1080i PROOF (PICS INCLUDED)

[cobragt]

Okay, I'm going to post my thoughts on this after spending some time switching between all 3 modes. I have a CRT based television that will display both 480p and 1080i in their native resolution (unlike fixed pixel displays like plasma or lcd that convert any signal you feed them to the panel's native resolution). Believe it or not, the PS2 can output a 1080i signal, I never knew it could and would have believed otherwise if I hadn't seen it myself. The 480p in GT4 is a big improvement over 480i if your TV supports it, but 1080i is a very impressive step above that. I saw no decrease in effects or framerate switching to both higher resolutions. The game just looks much sharper. I don't believe that the horizontal resolution goes up (meaning it's probably 640x1080i). IT'S NOT UPSCALED. Upscaled video generally doesn't look much better than it's original source's native resolution. Owner's of HDTVs will be very happy with this game If you have any questions, please ask.

I liked your reply but are you sure 640 isn't upscaled to 1920? I mean, your tv, will set anything that support 1080i to the native res of 1080i.

 

[EJ257inGC8]

I don't think anyone said the HORIZONTAL resolution was 1920, we've just said that the VERTICAL resolution is 1080i. The two can change idependently and while a true High Defenition video signal is 1920x1080, there are very few if any "HD" televisions that can support a horizontal resolution of 1920. I honestly don't see why you've taken it upon yourself to be so negative about this (Saintkamus, not CobraGT). It's a welcome feature and it looks amazing. The truth is nobody knows how exactly they are doing it, but the few of us who have seen it all think it looks considerably better than 480i, but I'm sure that won't make you happy

 

[cobragt]

Jaggies are minor now huh? What about flickering and shimmering, is all of that gone when gt4 is in 1080i? Is it possible for you to take some pics? I would love to some

 

[EJ257inGC8]

I guess you could say the horizontal resultion is upscaled, but there are two different timing signals, one for horizontal and one for vertical resolution signals. They can change the vertical resolution to 1080i without changing the horizontal resolution by altering these timing signals, but they would need to program accordingly to keep aspect ratio of the game correct (have you ever played the game in widescreen mode on a non wide screen TV? Everything is tall and skinny). I don't know how they did it and neither do the other know it alls on this board. I would have definitely claimed it wouldn't be possible on the hardware without a huge framerate hit or complexity change, but now that I've seen it, I'm quite amazed at what PD had done, and it is easily the best graphics I've seen on anything but a super high end PC. The jaggies and shimmering are there, but a lot less noticable. I don't think digital pictures of a TV set would turn out good, but I could give it a try.

 

[cobragt]

Any effort would get a 👍

 

[Lapdog]

To run in 1080i, GT4 will only allow 16:9 mode.

Just to confirm my earlier assertions, I can confirm the progressive scan VGA adaptor works with any age PS2 and that it supports both 480p and 1080i (amongst others). Unfortunately, since the menus are 480i, you need some other display (such as a line doubler or NTSC PSone LCD screen) as well.

 

[SaintKamus]

I don't know, I've been told theyre 640x1080, maybe they are 1280x1080.

photomode renders are 1280x960 regardless of the aspect ratio. just look at all the pitcures you download. that's the resolution they are in. it's safe to assume they could be displayed at 1280x960 then upscaled to 1080i while watching them on your PS2.

 

[SaintKamus]

I guess you could say the horizontal resultion is upscaled, but there are two different timing signals, one for horizontal and one for vertical resolution signals. They can change the vertical resolution to 1080i without changing the horizontal resolution by altering these timing signals, but they would need to program accordingly to keep aspect ratio of the game correct (have you ever played the game in widescreen mode on a non wide screen TV? Everything is tall and skinny). I don't know how they did it and neither do the other know it alls on this board. I would have definitely claimed it wouldn't be possible on the hardware without a huge framerate hit or complexity change, but now that I've seen it, I'm quite amazed at what PD had done, and it is easily the best graphics I've seen on anything but a super high end PC. The jaggies and shimmering are there, but a lot less noticable. I don't think digital pictures of a TV set would turn out good, but I could give it a try.

if you were talking about square pixels then you'd be right... but you're not. pixels aren't square when PD upscales. evrything can be stretched or shrkined. so that's not a problem at all.

 

[EJ257inGC8]

if you were talking about square pixels then you'd be right... but you're not. pixels aren't square when PD upscales. evrything can be stretched or shrkined. so that's not a problem at all.

I think we can definitely agree on that, I don't think they are rendering with the idea of using square pixels. I think it's pretty safe to assume that if the ps2 were to render at a full 1920X1080 there would be no possible way to run the game at 60fps, although I would have said the same about 640X1080i before I saw it But on a CRT based display device it is very hard to see a big difference in horizontal screen resolution and it is quite noticable when there is a difference in vertical resolution because of the nature of the display technology itself (scanlines). I was pretty surprised to see the option because I had heard the claim from KY that it couldn't run in 480p without looking worse, but I can definitely say that it looks much better in 480p than 480i. So I will concede that you could say it is upscaled horizontally, but not vertically (that would look worse than running it at 480i in my opinion from what I've seen with 480i native video sources upscaled to 1080i, they look blurry and less sharp than they originally did).

 

[EJ257inGC8]

And, let's not forget the original topic of this thread, it does support 1080i vertical resolution output, and it does make a big difference for those with HD capable displays. I kept my ps2 on my standard non HD television because I thought most games, especially GT looked better displayed in their native display of 480i. They looked blurry on my HD television because it, like most, will convert 480i signals to 480p automatically. This caused some visual effects that made it look a little blurry and less sharp in my opinion. But with these new options, it will only be hooked up to the HD set

 

[Solid Lifters]

I am going to be buying a TV soon. What should I get? I want a TV that supports 1080i for GT4. Should I go with 4:3 or 16:9?
This is the TV I have my eye on:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...ductCategoryId=pcmcat28000050014&type=product

What do you guys think? I really only want to spend around $1,000USD.

I know nothing about 1080i/480p. All I need is a PS2 and component cables? Any info would be great.

But a HDTV that has at least one DVI and one HDMI input. Some sets now come with 1080p compatibility. I doubt you'll find one for under a grand, though. Some will have 1080i deinterlacer or scan conversion. If the set doesn't have a HDMI input, make sure the DVI input is HTCP compliant. Trust me, MAKE SURE ON YOUR OWN. Do not trust the salesmen, because they either don't know or they'll flat out lie to you. CRT HDTV sets are still the best, hands down. You can probably find a Sony Wega HDTV with 34" screen for around that price on special. Wait for the sale adds for the Super Bowl. It's the best time to buy a new TV set.

 

[BlackZ28]

what about projection tvs? they seem well priced for the size. I can get a real nice one with 1080i (40-45") for around 1,500.

 

[EJ257inGC8]

I agree with solid lifters, CRT direct view sets still give the best picture, but they are deep and heavy. Rear projection are the best bang for the buck when it comes to size, but there are a few drawbacks to them if they are CRT based. First is burn in. Static images like games or channels with banners that never move can burn in a ghost image. So if you were to play gt4 for hours at a time, you may be able to see your speedo and tach as a slight ghost image whenever you're watching something else. Also, it's damn near impossible to get them converged perfectly, which means that you will get a little color bleeding where the red, green and blue scanlines don't exactly line up. Now there are newer technologies in projection televisions, the most poplular being LCD and DLP. They don't suffer from the problems of burn in or convergence, but they are more expensive and not quite as bright (generally). And, they typically look worse than CRT based displays on non HD signals.

 

[BlackZ28]

so, even though slightly worse a worthy investment?
all i really want is GT4 in 1080i. is it true it only runs in 16:9 in 1080i mode? So ill need a TV capable of 1080i and 16:9? GT4 is why im buying a new tv

 

[EJ257inGC8]

If the TV supports 1080i it will support wide screen. If it is a standard aspect ratio (4x3) it will have the black bars on the top and the bottom when it is running in 1080i mode. If it is a wide screen display, it will fill the screen normally with a 1080i signal, but you will need to stretch or zoom your other video sources that aren't wide screen. So, if you are just getting it for gt4, I'd suggest a wide screen display, but if you are getting it for video games in general, I'd suggest a standard 4x3 television as there are many games that support widescreen but overall, more don't than do. If you get a rear projection crt, try and vary the games you play, I know people that have burned the 4 player split screen lines from multiplayer halo on their television, and it's not repairable for much cheaper than buying a new television. It's okay to play games on them, just be aware that any image that doesn't change, like your speedo and tach can potentially burn in if they are there for hours at a time for day after day.

 

[BlackZ28]

thanks, your info has been really helpful. 👍 i am a big gamer and I own all three consoles.
by the way, welcome to the boards.

 

[EJ257inGC8]

Thanks man Me too on the gamer thing. You'll be alot more happy with your GC and XBOX as many games support 480p on those consoles and all look so much better in 480p. I used to work at a semi high end electronics store for years, so I learned a lot about televisions and HD in general, and I'm really anal with video quality on everything.

 

[EJ257inGC8]

Just make sure you have component video cables for each of them as it's the only way to get anything above 480i out of them. You may want to look into a component video switcher too as you will quickly run out of inputs.

 

[Lapdog]

And remember, PAL Xboxes and GameCubes have their component display options disabled.

 

[Buck-O]

I don't think anyone said the HORIZONTAL resolution was 1920, we've just said that the VERTICAL resolution is 1080i. The two can change idependently and while a true High Defenition video signal is 1920x1080, there are very few if any "HD" televisions that can support a horizontal resolution of 1920. I honestly don't see why you've taken it upon yourself to be so negative about this (Saintkamus, not CobraGT). It's a welcome feature and it looks amazing. The truth is nobody knows how exactly they are doing it, but the few of us who have seen it all think it looks considerably better than 480i, but I'm sure that won't make you happy

To that end, i think its worth noting, that what is internally rendered on the PS2's core, and the resolution its being drawn at, has little to do with the resolution that the video controler is outputting.


Case and point, GTA:VC supported DTS. The output through the cable SHOWED 96/44, but the actual internal sound encoding was done in 24/11, and was jsut being SHOWN as 96/44.

So, whatever the PS2 internally renderes the scene at, is somthing completely to what the video output controler is sending.

I think to many people simply dont understand that the two are NOT connected in anyway to what the other does.

 

[cobragt]

Well I dont know if the photomode pics can comfirm what res gt4 renders images in. I have seen 960x1280 photomode pics. Is it possible to make photomode pic any res you want? My best bet would be 1280x1080 or 1280x1024 since 1280x1024 is the max res of the ps2, the vertical lines could be upscaled while the horizontal lines stay the same or could both horizontal and vertical could be upscaled? PD should have some indepth info on 1080i in gt4, all we got are theories and guesses

 

[Buck-O]

Well I dont know if the photomode pics can comfirm what res gt4 renders images in. I have seen 960x1280 photomode pics. Is it possible to make photomode pic any res you want? My best bet would be 1280x1080 or 1280x1024 since 1280x1024 is the max res of the ps2, the vertical lines could be upscaled while the horizontal lines stay the same or could both horizontal and vertical could be upscaled? PD should have some indepth info on 1080i in gt4, all we got are theories and guesses

When it comes to photomode, thats completely different.

Becuase your not real time rendering the final output image. And the final image is certaintly not done instantaniously. So, in theory, in photomode the PS2 could render a 1800x1600x32bit image.


But lets look at this in a practicle manor, with somthing we can measure.

this shot.

Lets focus on the rear window sill of the civic's hatch.
Lets count the jaggies on the horizontal plain.

480P = 10
1080i = 19

Considering that each one of these jaggies represents a line of verticle image data, it would be safe to assume that the verticle rendered resolution of the 1080i shot, is roughly double that of the 480P shot. Which could be easily acheived in the interlacing process. Obviously that comes out to aprox. 960, which then has some aliasing applied, and is output at 1080i.

If you look at the horizontal jaggies on the side of the car (by looking at the verticle plane), you will notice that the pixel information in the jaggies is virtually identicle between the two shots. Which would indicate to me that there is virtually little, to no line doubling going on horizontally. Just verticly. Which, in a racing game, is where most help is needed.

But, as ive said, reguardless of what the image is rendered internally, make littlee difference to waht the actual output of the signal is (which, from teh video controler, would be 1920X1080 interlaced, even if internally it was rendered at say, 640x480).

Thats just my own personal observations. Id be happy to eit the shots to gether for close die be side comparison. If no one gets what im saying, by what i mean.

 

[Buck-O]

Also, to add to that.

If you look at the fence line, it tell teh story too.

In the 480P shot, you can clearly see the verticle fence posts in the far right of the shot. However there is not enough pixel there to properly display the cable lines between then.

Yet on the 1080i shot, the lines remain clear up untill the very edge of the right side of the shot. However, you loose the verticle poles about half way round the fence. Long before you do in the 480P shot.


Becuase verticle image lines are products of horizontal resolution lines, i think that only further proves that the image being shown, is line doubled verticly, and not horizontally.

 

[1twojay]

My photography skills aren't bad eh?

 

[cobragt]

So the render res could very well be 960x1080i then upscaled to 1920x1080i or not upscaled? You said the vertical lines was being double but not the horizontal. If gt4 was to do true 1080i, would it look alot better or a little than the version we know of now

 

[Buck-O]

My photography skills aren't bad eh?

Nothing that couldent be greatly improved upon by someone with a video capture card, and aome skills.

That would be the final tell all of the video resolution debocle.


But they serve their purpose well. 👍

 

[cobragt]

Is there such a card that could support 1080i?

 

[1twojay]

Nothing that couldent be greatly improved upon by someone with a video capture card, and aome skills.

That would be the final tell all of the video resolution debocle.


But they serve their purpose well. 👍

Which proves a point: if it looks this good from a camera shot, imagine it in person

 

[Buck-O]

So the render res could very well be 960x1080i then upscaled to 1920x1080i or not upscaled? You said the vertical lines was being double but not the horizontal. If gt4 was to do true 1080i, would it look alot better or a little than the version we know of now

I think what we have here is the classic case of trying to explain rocket science to an auto mechanic, through stick figure drawings in a sand box.

What im saying is that the render is probibly being done internally at im guessing 640x540...progressively.

At 640x480P, it renders at 640x480P internally.

When it is set to 1080i, it renderes at 640x540P. And then when it goes through the interlacing process, 540P, is split into two seperate images, and also im sure through some rendering tricks on oposite passes, creating two 540, stepped, interlaced images. WHich displayed on the screen at the same time through the video controler , produces a 1080i verticle image height. And then the remaining anamorphic 640, is simply expanded into the 1920 area. Kinda like enlarging an image without adding extra pixels.


This all makes perfect sence in my head, by trying to explain it in words, to someone that isnt familier with the HD standards, or wit how widescreen anamprphic content works, its very frustrating.

 

[Buck-O]

Is there such a card that could support 1080i?

ANy HD tner card with VIVO will.

ANd most All-In-Wonders will as well.