1.04 update - Physics changes - Your impressions?

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nasanu
If that were true then all cars if they were capable of locking the wheel would lock at all speeds. Unless you think that weight and grip change with speed (seriously what were you thinking)?

It is very clear that most cars won't lock at high speeds, there is enough first hand evidence of that in this thread. The only difference speed produces when braking is the angular momentum. And as I said (but you chose to ignore), friction would be the major player but the mass of the wheel does play a part. That part is stopping the wheels locking at higher speeds.
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You missed one very important point of my post, I'm talking about real life physics, not gt6. That's "what I was thinking".
In real life the wheel mass is only plays a tiny part in the ability of the brakes to lock a wheel because it a very small part of the load on the brakes when the tire is in contact with the ground. If the wheel is spinning in the air then it's all about the wheel mass, but that is not normally the case. This is fairly simple physics, real life physics that is.
 
SavageEvil
Are you sure? EBD is a sub system of ABS so you cannot have a car with EBD without ABS as EBD reads the speed of wheels and if it detects locking at one end of the car it will reduce brake force to prevent the wheel from slipping.
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You are right in general about normal operation mode, until you start talking about yaw rates. That's an ESC function. And, if one pulls the fuse, both ABS and EBD (and ESC) stop working. However, most implementations of ABS/EBD/ESC have failsafe modes, when ABS/ESC shutdown, but some basic EBD functions are preserved.

Some cars have 'test modes' to work like that, some cars go into this mode when one wheel speed sensor is broken/disabled. Some cars go into this mode when there isn't enough power to the ABS brain to power everything, but enough to keep basic EBD working.

Exact implementation depends on the car. The point stands, running with ABS fuse pulled, spinning and claiming that ABS does help you stop is misguided. To be able to claim that, one has to have EBD working. I've tried it, car brakes fine w/o ABS if you know the sings of impending lock-up and are smooth with brake pedal pressure control.

The only two reasons for disabling ABS on a DD car I can think of:
1) track days on tracks where sand traps are kinda small so that if you enter them at somewhat high speed, ABS braking won't let your stop before the barriers/fence. Doing so, however, increases risk of rolling your car on the said sand trap.
2) Snow when there's nobody around you.

One can threshold-brake on the track w/o disabling ABS, in fact sensing where ABS engages and backing off a bit is helpful in maximizing braking.

So I generally agree with "do not pull your fuse", but I disagree that ABS helps you brake.
 
amar212
I am driving stock cars only and I do not find grounds to talk about changed physics.

However, I noticed different, more sensitive behavior of the suspension, which I find good. Also, lateral grip of the tires have been slightly increased which removed some of the low grip understeer while cornering.

Those probably influences perception of physics, but it is mechanical characteristics more-less. Also, it could lead to a different perception of vehicle behavior for those that have "tuned" vehicles, especially those with altered suspension values (low offsets, high bound/rebound, strong sway) that could probably lead to serious change of feel. However, it is not physics, it is their tuning IMO

IMO, both updates are good. Suspensions are more lively, especially in rebound phase while lateral grip has more "flex torsion". My subjective opinion.
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This is similar to my experience as well.

Breaking is locking up way to early despite other reports but I need more time with race tires... Its a bit odd to so easily lock tires on Daytona's oval, C7 vet seasonal.
 
dsgerbc
You are right in general about normal operation mode, until you start talking about yaw rates. That's an ESC function. And, if one pulls the fuse, both ABS and EBD (and ESC) stop working. However, most implementations of ABS/EBD/ESC have failsafe modes, when ABS/ESC shutdown, but some basic EBD functions are preserved.

Some cars have 'test modes' to work like that, some cars go into this mode when one wheel speed sensor is broken/disabled. Some cars go into this mode when there isn't enough power to the ABS brain to power everything, but enough to keep basic EBD working.

Exact implementation depends on the car. The point stands, running with ABS fuse pulled, spinning and claiming that ABS does help you stop is misguided. To be able to claim that, one has to have EBD working. I've tried it, car brakes fine w/o ABS if you know the sings of impending lock-up and are smooth with brake pedal pressure control.

The only two reasons for disabling ABS on a DD car I can think of:
1) track days on tracks where sand traps are kinda small so that if you enter them at somewhat high speed, ABS braking won't let your stop before the barriers/fence. Doing so, however, increases risk of rolling your car on the said sand trap.
2) Snow when there's nobody around you.

One can threshold-brake on the track w/o disabling ABS, in fact sensing where ABS engages and backing off a bit is helpful in maximizing braking.

So I generally agree with "do not pull your fuse", but I disagree that ABS helps you brake.
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ABS is done quite well in GT. It balances between wheels and isn't linear to the whole axel. How it helps is knowing when it engages, then backing off a bit, and this is where the max breaking threshold is... But you loose timing and accuracy in the time it takes to recover.
wowbaggerBR
Ok, there is some serious 🤬 going on with this 1.04 thingy.

Since 2010, for the first time ever, I can brake a race car into the apex with ABS off, without that crushing fear that the whole hell will brake lose as soon as I think to put my foot on brake.

I liked it!
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This is what I'm still trying to find. What car are you using? Any race car? Or race tires?
 
Lawndart
This is what I'm still trying to find. What car are you using? Any race car? Or race tires?
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Full stock: Nissan GT-R GT500, BRZ GT300 and Nissan GT-R GT3

With tuning: Audi R18 and Peugeot 908.

But I've spent more time with the GT-R GT500, with any racing tires (wet compounds included). Very manageable braking distance and behaviour. It would lock up eventually, but is more easy to handle then before.
 
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Lawndart
This is similar to my experience as well.

Breaking is locking up way to early despite other reports but I need more time with race tires... Its a bit odd to so easily lock tires on Daytona's oval, C7 vet seasonal.
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Hi :) have you tried to use 0 / 0 on the brakes? That's the setting I'm using in almost all cars w/o ABS. I have a DFGT btw.
 
z06fun
You missed one very important point of my post, I'm talking about real life physics, not gt6. That's "what I was thinking".
In real life the wheel mass is only plays a tiny part in the ability of the brakes to lock a wheel because it a very small part of the load on the brakes when the tire is in contact with the ground. If the wheel is spinning in the air then it's all about the wheel mass, but that is not normally the case. This is fairly simple physics, real life physics that is.
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But momentum is conserved and the only thing stopping the wheel rotating is the brake. It will definitely be harder to lock the wheel, but it won't stop the car any faster either.
 
Astro_BS-AS
O

Hi :) have you tried to use 0 / 0 on the brakes? That's the setting I'm using in almost all cars w/o ABS. I have a DFGT btw.
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I have not actually. I've been using the controller, perhaps I'll pull out the wheel later.

I'm a bit perplexed why default brake balance is generally 5-5 and not 0-0 now that I think about. 0-0 should be the default for either racing or stock kits... The only reason you adjust brake pressure in a race car it to better align force of deceleration with grip levels and balancing front to back with the goal being maximum deceleration... Braking is just as important at acceleration... Some would argue its more important.

@fuzzyfez so camber is still not working?
 
Astro_BS-AS
O

Hi :) have you tried to use 0 / 0 on the brakes? That's the setting I'm using in almost all cars w/o ABS. I have a DFGT btw.
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After the update I tried a couple of stock street cars with stock brakes on CS and SH tires and was running normal brake balances like 5/4, 6/4, 4/2 etc. No need to run 0/0 on those cars. Just don't put the racing brakes on. Racing brakes make you lock up with much less pedal travel and braking distances are the same.
 
Guys, remember what Kazu told in an interview before GT6 release?
GT6 will be continuously updated and upgraded every single patch, even in the physics. This because they are still trying out the new datas they got from Yokohama, KW and real-time aerodynamic.
And most of all, not just to improve GT6's game experience, but because GT6 is a live-beta testing of the future GT7 (Kaz also said this). Lot of things we have on GT6 are the basic for the next chapter, an example is the new light rendering engine, everybody of us are seeing the limit of PS3's hardware in this with a bad resolution of some shadows first of all, but hey, they made this because they need to try codes and something else on a living hardware and with this we will have good shadows and finally some good Anti-Aliashing and other things for GT7.
 
z06fun
nasanu
z06fun
nasanu
But the wheel has mass. The faster it is spinning the harder it is to stop.

From Wikipedia:

"When a body is rotating around an axis, a torque must be applied to change its angular momentum. The amount of torque needed for any given change in angular momentum is proportional to the size of that change."

This means that to lock the brakes at 150km takes 3x the force it takes to lock the wheels at 50km.
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That is would be true for a wheel spinning in the air, but normally they are in contact with the ground:) Normally the torque it takes to lock a wheel is almost completely based on the weight of the car and the grip of the given tire at that moment (for a car with no downforce). A spinning wheel has a very small amount of energy compared to the car itself.

Bottom line is, braking creates opposite force along the outer edge of the tire. It takes a certain force along the outter edge of the tire to cause it to have large slip (lock up), this force needed really has nothing to do with how fast the tire is spinning, but rather is based on the weight on the tire and its grip (coefficent of friction).
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If that were true then all cars if they were capable of locking the wheel would lock at all speeds. Unless you think that weight and grip change with speed (seriously what were you thinking)?

It is very clear that most cars won't lock at high speeds, there is enough first hand evidence of that in this thread. The only difference speed produces when braking is the angular momentum. And as I said (but you chose to ignore), friction would be the major player but the mass of the wheel does play a part. That part is stopping the wheels locking at higher speeds.
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You missed one very important point of my post, I'm talking about real life physics, not gt6. That's "what I was thinking".
In real life the wheel mass is only plays a tiny part in the ability of the brakes to lock a wheel because it a very small part of the load on the brakes when the tire is in contact with the ground. If the wheel is spinning in the air then it's all about the wheel mass, but that is not normally the case. This is fairly simple physics, real life physics that is.
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If you press on the brakes of a vehicle with its wheels spinning freely in the air at 200+ mph it can stop the wheels from spinning pretty much immediately.
 
FussyFez
@Lawndart try the 320i touring car and play with the brake bias on racing hards. Gave me very enjoyable non abs braking.

(edit, remove the camber all round to 0.0)
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I take it the camber issue still hasn't been fixed then... I was hoping the "hotfix" today might have sorted that.
 
@ dsgerbc: what I posted was just a story to illustrate that ABS makes braking 'easier' (at least for the average guy), not 'faster'. Yeah, the instructor said 'do you think you can stop faster' that he meant me, not the car. I guess it's common knowledge that ABS actually gives you a slightly longer braking distance, it just helps you maintain control.
The car from the story was a stock 320i, E36 series, Bilstein B12 Sportline suspension package and Ferodo DS2500 pads, junkyard tires. The second car I mentioned, the one that ALWAYS locked the rear wheels hard if the ABS stopped working was a Peugeot 206.
Interesting point about the ESC and EBD: both the 206 and my father's Mitsubishi Space Star allow you to go DEEP into a corner with a good amount of braking. A much more primitive ABS system from 20 years ago... no so much (especially if you take a lot of curb like an idiot: hey, it worked before!): go to 5min 12 sec

 
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Simple brake physics: Better the grip, better the brakes. Poor grip + great brakes = instant lock-up. Great grip + poor brakes = no lock-up

Transcribed to GT6:

Use normal brakes for anything comfort and sports. Adjusting bias from weak to strong. Racing brakes are for racing tyres. Low bias for rain and hard while soft requires more power.

No hocus pocus.
 
Me and @SUBSAILOR in another thread are analyzing issues with the 4WD torque distribution after 1.04. I think there's much less torque being applied to the front tires, causing most 4WD cars to act like RWD cars. It's becoming a pain right now for the faster 4WD supercars such as the Veyron and it's making some license tests impossible to gold as a result. I'm thinking we need to bring more attention to this issue instead of whining over ABS.
 
@Sier_Pinski, no fixing to that latest fix for those broken AWD cars, now they are really fixed, no more understeering, just plain easy to drive, no more need for fixing, or maybe if they do them to act like MR are done, that would be nice, yes I'll vote for fixed-mixed-easy-MR-Physics to AWD cars if RWD model has to drop out, but I like RWD. Everybody knows how to drive RWD so it can't be broken..

Who really needs AWD? Maybe PD can FIX all cars go RWD? Lets make a Vote for that on five different threads and send one hundred posts to twitter and Facebook, we have power, we can change all cars to RWD!!
 
I have to say that I love the game again!
1,03 destroyed the fun but now its back and fantastic!

Just discovered the ferrari 458! It even sounds good!
And the alfa 155 racecar! Oh man I want that in premium!!! Its GREAT fun to fling around the ring!

There are a few car that are just not behaving as they should but all others are really great!
So please dont change anything more now! Pleeeeeaaase!
 
They should definitely remove the forced traction control when going off track. The off course path at Les Combes, Spa Francorchamps has the same surface as the track itself ( same could be said for Willows, Daytona Speedway and many others), yet it slows you down and simply disallows any wheelspin. Isnt there a simple penalty system to avoid people cutting corners?
 
Ok did something happen with the little mini update again? My Camaro that was SO lifelike last night is junk today, same settings, same track, same everything.

Or am I just too tired from working so much this week?

At least I had one night of bliss lol :lol:
 
Adjusting the run off area is fine and all, especially for cutting large sections of track, BUUUUT.. flying off the track then taking 30 seconds to drive back on is just dumb.
 
Sier_Pinski
Me and @SUBSAILOR in another thread are analyzing issues with the 4WD torque distribution after 1.04. I think there's much less torque being applied to the front tires, causing most 4WD cars to act like RWD cars. It's becoming a pain right now for the faster 4WD supercars such as the Veyron and it's making some license tests impossible to gold as a result. I'm thinking we need to bring more attention to this issue instead of whining over ABS.
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I ran some tests a few minutes ago and realized that it's a bug or someone messed up. If you notice the '--' in the torque distribution of the default setting then you will have an AWD car with 100% rear wheel torque bias. Seems to affect all stock torque splitters. Just toss in an adjustable splitter and shop around for the stock setting for any car you want back to normal for now. It's not broken or anything, just bugged but it does give you something GT and PD never gives you full 100% rear torque bias in an AWD car we always get 10/90 max. Pull up the RA menu and it will show you the stock bias of torque if you do not have the adjustable one installed, not sure about cars that have mildly adjustable torque splitters if anyone knows those cars I'll buy them and check it out for myself.
 
whereSTheFUhd
If you press on the brakes of a vehicle with its wheels spinning freely in the air at 200+ mph it can stop the wheels from spinning pretty much immediately.
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Sigh...

Look this is getting annoying. Energy is not free. That is all I will say. Please figure out the rest.
 
I'm not impressed with the new braking physics at all. It used to be a challenge to drive without ABS. Now, unless you have poor brake balance settings, you can mash on the brake button/pedal in and the car won't even look like locking up. What's the point of that?

Has anyone else noticed that they still haven't fixed the 'stoppies' problem with the AI either? Cmon PD, cars wheel standing on their noses under braking is ridiculous, please fix it. :(
 
jlmcmillan1978
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Has anyone else noticed that they still haven't fixed the 'stoppies' problem with the AI either? Cmon PD, cars wheel standing on their noses under braking is ridiculous, please fix it. :(
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I agree on that. I run lot of lover;) lower class races for fun and it is not immersive seeing various lancers,fiats ... doing stoppies on top of the matterhorn or bathurst. Today there was another "hotfix" released hour ago ,supposedly fixing some 4wd cars dynamic and I thought ,well ,that's that, it is fixed, finally. Just checked 500pp race on bathurst > stoppies are not fixed! :ill:
 
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