2008 Best Car Series Final: FIAT 500 vs Audi R8

[homeforsummer]

I've voted 500.

I looked at it this way:

Given the choice of a 500 or a MINI, I'd have to think long and hard about which car I wanted - they both appeal to me a lot.

Given the choice of an R8 or a Porsche 911, not much thinking would be involved. The 911 has much more appeal for me, and if you were to compare the R8 to other cars in it's class, you come up with the GT-R which is pretty far ahead in most objective areas.

There's no car in the Fiat's class which is as far ahead objectively in the same way while costing far less, so the Fiat has to be the better choice against it's rivals.

 

[Famine]

I can't decide... The R8's good but really, really does look just like the TT when you see it coming the other way. Not much chance of you mistaking the FIAT 500 for anything else. But the 500 is, as Smallhorses said, another example of throwback marketing - like the MINI and Beetle - appealing to people who had the original cars, with all their flaws, to have a modernised version. But like the Beetle, the new 500's engine is in the wrong place and driving the wrong wheels compared to the original - but like the MINI, the new car is pretty good despite sharing almost no characteristics besides a slightly similar exterior.

Neither car is head and shoulders above other cars in its class - though the FIAT is the cheaper of the leading pack in its class and the Audi is... not.


Tricky.

 

[MagpieRacer]

The R8, fantasic car, brilliant all round. AS the others said the 500 is just because Mini and VW did so why dont we.

 

[Joey D]

The only extra reason I voted for the R8 was the engine sound, you have to admit it's a sound that appeals.

I won't admit sound appeals at all. Sure when I'm at a track day or an autocross I like to hear engines, but in my own personal vehicle the last thing I want it to be is noisy.

===

With the 500 I don't understand why people are against it because it isn't like the original. Nothing is like the original. You shouldn't compare the new, modern vehicle to the classic one. It would be like me comparing a 1964 Mustang to a 2008 Mustang (ok bad example, they are still the same car ) 1967 Camaro to a 2009 Camaro. Yes they look similar but share no parts, does that make it a bad car? Based solely on how it's styled, no it doesn't.

I mean I agree not everyone is going to like the car, but disliking it because it's not the original seems really odd to me.

===

With the R8, I think it's a great car but for the price it's not. Like other's have said, given a choice I would rather have something else.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I won't admit sound appeals at all. Sure when I'm at a track day or an autocross I like to hear engines, but in my own personal vehicle the last thing I want it to be is noisy.

No, you just won't agree with me, when you hit the go pedal the car makes a noise, all cars will (except hybrids, maybe you'd like a hybrid?). I would bet on it that the R8 is very quiet at cruise speeds, probably even quieter than some family hatch backs because it'd be a deep low pitch sound.
You may not care about what noise it makes, or you may prefer the 4cyl noise, I respect that, but to say you don't want an R8 because it's too noisy seems a little misplaced.

PS- Please don't turn this into some big shibang, not everything we say to each other has to be hostile.

 

[Joey D]

The way you made it sound was that everyone has to like a car that sounds good, all I'm saying it I don't want a car that makes noise. Most luxury cars now are very quite inside and you can't really here the engine or tires, which is what I want out of a car. Yes the R8 is quite, but plenty have passed by in front of my house (I live on a main road) and they aren't by any means quite, especially when you step on the go pedal. Remember Top Gear is not the be all and end all authority on automotive information.

This has nothing to do with you making the comment, but rather me disagreeing with the statement. Someone whom I really like on these boards could have made that statement and I would have said the same thing.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

The way you made it sound was that everyone has to like a car that sounds good, all I'm saying it I don't want a car that makes noise. Most luxury cars now are very quite inside and you can't really here the engine or tires, which is what I want out of a car. Yes the R8 is quite, but plenty have passed by in front of my house (I live on a main road) and they aren't by any means quite, especially when you step on the go pedal. Remember Top Gear is not the be all and end all authority on automotive information.

This has nothing to do with you making the comment, but rather me disagreeing with the statement. Someone whom I really like on these boards could have made that statement and I would have said the same thing.

Sorry if I made it sound like I was forcing an opinion there, I simply meant that it has a nice engine sound. The only reason I posted the Top Gear video was for people to hear that engine sound. Not so they could listen to Clarkson raving on.

 

[exigeracer]

In today's market it's incredibly hard to create a desireable product that isn't the product of extensive marketing and celebrity hype, but simply a creation that is fundamentally attractive.

I have to disagree with that statement. I think today's consumer whole is the biggest commodity culture ever marketed to. It's more gullible, susceptible, careless and impulsive than ever. Masking a familiar, rather normal car in retro, "for the people"-ethos, cutesy, bisexual cultural reference is the product of clever marketing teams because they know it will sell. It's cute marketing, visceral and attractive, but bottom-line is just playing the same old line as for the past 10 or 15 years. It's retro selling the car, not the car itself.

People have been criticizing the R8 for being a flavor of the week, but I can't quite see how that argument holds water when the 500 has had more precedents in a shorter amount of time. They're doing what VW did, what MINI did, what every American manufacturer has been stuck on for the past 15 years, and that's just in the automotive design field, nevermind the general product design market, which influences the buyer more than ever before.

Quite frankly, I was pretty surprised that a European car company, one that I considered rather tasteful and avant-garde, pulled a retro design. Europeans have been laughing at Americans for years because they can't seem to figure out something other than recycling the old, yet they just pulled it themselves, especially so late in the retro trend.

 

[TheCracker]

While i agree that the whole retro thing has been done to death and is already old hat, it must have really done the trick for Fiat. Apart from selling plenty of cars in Italy itself, i would guess that they've struggled to shift them in the rest of Europe. Whilst not exactly rare over here in the UK, you'd hardly find yourself falling over Fiats either. In the short time since the 500 has began being sold, i've noticed there are loads of them about already - i probably saw half a dozen of them on my short drive to work this morning. Some of this might just be because i now notice Fiats, where as before as a car enthusiast your eyes just ignored them. This can only be a good thing for them can't it? If the general public start cooing over them it can only have a positive impact on sale for them can it not?

I very much doubt that most 500 owners would have bought a Fiat Panda or what ever Fiat Seicento successor might have been built instead. I should think it was potential Mini owners who have bought them.

 

[Leonidae]

I have to go with the R8 in this one. When its pitted against R8, Fiat 500's flaws become obvious. 500 is trendy, fashionable fad for the adults of this day who used to won one when they were teens. 500 is an Internet Caféteria, a time machine for nostalgic and trendy people. An Icon of the hippie 60's.. don't get me wrong, I like it's looks and all, but just the fact that it was made to fill in a slot in the market that currently sells reasonable, makes it just as pointless as BMW X6, Porsche Cayman etc etc.. whereas R8 is something Audi never has done before.

just my 2 cents

 

[Philly]

The 500 does nothing for me. I said it in the vs. DB9 thread, but it's a Sheep in Lamb's clothing just to appeal to the masses. It's a wrong-engined, wrong-wheel driven, cash-cow throwback.

Where are your standards?

FF is universal because it is usable. It is the most practical drivetrain, especially in this segment. Joey's MINI is going to be far more practical than a Clio V6 will ever dream of being. And what can stop a car from being great if it is trying to be a practical small car and not trying to break lap records (which the R8 doesn't do too well, at that).

Don't get me wrong, the R8 is an amazing car. My heart always races when I see one. Why? It's a supercar. But that's it's problem. it's just another supercar. That car has been done many times before, and there are many cars I'd rather have than it, no matter how much I would absolutely love having one. Maybe a Ferrari, Lamborghini, 911 Turbo or an Aston would do nicely...

 

[Tornado]

It's retro selling the car, not the car itself.

I can think of 3 examples that make that incorrect.

People have been criticizing the R8 for being a flavor of the week, but I can't quite see how that argument holds water

Europeans have been laughing at Americans for years because they can't seem to figure out something other than recycling the old, yet they just pulled it themselves, especially so late in the retro trend.

Volkswagen started it. Then BMW did it. Then Ford did it. I would hope Europeans weren't laughing so hard they missed the fact that the entire retro craze came from their companies.

 

[TheCracker]

Volkswagen started it. Then BMW did it. Then Ford did it. I would hope Europeans weren't laughing so hard they missed the fact that the entire retro craze came from their companies.

Plymouth/Chrysler might argue against that statement.

 

[Tornado]

I would hardly think that the limited production Prowler had the effect of completely starting the retro craze. Especially when compared to the New Beetle which came out the year later, which not only was a direct reference to a specific car (rather than the "general idea" approach that the Prowler took) but also sold in the bajillion range for the first couple of years. Who is the industry more likely to copy: A company that is selling handbuilt roadsters with sales similar to what Morgan manages, or a company that introduces a car that is fundamentally flawed yet despite rational logic completely revitalizes an ailing company through stupidly high sales?

Either way, the "Europeans have been laughing at Americans for years because they can't seem to figure out something other than recycling the old" comment doesn't really fit when the Europeans took the idea and ran with it on a much larger scale only a single year after Chrysler thought of it.

 

[forza2.0]

The thing I find the most amazing is how the mini has transformed joeys views. A year ago and further aback I remember some of the opinions you had on small cars, and fwd drive cars. Not that im complaining ofcourse.

Anyway, I voted for the R8. The 500 is a nice car (and remember I recommended it to my gf, and she now owns one) but for me it is slightly too feminime styled interior wise. But then my preferences in a car is completely different. I either want all out luxury, bmw or audi style, or not much at all like a lotus or vauxhall vx220.

Apples and oranges.

p.s

Cant understand the R8's appeal?

Well think of it like this. Its a sportscar, yet a majority of people who dont think its all that, for some reason label it a supercar.

 

[Joey D]

Care to show me that? A year ago I was looking at the MINI.

 

[forza2.0]

longer than a year then.

 

[Joey D]

Ya opinions change, I used to think GM cars were good to, then my Blazer went to hell.

 

[YSSMAN]

While the R8 is still a nice car (I continue to prefer the Corvette and 911, however), the shortfall comes as that it is not a vehicle that is applicable or attainable by as many people as the FIAT. Sure, FIAT didn't do much more than re-skin and re-work a Panda, but they've managed to make it into something completely different, much better, and altogether has caused a stir of interest in the brand not just in Europe, but around the world. Audi has its hands in everyone's pot, but where there are kids in North America, where FIAT hasn't been in more than two decades who want them... Thats HUGE.

It certainly deserves the nod for what its done over the past year or two, especially against the MINI, which would have otherwise been a David v Goliath issue. FIAT has managed to put the world on notice, and as I've said before, the car couldn't have come at a better time. With gas prices on the rise and an increasing interest in small, "premium" cars, they hit the nail on the head... All at an affordable price, with a good bit of reliability and pretty good build quality as an added bonus. I really can't think of too many small cars that would be more deserving this year...

 

[Muzaffar]

With the 500 I don't understand why people are against it because it isn't like the original. Nothing is like the original. You shouldn't compare the new, modern vehicle to the classic one. It would be like me comparing a 1964 Mustang to a 2008 Mustang (ok bad example, they are still the same car ) 1967 Camaro to a 2009 Camaro. Yes they look similar but share no parts, does that make it a bad car? Based solely on how it's styled, no it doesn't.

Well I could agree on that. 👍 Almost all the modern retro cars are too different than their counterparts anyways....... But yeah, kinda funny how the Europeans could pull it off as a success in such a short time while the Americans have done it for years but to no avail.... 👍

Cant understand the R8's appeal?

Well think of it like this. Its a sportscar, yet a majority of people who dont think its all that, for some reason label it a supercar.

I think we all could understand that. But why waste money on an R8 when you can get a slightly better performance super car for less? I mean its not like the R8 actually is a purpose built supercar nor an everyday supercar (being a 2 seater MR is not considered practical for everyday use) so what category does it fell into? To me, the R8 is only there just because it can. Even if people were to buy it, its very likely they will buy the R8 as their first supercar.......

The only reason why people called it a supercar is easy enough to understand. It has a powerful mid engine, seats two people only and has the looks (and price) of one as well......

 

[forza2.0]

supercars cost 70k? But I can buy SUV's, estates etc that cost just as much or more than the R8.

If I wanted to I could just buy a evo 9, spend a little money on tuning and coilovers and I could keep up with or even outrun a R8, but thats not what it is about.

Its like how I would rather have a aston martin v8 vantage than a 911 for example. Simply being that in my eyes it looks better, and most importantly, you dont see one at every other street corner like you do with a 911. 911's are everywhere in this country!

 

[Muzaffar]

supercars cost 70k? But I can buy SUV's, estates etc that cost just as much or more than the R8.

If I wanted to I could just buy a evo 9, spend a little money on tuning and coilovers and I could keep up with or even outrun a R8, but thats not what it is about.

Its like how I would rather have a aston martin v8 vantage than a 911 for example. Simply being that in my eyes it looks better, and most importantly, you dont see one at every other street corner like you do with a 911. 911's are everywhere in this country!

Well I was just exaggerating on that point to be honest. I could say the R8 is an expensive sports car compared to the GT-R, 911, 'Vette, M3, etc. and I could also say that the R8 is a cheap supercar compared to the F430, Gallardo, DB9, Gran Turismo, etc. So like I said, where does the R8 fall in which category? Seems like it tries to be both but fails at it......

As for the comparison, some people would like to have a good car, while others just buy it because they can. Sure you will see more 911 on the road, but more people would be assure that the 911 is a totally refined car and is so totally (for them at least) to buy one. Even I would buy a 911 if I had the money. Then there are the people who are a little adventurous. People like you for example, are bored of the contemporary and buy cars out of the norm. If people choose to buy the V8V, they may have to put up with a higher maintenance cost and have to source their parts a little more, not to mentioned the price for actually getting one.......

 

[MustangSVT]

I voted for the Audi R8 for the following reason.

When I was talking about a year ago with this very rich friend of mine, he was looking at buying some sort of exotic sports car and I was discussing this with him. He was looking at Audi S8, Audi R8, Ferrari 599 and Ferrari 430. He wanted to get a 599, but he decided that it wasn't worth the price over the R8.

The conclusion of the story is that whenever I personally think of "practical exotic sports car", the first things that come to my mind are Nissan GT-R, Audi R8, Porsche 997, M3 and C6 Corvette (in that order). Since one of those is on this poll, I voted for it.

 

[Philly]

p.s

Cant understand the R8's appeal?

Well think of it like this. Its a sportscar, yet a majority of people who dont think its all that, for some reason label it a supercar.

The 500 is a compact. Point being?

When I was talking about a year ago with this very rich friend of mine, he was looking at buying some sort of exotic sports car and I was discussing this with him. He was looking at Audi S8, Audi R8, Ferrari 599 and Ferrari 430. He wanted to get a 599, but he decided that it wasn't worth the price over the R8.

I can certainly understand this thinking, but I would call into question how many of the potential R8/599/911/430 buyers really have price on their minds. People who can plunk down $150,000 on a car without thinking are usually the same people who wouldn't mind paying double that for a car.

 

[daan]

R8 vs 500? I'm voting for the R8 as it's a lower number.

That's as good a reason as some of them here....

 

[JCE]

R8, because it does everything I want a car to do and more. And it makes a better noise.

 

[Jim Prower]

I voted 500.

1. It's more relevant to real life, while doing something that the New Beetle and New MINI couldn't - capture the spirit of the original while advancing it at the same time.
2. I might say that, in Abarth form, it might keep up with that R8 on a twisty road. It's light, fun, fast, and frugal, even in non-Abarth form.
3. Audi, for some reason, thinks that us Americans are stupid enough to pay $110,000-$140,000 USD for a car that should be, at the very most, $80,000-$100,000 USD. Even better would be to use the numbers they use in the GB market. (I have checked them, and they are lower, much more acceptible) Porsche can do it, and does. Why can't Audi? Mind you, no matter how much you hate us, like to ignore us, think we're irrelevant, we DO buy quite a few cars here, and there is a market. Just not for a Carrera at Turbo prices.
4: I understand the 500's design. I don't understand the R8's. No-one's explained to me what functional purpose that side strake does.

 

[forza2.0]

The 500 is a compact. Point being?

A sports car being labeled a supercar by people who arent too keen on it.

It must be doing something right to be labeled a supercar.

simple really.

3. Audi, for some reason, thinks that us Americans are stupid enough to pay $110,000-$140,000 USD for a car that should be, at the very most, $80,000-$100,000 USD.

Evidently you guys are. 18 month waiting list

Anyway american car companies have done the same when they send some of their faster stuff over, and even then the steering wheel is still on the wrong side

2. I might say that, in Abarth form, it might keep up with that R8 on a twisty road. It's light, fun, fast, and frugal, even in non-Abarth form.

no. chance. in. hell.

 

[nissan tuner]

I'm voting for the R8 because the 500 is on the bottom end of my list of FWDs that I would buy.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I mean its not like the R8 actually is...nor an everyday supercar (being a 2 seater MR is not considered practical for everyday use)

Why not? Everyday I see tens or hundreds of people commuting to work/whatever else by themselves. And it's not RWD, it's AWD.