2008 Fuji GP

[Sureboss]

The penalties to Hamilton and Massa, I can understand. The latter colliding with Hamilton and the former forcing Raikkonen a long way off the track. The Bourdais penalty, is completely beyond my comprehension. If Bourdais had a blue flag, then I could understand it, but they were racing for position, and both were in between the white lines! I feel like we are getting to a point in F1 where if contact is made in an overtaking manoeuvre, it is someone's fault, I think we've lost the term Racing Incident.

 

[Racer_LP]

Firstly, Raikkonen gained no advantage whatsoever by going wide, apart from the advantage of staying in the race rather than turning where Hamilton and heikki should've and colliding.

It's alot different to Spa, that was a chicane where as this is just a right hander, with no advantage to be gained by going wide, whereas at chicanes drivers cut it as close to the curbs as possible because it's faster.

In the first part of your post you say why this is just the same as in Spa:

If Kimi had turned in where he normally would have done, he would have collided with either Lewis or Heikki.
If Lewis would have turned in where he normally would have done at Spa, he would have collided with Kimi.

Only difference is that you don't cut a corner by going wide here.

IMO, in both cases the guy on the inside is too aggresive (Kimi at Spa, Lewis at Fuji) and he should get the penalty (or none and just call them racing incidents). If Lewis hadn't been penalised at Spa I would've agreed with this penalty, but that's not the case.

The second reason why I don't agree is because Massa (only) got the same penalty for pushing Lewis at turn 11. He should have faced the fact that he lost his position because of his own mistake. Instead he cuts the next corner, not to defend his position, cause the already lost it, but to push Lewis into a spin. IMO this is much worse than what Lewis did and should be punnished more heavily.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I have a quick nap and the FIA strike again. Does anybody here think Bourdais did anything wrong at all?

Massa has gained 5 points in Valencia, Spa and now Fuji through incorrectly applied penalties.

I've called them the Ferrari Interests Authority before but that's a joke of cause.

I genuinely do not think the FIA are doing this on purpose but it is making them look guilty of trying to fix the championship through their own total incompetence.

Here's hoping that Kubica, the only driver without any controversy surrounding him, can take this title with a couple of race wins.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Look, when the marshalls make a decision, they have to do the best they can with what they've got, and not every decision is going to be supported by the fans. It's easy for us to go back over and analyse every frame of the footage and discuss it at length, but I'm willing to bet that the marshals don't use the ITV broadcast for their decisions. It could well be that they have soemthing we don't, but suggesting that the FIA is conspiring to aid one team is moronic in the extreme.

 

[Metar]

Fernando Alonso. I'm simply stunned by the performance he pulled off today. Just amazing stuff. Kubica's driving was also quite incredible - the battle with Raikkonen must've been tough, but he held on. It's amazing.

I'm glad mustang427 appears to have left, though.

 

[the Interceptor]

Look, when the marshalls make a decision, they have to do the best they can with what they've got, and not every decision is going to be supported by the fans. It's easy for us to go back over and analyse every frame of the footage and discuss it at length, but I'm willing to bet that the marshals don't use the ITV broadcast for their decisions. It could well be that they have soemthing we don't, but suggesting that the FIA is conspiring to aid one team is moronic in the extreme.

The stewards do look into the available footage right after the incident. As opposed to soccer, where the referee has to make a decision on the spot, these guys will evaluate all sources availabe for their decision. Therefore, they can and should be held responsible for their actions, which do not only seem very random at times, but also often favour Ferrari in some way. It's your decision to believe it or not, but when even Massa fans come and say that it was not fair to penalise Bourdais for this incident, questions need to be asked.

 

[kamelin-nahka]

What a race.. Great driving from alonso.. he did it again.
Kubica drived pretty well too. Why the heikki´s car done something like that
He could win the hole race.. Raikkoinen drived pretty normal. Good that he dont got
so bad luck whit him, that he got earlyer races.
And massa and hamilton.. i dont say anything

 

[slackbladder]

Well, this was a major foul-up of a race! Good for Alonso and particularly Kubica.
As for the Stewards decisions....nearly all the decisions were bad. I understand Massa's for hitting Hamilton (he was completely off the track when he cut the corner and tagged Hamilton), Hamiltons...how many times have we seen cars lock their brakes into the first corner and take avoiding action? First time I've ever seen someone getting a penalty for what is essentially a normal part of F1 racing.
As for Bourdais..no idea why.
Also, when Massa overtook Webber he was in the pit lane exit at the time, completely past the white line defining the exit. Is that right? Seems incredibly dangerous. What if there had been a car exiting the pit lane at the time? Are you allowed to race through the pit lane exit? I was under the impression you were'nt.

Anyway, Hamilton lost his head at the first corner. There was no need to try to beat Raikkonen so soon. He needs to be a bit cooler. Same goes for Massa. I guess it makes for an interesting final two races but really I'm no longer a fan of F1. It really is a circus.

 

[daan]

Also, when Massa overtook Webber he was in the pit lane exit at the time, completely past the white line defining the exit. Is that right? Seems incredibly dangerous. What if there had been a car exiting the pit lane at the time? Are you allowed to race through the pit lane exit? I was under the impression you were'nt.

James Allen was going on about that as well. You should know better than to believe him.

Drivers are not allowed to cross the line when they are leaving the pits. Drivers driving on the track are allowed to use it as it is part of the track.

There is absolutely no issue of any rule being broken there.

----------

Massa's penalty was justified.
Hamilton's penalty was (sort of) justified
Bourdais' penalty is just unfathomable. Where was he supposed to go? Massa turned into him.

 

[Muzaffar]

The penalties to Hamilton and Massa, I can understand. The latter colliding with Hamilton and the former forcing Raikkonen a long way off the track. The Bourdais penalty, is completely beyond my comprehension. If Bourdais had a blue flag, then I could understand it, but they were racing for position, and both were in between the white lines! I feel like we are getting to a point in F1 where if contact is made in an overtaking manoeuvre, it is someone's fault, I think we've lost the term Racing Incident.

QFT. 👍
But I don't get the situation really. I don't think either of them were at fault. Bourdais just came out of the pits and take the inside line as everyone does, and yet Massa was the smart one and decides to overtake Bourdais at the first corner instead of shooting past him at the short straight before the 2nd corner. Its ironic how the FIA deals with these things and yet fails to understand what racing is actually about......

Here's hoping that Kubica, the only driver without any controversy surrounding him, can take this title with a couple of race wins.

Well just to quote your earlier statement:

To quote Murray Walker, anything can happen in F1 and usually does.

With only 2 races left and a gap of 12 points, anything can happen really. Kimi was 17 points behind Hamilton and Alonso at this time last year, and he won the last two races and clinch the championship while both Hamilton and Alonso trip and fell over each other.

 

[Touring Mars]

Also, when Massa overtook Webber he was in the pit lane exit at the time, completely past the white line defining the exit. Is that right? Seems incredibly dangerous. What if there had been a car exiting the pit lane at the time? Are you allowed to race through the pit lane exit? I was under the impression you were'nt.

Exactly what I thought...

I'd be interested to see the replay of the Bourdais incident again - if there is a suggestion that he turned into Massa, then that could be the issue, but it looked like Massa didn't give SB enough room to make the corner for which SB already had the inner line fairly and squarely...

Although it is a controversial decision - and I feel that Massa deserved a much bigger penalty for his altercation with Hamilton - I simply don't buy the FIA/Ferrari bias thing at all. There is no doubt that Hamilton has had a rough season and that Massa seems to have benefited overall, but Hamilton has made his own mistakes and Massa being the benefactor is down to him also being at the sharp end. As with any conspiracy, I'd like to see the evidence - and as far as I can see, there ain't any...

 

[Metar]

Not to mention that even after Massa spun away, Bourdais was almost at a complete standstill, probably trying to avoid Massa's car.

 

[Lee]

Here's hoping Alonso can do something from 4th. 👍

Guy did good.

 

[AdamW]

doyourace: it's not an ITV broadcast, it's an FIA broadcast. FIA controls the coverage and provides the exact same feed to every broadcaster, all they can change is the commentary. So it's an FIA broadcast, and of course it's used in determining marshals' decisions.

daan: I believe the contention isn't that he was in pits but that he was, technically speaking, off the track (which you're not supposed to do as part of a racing maneuver). It's not about the pit lane but about the white lines that officially define the edge of the track: at Fuji, on the home straight, they're a car's width and a bit from the edge of the actual tarmac. So where Massa was when he overtook was not technically part of the circuit. It's a bit of a legalistic argument, though. Personally I wouldn't penalize him for it, though it was a really dumb move.

themoose and doyourace: Hamilton's car was damaged by Massa's shunt, that's why he was off the pace for the rest of the race.

 

[Only_in_f1]

doyourace: it's not an ITV broadcast, it's an FIA broadcast. FIA controls the coverage and provides the exact same feed to every broadcaster, all they can change is the commentary. So it's an FIA broadcast, and of course it's used in determining marshals' decisions.

I thought it was a Fuji TV broadcast hence why the picture quality was fuzzy as they run an NTSC format and we use a PAL format.

 

[RACECAR]

doyourace: it's not an ITV broadcast, it's an FIA broadcast. FIA controls the coverage and provides the exact same feed to every broadcaster, all they can change is the commentary. So it's an FIA broadcast, and of course it's used in determining marshals' decisions.

Actually, its been clearly pointed out that Fuji Tv was providing the broadcast for the Japanese GP.

 

[daan]

daan: I believe the contention isn't that he was in pits but that he was, technically speaking, off the track (which you're not supposed to do as part of a racing maneuver). It's not about the pit lane but about the white lines that officially define the edge of the track: at Fuji, on the home straight, they're a car's width and a bit from the edge of the actual tarmac. So where Massa was when he overtook was not technically part of the circuit. It's a bit of a legalistic argument, though. Personally I wouldn't penalize him for it, though it was a really dumb move.

Webber was pushing him out that way though. He wouldn't have needed to be as close to the line (I don't think all 4 wheels crossed it anyway) if Webber wasn't attempting to block him.

 

[nissan tuner]

I hope speed is showing a re-run today or on monday. I missed the race

 

[Lofasz]

My view on the penalties:

Hamilton got what he deserved, braking too late into turn one.

Massa got what he deserved, cutting the chicane (that's all 4 wheels off track) and running into Hamilton.

Bourdais got screwed by the FIA. He was fighting for position, and was as close to the inside of the corner as possible. Massa made the mistake of driving too close to him, while trying to pass on the outside. IMO, this racing incedent required no penalty. Just another bad call by the FIA, to strengthen the perception of a bias towards Ferrari. Another freebie for Massa, IMO.

 

[Ardius]

well, there goes Kovalainen... guess i was right with my engine failure.

Looking forward to Shanghai where def. Hamilton will start with a new Engine since the defective one that Kovalainen had.

Lets look forward and remember my words

Chris

Yeah, you're going to be my magic ball for F1 now 👍
Or perhaps I jinxed McLaren's luck?

Good race, excellent performance from Fernando, and even more shockingly, a good performance from Piquet! He came out of nowhere! Not enough to save his F1 status methinks, and I think a bit of luck was involved with T1, but good race for him anyway.
Hamilton further cements his reputation for having no head when it comes to pressure - he'll never ever be champion imo, if he does become champion, it will be from the speed of the McLaren and the ill-luck of his opponents.
Massa also looses his head, un-characteristicly for this season.
Bourdais....I feel so sorry for that guy now, its almost to Alex Zanardi levels of pity. Once again impressed enough in my opinion to deserve another drive in F1 next year, I really do hope Toro Rosso have decided to keep him on next year, especially if Renault decide to keep Piquet, who has done far less.

I demand petitions and all the rants and that for Bourdais! This penalty is even more rediculous than the Hamilton one (Spa)!

 

[PeterJB]

That race wasn't disastrous for Hamilton, he still has a five-point lead. It's a geat shame that Bourdais lost his points, he really deserved them.

 

[Alex.]

So at the moment, which drivers will be on 2nd engines at the final round at Interlagos?

 

[Metar]

Alonso will be on a fresh one - he said in the interview that he could conserve it a little for China near the end of the race.

 

[Ardius]

Glock will be on a fresh one too, after his engine change for this GP.
Kovalainen will be on a used-engine, as he used his free engine swap for Singapore.
Massa and Webber will be on a fresh engine because they had their 'joker' engine change for the Italian GP.

I can't remember when anyone else used their free changes.
Anyone who hasn't used their free engine change will be on a used-engine for Brazil, and I'm betting those drivers will play their 'joker' engine for that race.

Edit: I've been looking into these engine changes, and it suddenly strikes me as odd that some drivers are on 2nd-use engines at different times to other people even though they hadn't used an engine change yet. How is this possible if all engines have to be used for 2 races? Did some teams start the Australian GP with used-engines?

 

[Metar]

Kimi's engine imploded at Valencia - since then, Spa & Monza, Singapore & Fuji, so Shanghai and Interlagos. Used engine for Kimi. I don't think Hamilton had any retirements this year, nor an engine-change - so he can probably use his joker on the last race.

 

[Ardius]

Kimi's engine imploded at Valencia - since then, Spa & Monza, Singapore & Fuji, so Shanghai and Interlagos. Used engine for Kimi. I don't think Hamilton had any retirements this year, nor an engine-change - so he can probably use his joker on the last race.

Although, didn't Raikkonen have an engine change after the French GP?

I can't be sure about Hamilton's engine, because seemingly, some drivers have started the season on used-engines, because apparently Raikkonen's engine at France was a new one, which doesn't make sense if he started the season with a new engine and switched every 2 races....

 

[Cultlife]

You can't use the joker change on the final race of the season - 'tis in the rules.

I think they're hanging onto them incase they have a blowup in practice/qualifying at China.

 

[Metar]

Well, he had an engine-failure at Australia, and one at Valencia. He's used his joker-engine in France, but had to switch no matter what after Valencia...

 

[Ardius]

Well, he had an engine-failure at Australia, and one at Valencia. He's used his joker-engine in France, but had to switch no matter what after Valencia...

Ah yeah, I forgot he retired in Australia that makes sense now.

That means the rest of the field will be definitely on used-engines, unless there are some more engine changes I've forgotten.

Reliability hasn't been a big issue with most of the teams, only really with Ferrari, so its a bit of a non-issue to be honest.

 

[Metar]

If I recall correctly, at least one of the Red Bulls will be on a new engine - Coulthard did a three-race stint with one of his engines (well, he crashed rather early out of two of them), and they said it was in order to have only one Red Bull car on a fresh engine each race.