BBC footage conveniently doesn't show on the replay, instead it shows a wall - I will post up when the full race footage is available if anybody likes)

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Still think Grosjean made it further, which made it impossible for Hamilton to defend as he legitimately and legaly did with Maldonado.

Wow, four years of processional durges and then Valencia rubs out a race like that! Sensational!

Alonso - I fear he may on his way to his 3rd championship, he's in the zone...when everyone else screws up.

Raikkonen - Shame he couldn't catch Alonso, he'll have a victory at some point.

Schumacher - Welcome back to the (provisional) podium.

Webber - Not bad, thank you for not passing Michael.

Hulkenberg - First noticeable performance of the season.

Rosberg - Good run at the end.

di Resta - Ambitious strategy, you're not Perez yet!

Button - Another average performance.

Perez - Good climb back up, needs to win a race soon.

Maldonado - Bit ambitious, don't expect to keep this point.

Senna - Average, ruined Kobayashi's race.

Ricciardo - Good defence after the restart.

Caterhams - I think a point is just around the corner, when they keep out of trouble.

Pic - Stayed ahead of the HRTs, just work on the passing.

HRTs - They need a better car, or maybe better drivers.

Massa - You're time is up. Unacceptable performances as of late.

Hamilton - Pace wasn't there, shouldn't have really bothered to defend with tyres like that, as we're all well aware of what happens.

Vettel and Grosjean - Totally unfair. Would have been happy to see either of these guys win.

Kobayashi - More silly mistakes and generally poor pace messing things up.

Vergne - Thank you for the Safety Car.

Maldonado is like the average idiot you come up against online in F1 2011. Hence why Hamilton shouldn't have risked anything against him at all. It's all well and good knowing he's 'in the right', but it doesn't help his championship, does it?

Shaggy Alonso

Because it was blatantly obvious? Do some things so basic really need explaining? When you're 5.3 seconds off the pace and getting slower then yes it is safe to assume you are not going to be able to defend your position from cars with grip still in their tyres.

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No it's not "blatantly" obvious.

It "basically" takes more than just fresher tyres to pass a car in front of you that's off the pace.

Do i really need to explain to you that it takes some skill in clean over-taking as well ?... something which Maldonado clearly seems to be lacking.

PeterJB

Massa - You're time is up. Unacceptable performances as of late.
.

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He was doing ok before the damage.

dhandes

Woah there!

Two questions.

1, At what point of that incident could Hamilton have done something differently?

2, At what point of that incident could Maldonado have done something differently?

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1. Defending a position he was obviously going to lose. I never said he was obligated to give it up, but seeing how things turned out, fourth was preferable.

2. Obviously, Maldonado could have stuck to the run off. I'm not blaming Hamilton for this incident, but as I and many others have said, had he realized it was a lost cause, he would have finished fourth.

Which leads me back to my point. I share the same opinion as HFS. Granted, he worded it better. He is a journalist after all. When he says it, no problem. When I say it, "Burn the witch" you immediately assumed the worst. What is your explanation for that?

At 1ness

No it's not "blatantly" obvious.

It "basically" takes more than just fresher tyres to pass a car in front of you that's off the pace.

Do i really need to explain to you that it takes some skill in clean over-taking as well ?... something which Maldonado clearly seems to be lacking.

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Mate, are you actually suggesting Hamilton had a hope of keeping Maldonado behind, when he's going up to 5 seconds per lap slower, and visibly had zero traction coming out of each corner? That Maldonado was going to get past one way or another is a formality. This shouldn't even be up for debate. Astonishing 👎

Shaggy Alonso

Dude, those weren't just a few out of shape moments defending, that was a complete loss of traction and grip. His penultimate lap was a full 5.3s slower than his fastest, and 3 seconds slower than Maldonado on the same lap. That is not recoverable, that is the cliff.

http://mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=871&graf=3&dr1=Lewis Hamilton&dr2=Pastor Maldonado

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You fail to understand why he was off the pace, he made a mistake on the lap and was defending against Kimi or was Kimi way off the pace as well and on the cliff due to fighting it out with Hamilton for second place.

If Hamilton had such poor grip, why could he brake so well to defend against Maldonado who also had the DRS to try and come past Lewis who just got overtaken by Kimi a few moments earlier. Lewis was struggling for traction as he had to drive ragged to defend against Kimi after making a mistake and Pastor closed up straight away and Hamitlon had to again drive ragged to stay ahead.

He would probably have lapped about a second slower than Maldonado with his overheated tyres as he still had the grip to keep Maldonado at bay even when Maldonado had the DRS. Imagine how hard Maldonado would have found it with no DRS and Hamilton still being able to brake late as him and Hamilton being a second or two ahead with one lap to go due to letting Hamilton through. That is why Maldonado must have tried to pass Lewis as he might have known, he won't be able to be in a passing position in time due to time lost letting Hamilton through.

Shaggy Alonso

This is all a bit academic, and missing the point. Brainiac Maldonado had the opportunity to take to the runoff area and pass Hamilton easily at pretty much any point of his choosing after that, but instead clouted into him, ending his own race.

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Hamilton had the opportunity to leave enough room to avoid a crash and still have the inside for the right hander that followed (The one immediately after the left hander). It goes both ways.

The point of that post was to dismiss the argument that Hamilton was on the racing line, which he wasn't, he was taking a defensive line which forced Maldonado off the track. Maldonado didn't act as he should have but why did Hamilton not give him room where other drivers (Alonso, Button etc.) would have? It's something that lacks in Hamilton's racecraft; his judgement of how another driver will react, his willingness to concede in a fight he wasn't going to win to make sure he bags valuable points when his main rival (Vettel) was out of the race.

Again, Maldonado will most likely get a penalty, but a better driver in Hamilton's position would have finished 4th. It's this sort of aggressive driving that put him so far behind in 2010, and attracted so much critiscism in 2011. Just because he was defending doesn't mean he can ignore on-track driver etiquette.

hornet_burnout

Still think Grosjean made it further, which made it impossible for Hamilton to defend as he legitimately and legaly did with Maldonado.

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👍

That's fair, Grosjean was able to carry more speed, allowing him to stay alongside through the apex - he was indeed further ahead (But crucially, still behind Hamilton on the exit). I thought perhaps Hamilton squeezed more on the entry and/or turn in later in the Maldonado incident, but it was only the exit that was different. In both cases they were still wheel to wheel with Hamilton marginally ahead on the exit though, it's just Hamilton was able to push Maldonado further wide.

I think the blame almost entirely falls with Maldonado but I am dead certain that if it had been anyone else of the top drivers but Hamilton in the same spot, that accident would not have happened.

This is my 2p on the Hamilton - Ginsters incident after looking at replays on board Ginsters car and the camera in front of the right hander. Ginsters pulls out of the slipstream for braking to try and overtake on the outside of the right hander. He gets no more than the length from the nose to the front wheels ahead under braking. The only thing is that he is compromised for the perfect line around the right hander.

Lewis then gets back ahead because he has the best racing line around the turn. At the apex of the turn Lewis is back ahead although by less than what Ginsters was ahead earlier in the incident. Once Lewis has passed the apex he gains more than a quarter of the length of the car ahead by using all of the track to get a good run for the left hander.

At this point I believe Ginsters should have backed out of the move as it was impossible to overtake. He continues with the move anyway even though he is off the track when Lewis has done his turning right. When he attempts to get back on track he is turning right still when Lewis is trying to take the apex to the left hander while still slightly behind Lewis. He then starts to turn left while still of the track fully and still behind Lewis and slams into Lewis. I actually believe he would have done well to avoid the wall if Lewis wasn't there because of the line he took.

At 1ness

No it's not "blatantly" obvious.

It "basically" takes more than just fresher tyres to pass a car in front of you that's off the pace.

Do i really need to explain to you that it takes some skill in clean over-taking as well ?... something which Maldonado clearly seems to be lacking.

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Seems like you just closing your ears with your hands and screaming "NANANNANANNANANAAAAAAAA"

Micheal Schumacher kept everyone behind him when his tyres were FAR slower than the competition.

These cars were seriously all over his gearbox and were obviously much more superior traction, but Schumacher still kept them behind him till he had to pit (apart from a few lucky drivers getting by).

This shows that even with ragged tyres, its still possible to keep cars behind you for several laps before being overtaken.

This is why I think Maldonado was wrong, he never made it past and Hamilton could (though maybe should not) defend a lot.

Unlike Grosjean who had his wheels ahead of Hamilton the whole time throughout the apex and forced him to stay on the inside and barely be able to defend.



Watch them side by side for yourselves.

right way:


wrong way:

Submerged

Micheal Schumacher kept everyone behind him when his tyres were FAR slower than the competition.

These cars were seriously all over his gearbox and were obviously much more superior traction, but Schumacher still kept them behind him till he had to pit (apart from a few lucky drivers getting by).

This shows that even with ragged tyres, its still possible to keep cars behind you for several laps before being overtaken.

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This shows absolutely nothing. Search in previous pages, already exlpained.

F1 fan

1. Defending a position he was obviously going to lose. I never said he was obligated to give it up, but seeing how things turned out, fourth was preferable.

2. Obviously, Maldonado could have stuck to the run off. I'm not blaming Hamilton for this incident, but as I and many others have said, had he realized it was a lost cause, he would have finished fourth.

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So then, Maldonado could have used the run off, but what could have Hamilton have actually done, during the incident?

Which leads me back to my point. I share the same opinion as HFS. Granted, he worded it better. He is a journalist after all. When he says it, no problem. When I say it, "Burn the witch" you immediately assumed the worst. What is your explanation for that?

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It's nothing personal, no matter how it comes across.

PeterJB

Alonso - I fear he may on his way to his 3rd championship, he's in the zone...when everyone else screws up.

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Alonso's outperforming any other driver so far by miles. I cannot believe how he continues to get so much out of this Ferrari.

SuperDiscoDaz

This is my 2p on the Hamilton - Ginsters incident after looking at replays on board Ginsters car and the camera in front of the right hander. Ginsters pulls out of the slipstream for braking to try and overtake on the outside of the right hander. He gets no more than the length from the nose to the front wheels ahead under braking. The only thing is that he is compromised for the perfect line around the right hander.

Lewis then gets back ahead because he has the best racing line around the turn. At the apex of the turn Lewis is back ahead although by less than what Ginsters was ahead earlier in the incident. Once Lewis has passed the apex he gains more than a quarter of the length of the car ahead by using all of the track to get a good run for the left hander.

At this point I believe Ginsters should have backed out of the move as it was impossible to overtake. He continues with the move anyway even though he is off the track when Lewis has done his turning right. When he attempts to get back on track he is turning right still when Lewis is trying to take the apex to the left hander while still slightly behind Lewis. He then starts to turn left while still of the track fully and still behind Lewis and slams into Lewis. I actually believe he would have done well to avoid the wall if Lewis wasn't there because of the line he took.

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From the brief onboard of Maldonado, I think I heard him floor the car and start countersteering and then hit Hamilton so he might have hit the wall but would need an onboard of Maldonado with his throttle inputs to see if he actually did floor it. No matter how much space Hamilton left, Maldonado was going to t-bone, I think that much is clear the way he came on track.

saidur_ali

From the brief onboard of Maldonado, I think I heard him floor the car and start countersteering and then hit Hamilton so he might have hit the wall but would need an onboard of Maldonado with his throttle inputs to see if he actually did floor it. No matter how much space Hamilton left, Maldonado was going to t-bone, I think that much is clear the way he came on track.

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Exactly. Doesn't matter if hamilton gave him space or not, if you look, Maldonado actually came back to the track and went straight into the side of him. He and Ham were making contact anyway.

Seismica

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo2Ou0M7de4&feature=player_detailpage#t=61s

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Well guys, judging by this footage, it's getting more than obvious that Hamilton has at least 50% of guilt. He WAS rather aggressive by his racing line and (and I know many will disagree although it is infront of their eyes) he clearly turns in on Maldo and doesn't give him any space.