2008 Grand Prix Of Germany - Hockenheim Returns -

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Ok, well when I go online for gt5p (if I ever do) I'll make sure to push the other guy to the edge of the track. đź‘Ť

I only caught the end of the race...
 
V1P3R
Ok, well when I go online for gt5p (if I ever do) I'll make sure to push the other guy to the edge of the track. đź‘Ť

I only caught the end of the race...
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If you have position (as in are ahead of them) and following the line results in the other guy having to either back off or run wide, then its the call they make.

I've been in Massa's position on-line more than a few line (because I'm far from quick) and certainly if the pass was done cleanly and the other guy gets ahead of me on the line I will yeald or run wide to avoid taking him off.

The contact between LH and FM was min imal to say the least in that pass.


Regards

Scaff
 
They were side-by-side. Admittedly, at the Spitzkehre, there's nothing to do once you're on the outside of the hairpin, but Massa was accelerating equally fast.. By that logic, Alonso could've legally bumped Kimi out of his way when Vettel blocked him, or Rubens could've pushed Jensen off the track when they were side by side.


Something which made this race very enjoyable for me (even though it played against the one I rooted for) is the "chain-effect" at Hockenheim. In most tracks, you make an error, or a mis-played overtake, and you're vulnerable for that corner and straight. At the Hockenheim, we've seen, it's a chain - a mistake at one corner, and you're helpless three corners later. We've seen it when Trulli and Alonso charged at Kubica - and while both pulled back to the line in the right time, it was enough for Raikkonen to close the gap. That's what Rosberg was aiming to do when Button and Coulthard were battling - he never really attempted to close the gap properly and attempt a pass, but rather waited for Coulthard to choose and aggressive line, get blocked, and then pass both cars. It almost worked for him, too...
 
Im not as dissapointed with Massa and Raikkonen as many of you would seem to be, Im more dissapointed in that car. I find it hard to believe that Hamilton is that much faster than those two. Looks like ferrari may have fallen behind.
 
:banghead:
A podium for Renault! But alas, it was Piquet...
Some utterly tough luck for 2x WDC Fernando Alonso getting jumped whilst coming up short behind Vettel, in the hairpin, or where ever. Nice race though, being back at Hockenheim. What a disgusting season, though, for Alonso. I share his pain.
Was good to see the "King" in attendance, Ferrari need him to figure out why they aren't stomping a mudhole in McLaren's butt with two fast cars and two fast drivers...:confused:
 
So Lewis Hamilton goes back-to-back and takes sole ownership of Championship Leader (for now). I'm glad that Timo Glock were alright after his scary crash. I'm never excited about crashes. Just glad he's alright.

Up next is the Hungaroring(?).
 
Yep, next is the Hungaroring - I like that track. First, though, we've got a test at Jerez, with slicks again. Supposedly, Honda will run a prototype of next year's RA09 with KERS. Another job well failed for Mosley and the FIA however, since Honda engineers already hinted they're at 75% of today's downforce levels - while Mosley hoped for 50%.

Timo's crash, I'm sorry to say, was the most exciting one I've seen. No real concern for the driver's welfare - he was obviously alive and well - but a very photogenic suspension-failure and a spectacular impact with the wall - and then across the track again, with the view of a charging BMW behind.

And Ferrari, their car was just slower. Absolutely nothing the drivers can do about it - both Kimi and Felipe said they lacked grip (note Massa's uberhuman onboards in qualifying - countersteer at every corner), and Domenicali stated that the brakes on Felipe's car overheated in the final stages of the race - which might explain why Lewis was able to outbrake him that easily.
 
overall i think it was a good race. not greatly entertaining but good race. some good battles midfield.

i dont know whether im disappointed with the 2 ferrari drivers or the cars themselves at this particular race. Masa looked to give Hamilton the easy way in on the hairpin in the final laps but yet he couldnt even at least catch up to piquet. raikonnen well..... had a good bit of luck for a sec when he got on the softs and had less fuel but still wound up in a not very satisfactory position for himself.

alonso..... yea bad luck lol. getting forced off the line exiting pits by vettel and then gaining then losing spots. for some reason i was never really a fan of the guy but hes def. a fast driver imo, just not in a fast car.

Biggest story in the race i think was Piquets UNBELIEVABLE luck. honestly wow, how well could things work out from being that far back in the pack. congrats to him for 2nd but even though he turned in some pretty fast laps from what i remember, i dont think it was a drive to rave about but more so luck to rave about.
 
Again, all three Ferrari sources - Massa, Domenicali and Baldiserri - noted overheating brakes, which would've forced Massa to brake slightly earlier than usual, which allowed Hamilton to slot himself in. Massa's defense was still weak - he picked the outside line, for some reason - but that's what all the others did, too.

As for not catching up with Piquet... Raikkonen, Heidfeld and pretty much everyone else bar Hamilton didn't close the gap, either. Heidfeld was close to Massa, but neither gained anything substantial.
 
Greycap
Stupid me here thinking that team orders were forbidden, and that McLaren lets the drivers battle for the positions.
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"In order to become Energy Star compliant, he selected 5th gear instead of second for better fuel economy."

"He flicked the ignition switch to make sure it was working. Can't be too cautious."

"We wanted him to quantify brake pedal pressure by pressing both feet on it."

"His car was to become underweight, so we asked him to pick up some marbles on the side of the track."
 
Pupik
"In order to become Energy Star compliant, he selected 5th gear instead of second for better fuel economy."

"He flicked the ignition switch to make sure it was working. Can't be too cautious."

"We wanted him to quantify brake pedal pressure by pressing both feet on it."

"His car was to become underweight, so we asked him to pick up some marbles on the side of the track."
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:lol::lol::lol:
 
Just because you brought it up - I never understood the "picking up marbles". Is the weight of that bit of rubber that sticks to your tyres really that substantial? More than a kilo? I know it's a joke in this case, but sometimes they do mention it on the radio after the race..

Also, if a driver finishes the race, and crashes out or breaks down on the cooldown lap into the pits - what happens to him? Punished for not making it into the checks? Declared underweight because he couldn't be verified?
 
Metar
Also, if a driver finishes the race, and crashes out or breaks down on the cooldown lap into the pits - what happens to him? Punished for not making it into the checks? Declared underweight because he couldn't be verified?
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Would probably be treated the same as someone who fails to finish, but is classified because he completed 90% of the race.
 
The race was looking a bit Schumacheresque (read: dull) but the safety car really brought it alive. Piquet, whilst lucky, resisted the pressure from being in the lead and didn't throw it off the road; he got the car home without making a mistake, which is a vast improvement from the Nelson of a few months back.

Good to see battles all through the field. Not looking forward to the Hungaroring, because it's the Hungaroring.
 
But we can all look forward to being reminded of how Lewis might do what Jenson did 2 years ago. I hope James Allen has a box of kleenex nearby.
 
Metar
Just because you brought it up - I never understood the "picking up marbles". Is the weight of that bit of rubber that sticks to your tyres really that substantial? More than a kilo? I know it's a joke in this case, but sometimes they do mention it on the radio after the race..
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I can't imagine it's more than a kilogram; rubber is not very dense. I suppose the grooved tires pick up a bit more than slick tires could. Supposedly Alain Prost's car was short by 2kg (just under 540kg) after winning the 1985 San Marino GP; he ran out of fuel on the slow-down lap, which may have cost him that precious weight. The engine also consumed a little too much oil.

Metar
Also, if a driver finishes the race, and crashes out or breaks down on the cooldown lap into the pits - what happens to him? Punished for not making it into the checks? Declared underweight because he couldn't be verified?
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They have to pick up the car eventually to return it, and I think all finishers are checked for basic dimensions. Any car/driver/team that suddenly has a giant-killing performance, or dominates a little abnormally is probably disassembled as much as possible.

It's rare that cars crash at or after the finish line, but it happens.

nostalgia3.jpg


Edit: I just noticed that there were 16 drivers on the lead lap at the finish of this weekend's race; that is probably an F1 record.
 
Ferrari have some work to do :( But the race was very good watch, seen quite lot of overtaking :) but safetycar rules arent good, its a 'sport' and piquet did not really deserve the podium, maybe better back to the old system, with out closing the pitlane :) its not that now there is no 'chaos' in the pit. Which was the reason for the rule chance as i can remember?
 
Pupik, and the one who wasn't on the lead lap, was because of a strategic mistake. Though the others were on the lead due to the safety-car, and there MUST have been a race with a late-lap safety car where all were on the lead?

2kgs short - was he disqualified? That's one small margin...
 
Metar
2kgs short - was he disqualified? That's one small margin...
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But you gotta draw the line somewhere.

I think the marbles matter is literally a matter of "every little helps". the cars are made to be as close to the weight limit as possible, but if something falls off, extra wear on the board, tyres wear down too low etc. Too many variables in such a tightly rules competition.
 
Luca di Montezemolo
"We need to understand why we were slower in Germany as never before this year."
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Maybe Massa took team orders from Ron Dennis, too? :lol:

Dennis: "Massa, you suck...know your role and move over!"


Other sources of funny:

Nelson Piquet
“I am obviously very happy! [...]This second place today is a great reward for the whole team.”

Fernando Alonso
“We were simply out of luck today, but we must now look forward and concentrate on the next Grand Prix.”

Pat Symonds, Executive Director of Engineering
“Today we were lucky, but I still believe we made our own luck [...] I’d like to congratulate him and hope this is the start of a better time for him.”
 
I thought all liquids (fuel, oil, water) were drained after the race before the cars being weighed, so running out of fuel or burning oil shouldn't matter in that case.
 
Blake can probably clarify, but I believe there's a minimum weight for car without fluids, and car with fluids and driver. Or something to that effect.

[EDIT] Quick check...
formula1.com
(currently 600kg including driver, except during qualifying when it is 605kg).
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mipuumal
I thought all liquids (fuel, oil, water) were drained after the race before the cars being weighed, so running out of fuel or burning oil shouldn't matter in that case.
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Metar
I'd assume, if they're already counting the driver as part of the car, why wouldn't they count the oils?
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The rules were different then; remember there was no refueling from 1984-1993, once the cars were taken to parc fermé after race, they were weighed and dimensions inspected. It was not uncommon in 1988 (with the 150-liter fuel limit), to see cars stop by the side of the track, just after the flag dropped.

Although in the early 80's teams starting topping off their "water cooled brakes" with water ballast. The water-injection systems disappeared around 1983-84, since there was no way to prove how it was being used. So all re-fueling was banned, not because of an inherent safety flaw nor because of flash fires, but because it was impossible to prove what liquid was going into the car, and for what purpose. Of course, Tyrrell didn't get the memo...

The driver's weight was not included as the weight of the car until the mid-1990s.
 
ExigeEvan
But you gotta draw the line somewhere.

I think the marbles matter is literally a matter of "every little helps". the cars are made to be as close to the weight limit as possible, but if something falls off, extra wear on the board, tyres wear down too low etc. Too many variables in such a tightly rules competition.
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If something falls off you will not be penalised for it when the car is checked, we had a discussion on this one when Kimi's exhaust fell off and I checked the regulations.

Extra wear on the board (Plank) would not be enough to push the car underweight, but you would almost certainly get disqualified for running the car too low (which is the purpose of the plank and why its checked).


Regards

Scaff
 
Autosport
Webber says safety car rules 'a joke'

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, July 22nd 2008, 09:22 GMT


Mark Webber believes that Nelson Piquet's second place in the German Grand Prix provides further evidence that Formula One's safety car rules are 'a joke'.

The Red Bull Racing driver says that the way Piquet lucked into the best result of his F1 career almost makes a mockery of the sport, and hopes that it acts as a spur for teams and the FIA to make changes to the regulations that they have been mulling over for several weeks.

"The safety car threw up a bizarre result and I think the rules are a joke," Webber wrote in his column for the BBC.

"I was happy for Renault's Nelson Piquet that he finished second, given the start to the season he has had, but F1 is more professional and better than the rules we have for the safety car at the moment.

"It looks very amateurish when the guy who nearly wins the race starts 17th and only overtakes one car, Kazuki Nakajima's Williams, because he spun. For me, that is not what Formula One is all about.

"Nelson would be the first to agree that it was not a fully deserved second place. None of the drivers like the current system - we don't like to get flukey results.

"The teams and the FIA are trying to find a better way with the safety car but they are making heavy weather of it."
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Some might accuse him of being bitter, and also playing the team game (Renault now being 1 point behind RBR), but I think he's got a point about only passing one car and yet lucking into second. However, as an F1 fan, I love these sort of flukey results - it provides varity and spices the show up a bit.

As an aside, whilst I'm posting, the German race result means that only Toro Rosso and Force India are podiumless this year. The podium trio of Hamilton, Piquet and Massa was also the youngest average age ever - 24 years, 7 months and 1 day. (In case you're wondering, no I didn't work that out myself - the average age bit came from Autosport too.)
 
Random results always make things more interesting - be it a top-driver sent to the back, or a crappy driver suddenly up front.

And frankly, I don't see what the fuss is all about. I've never understood if it's really in the rulebook or not, but I've seen NASCAR fields bunch up for a lap or two before the "dive into the pits", and the same with the unified IRL. It makes perfect sense to me that yes, racing into the pits can be very dangerous. Sure, there's still a big scramble in the pits - but that's at 80km/h at worst! There's a difference between 20 cars lining up at 80km/h behind each other, and 20 cars racing at 200km/h out of the final corner, braking into a road barely wide enough for one car, and heading into the pits.

Piquet was lucky - but it wasn't a fluke. Pat Symmonds saw Timo's crash, knew the safety-car would come out, and called Piquet into the pits before the SC was announced. That's a fair bit of luck (the other Renault, for example, was past point where you can pit), but also a sound understanding of the rules - which culminated in the correct decision, made in the few seconds between the crash and the safety-car announcement.

Yes, in my opinion, one who starts 17th and passes a car that spun shouldn't reach the podium - but I'll accept that if that guy got that spot with some brilliant tactics and not "just" luck. Or when that guy was absolute crap throughout the season, suddenly manages to stay ahead of a BMW and a Ferrari, as well as setting a fastest lap that beat his double-champion teammate. I'm not a Piquet-adorer, but I was happy he got that podium.
 
F1 has always been about tactics, skill, endurance, and luck.

This wasn't NASCAR-ized.
 
If Piquet got there entirely by luck, how did he manage to maintain such a lead to Massa and Heidfeld? There was a little bit of skill in there, but whatever, I agree that the safety car thing needs sorting out though.
 

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