2008 Best Car Series Final: FIAT 500 vs Audi R8

[Jim Prower]

Evidently you guys are. 18 month waiting list

Anyway american car companies have done the same when they send some of their faster stuff over, and even then the steering wheel is still on the wrong side

I do have a couple counterpoints.

Yes, there's an 18 month waiting list. I half expect that...that's all the guys who want to have the latest, greatest stuff. How quickly that list shrinks...or grows...shall be the true test of the car, and it's current pricing. I might even be tempted to think that this is a "Manufacturer's Markup" meant to last the first year or so.

Secondly - Porsche can do it. Porsche IS doing it. Why isn't Audi? I realize that at this price point, it's not all logic, but, beyond being "Art Nouveau," and a little faster, I don't see much appeal in the Audi that I couldn't get in a Porsche Carrera S for a whopping $30,000 less, or for the same price, a Turbo. You criticized me earlier for sitting on my side of the pond and not looking over...but it's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it? I can see now why it's so much better over there (And I did fact-check...Not that I don't trust you. )...I can't see the advantage over here, though.

Oh, and if you get the R8 somewhere it can't use it's power, (any good, twisty mountain pass,) I'd be willing to bet the 500 Abarth could hang in there. Pull away or pass...probably not, but hang in there, yes. The R8's not exactly a lightweight.

 

[forza2.0]

I do have a couple counterpoints.

Yes, there's an 18 month waiting list. I half expect that...that's all the guys who want to have the latest, greatest stuff. How quickly that list shrinks...or grows...shall be the true test of the car, and it's current pricing. I might even be tempted to think that this is a "Manufacturer's Markup" meant to last the first year or so.

Secondly - Porsche can do it. Porsche IS doing it. Why isn't Audi? I realize that at this price point, it's not all logic, but, beyond being "Art Nouveau," and a little faster, I don't see much appeal in the Audi that I couldn't get in a Porsche Carrera S for a whopping $30,000 less, or for the same price, a Turbo. You criticized me earlier for sitting on my side of the pond and not looking over...but it's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it? I can see now why it's so much better over there (And I did fact-check...Not that I don't trust you. )...I can't see the advantage over here, though.

Oh, and if you get the R8 somewhere it can't use it's power, (any good, twisty mountain pass,) I'd be willing to bet the 500 Abarth could hang in there. Pull away or pass...probably not, but hang in there, yes. The R8's not exactly a lightweight.

The thing is though the R8 is 4wd. It will not have traction issues, and its 0-62 is what, nearly twice as quick as the abarth? Sorry but the gap between both vehicles is too great no matter how twisty the road is.

Secondly - Porsche can do it. Porsche IS doing it. Why isn't Audi?

Do you know how much profit porsche makes per car sold? More than any other mass production manufacturer in the world. Audi doesnt make many R8's and the R8 is partly handbuilt also. If audi started making nothing but R8's im sure they could lower production costs to levels similiar to that of porsche.

 

[gator of kana]

What the **** does this even mean? Do you have ANYTHING worthwhile to add to this board?

I'm just mysterious dude, I'm just like that. I don't make sense of everything. I like to speak in riddles

 

[Kent]

The thing is though the R8 is 4wd. It will not have traction issues, and its 0-62 is what, nearly twice as quick as the abarth? Sorry but the gap between both vehicles is too great no matter how twisty the road is.



Do you know how much profit porsche makes per car sold? More than any other mass production manufacturer in the world. Audi doesnt make many R8's and the R8 is partly handbuilt also. If audi started making nothing but R8's im sure they could lower production costs to levels similiar to that of porsche.

I agree with the first comment.
I disagree with the second.

Regarding the first...
The R8 is so superior to the Fiat having the two in a contest is just plain sad. The GTR and the R8 should have met in the final round and the Fiat should have been put against the R26 to decide a third place finisher (unfortunately it doesn't work like that). None the less, I'm keeping track of how people have voted over the course of most rounds in the contest and it's given me real insight to how some members think (especially since I get to read the reasons for that vote). (although I admit, the voting is discouraging as I often feel like contradictions found are evidence of a greater problem with fanboyism and generally sheep-like regurgitation of automotive journalism) [/rant]

As for the second...
I totally disagree.
Audi could not do what Porsche has managed to do... Well, yes, they might be able to do it. However, I'd expect it to take about 40 years of building the R8 before they were truly on par with Porsche's total program. Fact is, Porsche has been doing what they do for a very long time and the product/company we see today is the result of a lengthy evolution.

 

[Stevisiov]

I think we all could understand that. But why waste money on an R8 when you can get a slightly better performance super car for less?

pretty subjective that. faster yes.

I mean its not like the R8 actually is a purpose built supercar nor an everyday supercar

Nope, the R8 is accutally a daily driver, thats right a sports car that you can driver to work and back comfortably, its not exactly got the practicallity of a Pagini

(being a 2 seater MR is not considered practical for everyday use) so what category does it fell into? To me, the R8 is only there just because it can. Even if people were to buy it, its very likely they will buy the R8 as their first supercar.......

I am sorry, but just because it doesnt have 4 seats doesnt mean its not practical, no one said it has to be a family car, its practical on the basis it can be driven comfortably with luxuries and it has sufficient boot, its also high enough to get over speed bumps.

The only reason why people called it a supercar is easy enough to understand. It has a powerful mid engine, seats two people only and has the looks (and price) of one as well......

Its not really a powerful engine by todays supercar standards less powerful than the GTR right, two seats just like an MR2 and the price is nowhere near supercar teritory at least here in the UK, as for the looks well yes it does look very supercarish, thats what I think makes the car so special.

Well I was just exaggerating on that point to be honest. I could say the R8 is an expensive sports car compared to the GT-R, 911, 'Vette, M3, etc.

not really it slots in nicely around the 911 price range although closer to the turbo in the US

and I could also say that the R8 is a cheap supercar compared to the F430, Gallardo, DB9, Gran Turismo, etc. So like I said, where does the R8 fall in which category? Seems like it tries to be both but fails at it......

nah I wouldn't say it tried to compete with the f430 and the likes, tehy are a bit more on the expensive side.

As for the comparison, some people would like to have a good car, while others just buy it because they can. Sure you will see more 911 on the road, but more people would be assure that the 911 is a totally refined car and is so totally (for them at least) to buy one.

refined in which way? a bit of clarification?

Even I would buy a 911 if I had the money. Then there are the people who are a little adventurous. People like you for example, are bored of the contemporary and buy cars out of the norm. If people choose to buy the V8V, they may have to put up with a higher maintenance cost and have to source their parts a little more, not to mentioned the price for actually getting one.......

it seems people will buy the 911 if they have the money, it seems people will buy the R8 if they have the money, both are selling pretty nicely, I wouldn't go as far as saying the Porsche in cheaper to maintain either both dealers will have you paying out your ears in maintainace cost though its hard to say which will be better.

Yes i have gone well over the top in defending the R8 here, but you seem to be quite opinionated but you are lacking a factual background, just so you know the Audi is a mid engined 4wd.

 

[Barracuda]

I'm just mysterious dude, I'm just like that. I don't make sense of everything. I like to speak in riddles

I didn't know stupidity was considered a riddle.

 

[Wolfe]

I've said it before, I'll say it again -- the R8 is like the NSX. Overpriced, underpowered, and many people stop there and move on. But both cars are incredible pieces of engineering that form a greater whole than the sum of their parts.

The R8 handles brilliantly, looks amazing, sounds amazing (if only it were louder), and is supremely comfortable (Clarkson, not a small man, described the interior as "big," and lauded the ride as being so smooth "you can run over anything up to a medium-sized fox and not even notice."). What's more, its AWD makes it an obvious choice for a four-season supercar, its storage space has been praised in comparison to similar cars, and it's easy enough to drive every day.

Yes, the car is more expensive than its rivals and slower than the cars you could get for the same price, but despite this, the R8 remains an excellent car that appeals to both logic and passion. Do you have to appreciate its exterior design to like the car? Probably, yes. But I think it would be a stretch to say that its looks and noise are all it has going for it.

Here's a link to Clarkson's comments on the car, if anyone is interested:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/greatest_hits/article3250587.ece

 

[gator of kana]

I've said it before, I'll say it again -- the R8 is like the NSX. Overpriced, underpowered, and many people stop there and move on. But both cars are incredible pieces of engineering that form a greater whole than the sum of their parts.

As far as I don't like the R8 I think you're going a bit too far there dude, comparing a car focused for the performance to a look-alike Gallardo

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

The R8 is so superior to the Fiat having the two in a contest is just plain sad.

I think most or nearly all of the people are taking price in as a factor.

I didn't know stupidity was considered a riddle.

Maybe, more ignorance than stupidity

As far as I don't like the R8 I think you're going a bit too far there dude

Why because the NSX is from Japan and nothing can compare? Explain, please.

As far as I don't like the R8 I think you're going a bit too far there dude, comparing a car focused for the performance to a look-alike Gallardo

So...pretty much what I said above

 

[forza2.0]

Well a much faster R8 is on the way still, and auto motor und sport said that a audi source told them its blitz' the ring. Infact the time that was quoted was a couple secs faster than the GTR, gator of kana

 

[gator of kana]

Well a much faster R8 is on the way still, and auto motor und sport said that a audi source told them its blitz' the ring. Infact the time that was quoted was a couple secs faster than the GTR, gator of kana

Well the V-spec GT-R is coming too. And for the comparing of the NSX, that's in an entire different class than the R8

Oh and since the GT-R scored 7'29 and the R8 scored 8'04 at the ring, the R8 has to come with a lot more than just power to beat it. I shouldn't be worried, since the NSX-R was faster than the R8 by just one second

 

[Kent]

I think most or nearly all of the people are taking price in as a factor.

I'd be interested to see a break-down of the stats.
Price v. performance and where both cars sit. 👍
That would be very interesting to me simply because I've always enjoyed looking at stats.

 

[forza2.0]

Well the V-spec GT-R is coming too. And for the comparing of the NSX, that's in an entire different class than the R8

Oh and since the GT-R scored 7'29 and the R8 scored 8'04 at the ring, the R8 has to come with a lot more than just power to beat it. I shouldn't be worried, since the NSX-R was faster than the R8 by just one second

well you know, the audi makes the power they say it does. 414hp. The GTR apparently is near 600hp on a good day. Not that it is a bad thing.

BTW, the RS4 has cracked the 'ring in under 8 mins, same engine as the R8, but its heavier and doesnt handle as well. Im sure the R8 can do under 8 mins, conditions permitting.

 

[Smallhorses]

Where are your standards?

FF is universal because it is usable. It is the most practical drivetrain, especially in this segment. Joey's MINI is going to be far more practical than a Clio V6 will ever dream of being. And what can stop a car from being great if it is trying to be a practical small car and not trying to break lap records (which the R8 doesn't do too well, at that).

My standards are right below my original comment if you'd care to read on...

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against Front engine, and Front Drive. My second car was a Citroen AX GT and it was incredible fun. Light, fast, infinitely chuckable and very easy to drive even at 10/10ths.

The new Fiat 500, like the New Beetle before it, has sold it's entire soul to something more heinous than the "Marketing Division Of The Sirius Cybernetics Corporation" if you ask me, just in the name of selling cutesy concepts to people who think that it's cool to buy anything with a retro-look, but who've no idea about the real history of the product that they're buying into.

Fiat have been making the 500 (but labelled as the Cinquecento) in FF form for a while now, and nobody raved about it, since it looked like this:

It's still small, cheap and FF but it didn't have any pretence at being a "wannabe" version of it's (much) older sibling.

The new Fiat 500 is a sell-out to it's true history, and yet one can't really fault Fiat for cashing in on the idea, they're watching BMW & VW do the same thing with the Mini & New Beetle, and even then the Mini isn't sooo bad as the Beetle as it's not had a complete switch around in layouts like the Beetle & 500 have. Anyway, I suppose we shouldn't argue, more money in Fiat's pockets means more money to be funnelled down into making more gorgeous cars like the Fiat Coupe, and indirectly the devlopment of new cars for Alfa Romeo & Ferrari.
(And before anyone points it out I'm aware that Fiat actually spent development money on the staggeringly ugly Multipla. Or did they just sneeze that design out?!!! )

 

[Jim Prower]

Now, here's an interesting thought...won't the R8 be stepping on the Gallardo's toes with the V10 version? I mean, if it's so fast...and we know how fast the Gallardo is...could it threaten the Italian branch of the family?

*Thinks of a reversal of the Godfather Audi commercial, with an Audi Shield in the guy's bed...and the Lambo outside...*

*Also thinks of the thrashing Forza will give him*

 

[Wolfe]

The LP560-4 is pretty damned quick. As far as a power increase goes, Audi has almost 150hp to work with between the LP560 and the R8, and the LP560 is almost 400lbs. lighter. I don't think Lambo would mind Audi building a special R8 that's faster than a normal Gallardo.

By the way, Jim, any thoughts on my take of the R8? It was kinda aimed at you.

As far as I don't like the R8 I think you're going a bit too far there dude, comparing a car focused for the performance to a look-alike Gallardo

And for the comparing of the NSX, that's in an entire different class than the R8

I don't recall pitting the R8 and NSX head-to-head against each other in a contest of performance. I'm also not sure how you figure the NSX -- designed to be a comfortable, reliable, everyday Ferrari alternative, and underpowered thanks to the Gentlemen's Agreement -- is "focused for the performance," or how you got "look-alike Gallardo" out of the R8's platform-sharing. If you meant to describe the cars the other way around, that's even stranger.

If you think the NSX -- an "entry-level supercar" from a manufacturer not known for 2-seater mid-engined sportscars, considered underpowered and overpriced compared to its peers but offering refinement, dependability, and driver-friendly handling -- cannot even begin to be compared to the R8 -- an "entry-level supercar" from a manufacturer not known for 2-seater mid-engined sportscars, considered underpowered and overpriced compared to its peers but offering refinement, dependability, and driver-friendly handling -- and is absolutely nothing like it, that's your illusion opinion.

 

[Moglet]

The new Fiat 500, like the New Beetle before it, has sold it's entire soul to something more heinous than the "Marketing Division Of The Sirius Cybernetics Corporation"

Wat? The new 500 has a soul of it's own, there is no way they could remake the original and keep it 'faithful' as it wouldn't be practical on the modern market.

But a car that manages to turn most heads on the high street and causes people to actually stop and watch you go by, approach you to look at it etc. and always produces a smile definitely has a soul to it. Most people who have seen mine have left words behind and started making sounds instead! It even has a characterful drive.

But then a car like that is voted for with the heart, and if it doesn't float your boat then it doesn't float your boat. Looking at those pictures up there, I would actually say I love the 500. Everytime I look back at my car as I've parked it up I just melt a little bit. I could never get that with the R8!

 

[Smallhorses]

Wat? The new 500 has a soul of it's own, there is no way they could remake the original and keep it 'faithful' as it wouldn't be practical on the modern market.

The point is, the Panda already exists, is practical, and is the soul of the new 500.

The new 500 is this:

A Panda in it's party frock.

 

[Jim Prower]

By the way, Jim, any thoughts on my take of the R8? It was kinda aimed at you.

Honestly...I never got the huge price of the NSX, either, and I still don't. Granted, it handled fantastically, but it needed a turbo or two. And it never really looked that "Art Noveau," but, then again, I was four when it came out. I never knew about it until I was ten or so. To be fair, I feel like it should've been priced with the 300ZX, RX7, and the like, perhaps a little above. And that's kinda how I feel about the R8 at current...it's just a little too pricey, at least where I live.

Now, I don't know how much power the V10 R8 should have...500 seems nice and round, and still 60 off of the LP560....but, here's the thing. How much cheaper will it be than the LP560? Will it be similar in price? Will it be much, much less? Will it be proprotionally correct? I just don't know...

By the way...I want that panda plushie. I want to cuddle it. I dont' care if you were trying to use it to make a point, it was cute.

 

[nissan tuner]

I don't see much appeal in the Audi that I couldn't get in a Porsche Carrera S for a whopping $30,000 less, or for the same price, a Turbo.

And I will still take a 911 GT3 with bucket seats over both the turbo and R8.

 

[Moglet]

The point is, the Panda already exists, is practical, and is the soul of the new 500.

The new 500 is this:

A Panda in it's party frock.

The Panda is a practical city car. The 500 is a stylish, loveable, practical city car that can be personalised more. Just because it's not a completely brand new car, doesn't mean it's just a Panda dressed up. You only have to look at the interior and the massive list of options to see that.

The picture is amazing though!

 

[homeforsummer]

The thing is though the R8 is 4wd. It will not have traction issues, and its 0-62 is what, nearly twice as quick as the abarth? Sorry but the gap between both vehicles is too great no matter how twisty the road is.

Depends who's driving really. If it were motoring journalists, such as those at Evo, used to pushing very, very fast cars around, then a 500 Abarth driven by one of their colleagues may have trouble even spotting which way the supercars went. But put the 500 driven by the average car enthusiast, such as any of us on this forum, versus an R8 driven by it's owner (rich poseur) then I could forsee the owner trying desperately but failing to lose the well-driven Fiat from it's mirrors...

I've said it before, I'll say it again -- the R8 is like the NSX.

I'd forgotten about the NSX... I'd prefer one to an R8

Fiat have been making the 500 (but labelled as the Cinquecento) in FF form for a while now, and nobody raved about it, since it looked like this:

It's still small, cheap and FF but it didn't have any pretence at being a "wannabe" version of it's (much) older sibling.

What people miss is that even though the Cinquecento was a bit tinny, it was actually a very good car indeed, and against it's contemporaries was equally as good as the current model is against it's rivals. At the time the Cinq ran rings around Rover's Mini in most objective disciplines and only the arrival of the Ka knocked it off it's perch as the best city car.

Motoring magazines did rave about it (especially the Sporting model), but it never caught the general attention of the public in the same way (though, it was the best selling city car in the UK for quite a while, and even for a few years while the Ka was out thanks to the Ka's initial poor sales).

 

[Kent]

I didn't know stupidity was considered a riddle.

What the **** does this even mean? Do you have ANYTHING worthwhile to add to this board?

Hey guys, those are Bad Replies. Consider this an informal warning. Both quoted comments are in violation of the AUP and TOS. Failure to adhere to said policies may result in infractions or bannings.

This is also a general warning to the members engaging in discussion... Be careful not to make bad replies. There are many ways to leave a bad reply and I suggest we all avoid bad replies.
Question: What's a bad reply?
Answer: Any post in violation of the formal GTP rules outlined in the Acceptable Use Policy or the Terms of Service agreement. The Common Sense Rules of Posting can also be helpful with answering "what is a bad post?"


Enjoy the discussion!

 

[Moglet]

I'd be interested to see a break-down of the stats.
Price v. performance and where both cars sit. 👍
That would be very interesting to me simply because I've always enjoyed looking at stats.

Audi R8 4.2 FSI Quattro 2d
0-60mph: 4.5secs
414bhp
£78,000 (+£575 delivery and number plate charge)
£78,575
£189 per bhp

Fiat 500 1.4 16v Sport
0-60mph: 10.2 secs
100bhp
£10,900 (Total price OTR)
£109 per bhp

That's pure performance specs, no extras on either model. It doesn't take into account that the Bluetooth system in the Audi is £420 (free in the Fiat) and the Audi tax is £400 a year, the Fiat is £120. But if you buy the R8, price is going to be no real problem I should imagine.

 

[Boz Mon]

Once again, I am going with the 500 because the no diesel option for the R8

 

[Rotary Junkie]

My standards are right below my original comment if you'd care to read on...



Fiat have been making the 500 (but labelled as the Cinquecento) in FF form for a while now, and nobody raved about it, since it looked like this:

It's still small, cheap and FF but it didn't have any pretence at being a "wannabe" version of it's (much) older sibling.

The new Fiat 500 is a sell-out to it's true history, and yet one can't really fault Fiat for cashing in on the idea, they're watching BMW & VW do the same thing with the Mini & New Beetle, and even then the Mini isn't sooo bad as the Beetle as it's not had a complete switch around in layouts like the Beetle & 500 have. Anyway, I suppose we shouldn't argue, more money in Fiat's pockets means more money to be funnelled down into making more gorgeous cars like the Fiat Coupe, and indirectly the devlopment of new cars for Alfa Romeo & Ferrari.
(And before anyone points it out I'm aware that Fiat actually spent development money on the staggeringly ugly Multipla. Or did they just sneeze that design out?!!! )

I'm sorry but it has to be said that the 500 actually continues its history quite well as a small, economical and fairly cheap mode of transportation... The Beetle and 500 were RR and the reincarnations are FF, but how does that matter? RR was cheap and effective then, FF is cheap and effective now.

So really, FWD works better than RR when carrying on the 500's ideals.

 

[Philly]

My standards are right below my original comment if you'd care to read on...

Lol. Just joking about how you were kinda docking the 500 for not being Mid-engined or RWD/AWD and that would indicate that supercars are your "par" and... Nevermind...

Once again, I am going with the 500 because the no diesel option for the R8

Is Audi still thinking about that TDI R8?

Although I'm not sure the lack of a diesel option is something to get all down about with the R8. If we're talking economy, then it really wouldn't matter. Somebody with the cash to buy an R8 probably isn't thinking too hard about fuel mileage and trying to get the most frugal car possible. If you're talking about torque, then that's understandable. Although not all gasoline engines have low torque ratings. VAG's 2.0T is turning out peak torque at only 1800 RPMs, and that torque rating is "higher" than the horsepower number.

 

[exigeracer]

4: I understand the 500's design. I don't understand the R8's. No-one's explained to me what functional purpose that side strake does.

It's a purely visual device used to make the wheelbase look shorter than it is. Simple and functional as that!

 

[Boz Mon]

Lol. Just joking about how you were kinda docking the 500 for not being Mid-engined or RWD/AWD and that would indicate that supercars are your "par" and... Nevermind...



Is Audi still thinking about that TDI R8?

Although I'm not sure the lack of a diesel option is something to get all down about with the R8. If we're talking economy, then it really wouldn't matter. Somebody with the cash to buy an R8 probably isn't thinking too hard about fuel mileage and trying to get the most frugal car possible. If you're talking about torque, then that's understandable. Although not all gasoline engines have low torque ratings. VAG's 2.0T is turning out peak torque at only 1800 RPMs, and that torque rating is "higher" than the horsepower number.

Its more about big power at low revvs.

 

[Tornado]

4: I understand the 500's design. I don't understand the R8's. No-one's explained to me what functional purpose that side strake does.

In this case, that isn't really an argument.