2009 Belgian Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Peter, Aug 25, 2009.

  1. Greycap

    Greycap Premium

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    Twenty-thirty miles an hour more? Judging by that I believe you've never driven a car in a situation where you're twenty-thirty miles an hour faster than your opponent. See the picture below.

    [​IMG]

    As you can very clearly see, Kubica is about a car length in front when Räikkönen turns into the corner. Five seconds later he's zooming past at perhaps five car lengths away and seven seconds after that the gap is still the same. Had there been a speed difference of 20 mph through all these twelve seconds he would have been a good 20 car lengths behind Räikkönen when entering Eau Rouge. Now he was well in front which quite clearly indicates no speed advantage for the Ferrari.

    About "no intention to make the corner", 180 degrees of lock can very clearly be seen in the pictures. That's about as much as the wheels turn in a F1 car outside Monaco. Why turn that much at all if the intention was to take a wider line?

    And your point that the tyres would have cleaned before braking into Les Combes has one huge flaw in it. Yes they would but before that braking he had to take Eau Rouge, arguably still the hardest corner in the series, with dirty tyres and lack of downforce in Kubica's slipstream. Hardly a desirable situation.

    Interesting that overcooking it into a corner and thus cutting the chicane is acceptable but going too fast into a corner and thus running wide isn't. Just about as interesting as you foaming about "double ****ing standards" on the previous page. Hey, it's no secret that you seem to hate Ferrari and Räikkönen in particular but you could at least agree with yourself! :lol:
     
  2. Ardius

    Ardius

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    By the way, did anyone else catch Trulli's radio in the race? I could have sworn there was a bit where they told him he had to overtake Badoer and he replied with "WHAT ARE YOU CRAZY? HES TOO FAST!!".
    Up there with his "I'm pushing like a hell!" from Turkey 2008.
     
  3. Ian Poole

    Ian Poole

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    Number one, i can't see the pictures :)

    Secondly, i never once said that what Rubens did was acceptable but Rubens didn't gain anything from the situation other than damage to his nose and tyres. He was at the back practicaly anyway so how could he gain if he couldn't gain to start with?

    Thirdly, i don't hate Ferrari, i just don't like them, there is a big difference in the words. I have respect for all F1 drivers because they do one of the hardest sports in the world. Some are better than others and some (Badoer) don't quite have it.

    One thing that you do have to agree with me on is this; if Kimi didn't fly off the track and use the far end of the world, he would have been down near the back and might not have won the race but because he used the big poece of tarmac on the outside, he gained the advantage and used that to his advantage.
     
  4. zed300

    zed300

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    Both Kimi and Jenson fought the wheelspin for 50-70 metres, sure big, big advantge.
    The racing line is 1-1/2 cars wide, Kimi was 5 car widths wide in the marbles, and stayed in there for 150 metres.
    I don't believe the LONG way round, is an advantage.


    Hamiton was trying to keep out of trouble and cut Alergusari off. Post 317 wil show it, time 3.01 Lewis clearly turns left to apparently avoid Button and cuts the Torro Rosso off. Who's the rookie?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  5. SUPER NUMBBER

    SUPER NUMBBER

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    Pardon me, but on the video posted, am I the only one who sees 3 cars in front of Kimi going into the corner (0:59), and 2 when he goes back in?? :odd:

    No advantage, huh?

    I personally wouldn't blame Alguersuari for trying to pull a smart move on people who are trying to play it safe....wait, who am I kidding??? Alguersuari was MILES AWAY FROM HAMILTON WHEN BUTTON GOT HIT (SEE 2:14, SAME VID), WHICH MEANS HE DIDN'T EVEN SLOW DOWN FOR THE ACCIDENT!
     
  6. Peter

    Peter (Banned)

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    :lol: I heard that too, but he's right, on the straights.
     
  7. NapoleonMikey

    NapoleonMikey

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    i officiate high school football part time and this argument really does seem like how the coaches act. this one play (in this case one turn) let the other team (in this case kimi) win the game. and its always early on in the game. so all those other plays (in this case laps) didnt mean anything. it didnt allow the other team (in this case fisi) to score (pass). really its amazing how one play early on wins the whole game. and this one play didnt even give him the win it only kept him from having someone take him out. he entered the turn in 3rd and came out of the turn in 3rd. so whats the big deal? fisi was clearly the faster driver so he should have had no problems winning the race but couldnt deliver so clearly its all because of this one turn is that what we are saying?
     
  8. ROAD_DOGG33J

    ROAD_DOGG33J Premium

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    From re-watching the start, I can see that Trulli got held up by another car. By taking the run-off Kimi was able to get past him. Though I bet they were advised about taking the run-off at the start. Otherwise I think somebody would file a protest.

    But it doesn't really look like Kimi was forced out, but the risk of a penalty might outweigh the risks of a crash.
     
  9. SUPER NUMBBER

    SUPER NUMBBER

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    Pretty much. Which is why stewards should enforce the rules more consistently, not decide at random when to do their job (or how).
     
  10. niky

    niky Moderator

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    I don't see what the boggle is.

    Taking the run-off is never the fastest line. Thus, there's no rule against taking it. You're in the marbles. You have no grip. Unless the FIA invent a rule stating that you're automatically disqualified for every off-track excursion, nothing is going to happen.

    Now... if this were Lewis Hamilton we were talking about... they'd invent a rule that states that if you take the run-off, you'd have to cede position to the driver behind you, do fifty push-ups at the end of the race, and lose all championship points for the race.

    But, of course, this isn't Lewis, so it won't happen. :lol:

    (By the way... I agree that Lewis deserved a penalty for overtaking by cutting the chicane last year... but the penalty they invented where he can't overtake for at least one corner after cutting a chicane, even after ceding a position to the driver he overtook (which made him lose momentum, making the said overtake even more impressive) was total BS.)
     
  11. prisonermonkeys

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    I think the idea behind the rule about giving way is so that you show you got no advanatag from it. You can run wide over the chicane an still get an advantage even if you don't pass because you're closer to the other guy.
     
  12. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    You must either be blind or biased to think Rubens gained no advantage by using the run off road :lol: He passed 3 cars by taking the run off road...which he would have had to take regardless of the accident ahead, as he braked too late coming into Les Combes and ran wide on cold tires. So, how is passing 3 cars, including Mark Webber (a Championship contender), fair? Especially when he snagged 2 points that day and theoretically stole 2 points from Webber, which could possibly cost him the Championship come Abu Dhabi.

    Also, I really don't think Kimi was trying to gain an advantage in position by using the run off area, but more or less he was trying to avoid a stupid accident at the start of the race that we so commonly see :ouch: I think Kimi really wanted to win this won and staying on the tarmac in his situation could have possibly cost him his race. I'm not saying what EITHER of them did was right...but come on, you need to clean your spectacles :lol:
     
  13. Stang245

    Stang245

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    I'd say that by the manner Kimi took off the grid behind the 'slow' Brawn and darted up to the front that nothing, including Fisi on pole, was going to hold him back. For the first time in a while he was on form.
     
  14. niky

    niky Moderator

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    Lewis still ceded the position. If you're in front, and you give the position back, that means you're letting off the gas enough to let him pass. Slipstream or not, that's not the optimum way to set up an overtake in the next corner. Kimi baked the next corner, pure and simple, and Lewis passed him.

    Of course, we've had that argument ad nauseum over the past year... :lol: ...I think this one is more interesting, because it is a similar situation and advantage... but unless the FIA change their rules... or decide that the the turn in question is a reverse chicane :lol: , Kimi's standings are in no danger.

    Actually, I think the situation is similar here... in the sense that Kimi only benefited from the move because he had a superior car, and didn't suffer as much of a penalty in speed due to the off-track excursion... he admitted that he only overtook Fisichella because of KERS, and it might have been that which kept him in the mix coming off the run-off... not any momentum advantage due to the maneuver itself.
     
  15. SUPER NUMBBER

    SUPER NUMBBER

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    Interesting exercise in situational comparison :idea::

    The moment I read this I was amazed how much it mirrored my own arguments last year.
     
  16. the Interceptor

    the Interceptor Premium

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    I'm still shuffeled about this. When I saw it live, I thought that Kimi clearly had an advantage. To my surprise, neither the commentators, nor the stewards did anything. So I watched the footage again, from cockpit and outside view. So here's my take on things.

    I think it's a bit bold to claim that Kimi did this on purpose. If you consider that all drivers are at 110% at the start, and that it all happens lightning fast, you will have to accept that decisions have to be made. So if Kimi had played with the thought of braking hard to catch the corner and loose a couple of positions in the race, he probably wouldn't be a very good racing driver. So he took the runoff area, which I actually am fine with. Nevertheless, I don't think there necessarily would have been a crash if he hadn't left the track. Of course, you can argue that there would have been, since it is absolutely clear that there are cars in the spot where Kimi would have been if he had stayed on the track. We'll never know for sure though, because those cars only were in that spot because there was no opponent at the time.

    My gripe with this situation however is that Kimi, while being off the track, actually did gain a position, and gained another one after coming back. Sure, the way is longer, but does that really matter? Usually, cutting a chicane means going a shorter route, so you will obviously have an advantage. But does that mean that when the way you go is longer, you won't have an advantage? In this case, Kimi was able to carry much more speed through the first right-hander, because he simply didn't take it as tightly. Right in the bend, he was driving alongside of 3rd and 4th position. If he had braked harder to stay on the track, he likely would have found himself behind those cars and beside the 5th positioned car.

    When Kimi came back onto the track from the runoff area however, he was exactly alongside 3rd position and had enough momentum to overtake him into Eau Rouge, getting 3rd position. So he entered the curve between 3rd and 4th, would likely have been 5th if he had tried to make the turn and got out as 3rd because he didn't.

    Now, I'm not saying that he planned to do that from the beginning. I think that he was put into the position of leaving the track (though he didn't really try to prevent that), and that he simply tried to make the best of it. The question is: is that gaining an advantage? Thinking back to last years incident with Hamilton and Massa, Hamilton effectively was penalised because "you have to drive on the track at all times". Sure, people leave the track all the time for all kinds of reasons, but mostly, they lose pace because of that. In this case, even if it was not intentional, Kimi gained two advantages through leaving the track.

    I understand that this is an incident at the borderline if being penalised or not, obviously, it is open to a lot of discussion. The fact that a penalty wasn't even considered however leaves me baffeled. Ususally, the stuarts are on top of every tiny little thing and penalise even minor necessities. Here, there wasn't even an official discussion. And that's what bugs me the most.
     
  17. Ian Poole

    Ian Poole

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    There's nothing wrong with my glasses!

    Look, let's end this petty squabbling right now, everyone is going to have their own opinion and whether right or wrong, we are going to have to accept that Raikkonen won the race. Let's move on and discuss Monza!
     
  18. sejtur

    sejtur

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    Quotes are from the Interceptor. I'm not so good at this, but I'm gonna try.

    I think Kimi braked hard enough to take la source from the outside line. You can see from footage that he's being forced to the outside by Trulli, probably the reason he took the off-track road.

    Yep, we'll never really know. My thought on this is that the Toyota had too much speed momentum to evade Kimi if Kimi would have been there. But again, we'll never know.

    Kimi gained two positions, Trulli and Heidfeld. Kubica after Eau Rouge.

    Yes, I guess.

    Yes, if there's no gravel trap, like last year.

    Only when you take the corner like it's wider and carry more speed through it, which Kimi didn't do IMO, he slowed down enough appropriate for thaking the corner between the white lines.

    Correct. He was forced to the outside, and didn't anticipate while entering the corner to take it more wider than usual.

    He braked hard enough, he simply didn't steer enough, because there would have been a collision otherwise.

    He was a little before heidfeld, which was then 4th, and behind Kubica, which was second.

    Second position. ;)

    Or he would have likely have collided with Trulli.

    :tup:

    You mean the Kimi/Hamilton incident. It was rather about cutting off chicanes, and giving the position back. The real point was that Hamilton was closer to Kimi with cutting the chicane, than if he would have taken the chicane properly. But, cutting off chicanes means taking a shorter route instead of a longer one.

    Well, you can say that they're consistent on this matter. Also Button and Badoer did it this GP. Sutil overtook Badoer outside the white line this GP. I'm sure Rubens passed some cars which didn't spin out on les combes. Last year Massa, Kimi and maybe others did it too.
    Alot of people did thesame last year in the first corner at hockenheim, in fact every year. Exit of T4 at the nurburgring everybody does it on every lap. It is gaining advantage on your laptime over there. As long as the FIA ignores these incidents, Kimi shouldn't be penalised. In fact, he probably can't be penalised at all because he did an evasive manouvre. FIA aren't making a point of it and the drivers or teams don't do it either. If they would, I woiuld agree with them saying that the white line only may be crossed if you made a mistake or take evasive action. Kimi still falls in this category IMO.

    I think it's unfair that everybody is talking about it now when Kimi did it, and he won. It's being done for a long time already in F1, and I never heard anybody complain about it.

    OMG that's a long post! :scared:
     
  19. Peter

    Peter (Banned)

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    Very on-topic idea, discussing Monza in the thread specifically for Spa.:tup:
     
  20. yeti

    yeti

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    Wow - a lot of anger at the Kimi runoff saga...

    Here's another bit of comment for dissemination...

    Webber and Heidfeld Pit...

    Webber pulls out on Heidfeld - thus forcing him behind him - and slowing him down - Heidfeld gets past just before les Coombes...

    Webber gets drive through...

    Whilst the above are in the pits - Vettel drives on - puts a couple of laps in - and then pits - and comes out ahead of Heidfeld...

    Would that have happened if Webber hadn't shut him off in the pits?

    Thoughts?

    C.
     
  21. Prince.M5

    Prince.M5

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    Well... Simply because of the incident in the pit, Heidfeld had to brake and allow Webber to go and that may has caused Heidfeld around 1-2 seconds or so including the overtaking manoeuvre... So still if Vettel comes to the pit, he'll stay in front of Heidfeld because he was very fast and fast enough to overtake Heidfeld... It also happened to Kubica and just that Kubica can't keep up with the Red Bull of Vettel thus the incident between Webber and Heidfeld just didn't gave any advantages to Vettel... Vettel was just very fast!!!
     
  22. Peter

    Peter (Banned)

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    Heidfield didn't slow, he swerved and almost got wall'd.
     
  23. Bram Turismo

    Bram Turismo Premium

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    I think the exact line he said was "They are so fast on the straights, it's impossible!" Really showed that he had mechanical difficulties at that time, he couldn't even keep up with Sutil, let alone pass Badoer.

    Great driver and a personality Trulli is, I always enjoy his interviews during the press conference so much more than the bland drivers of today.
     
  24. Ardius

    Ardius

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    I dunno, the "drivers of today" include Vettel, Button, Barrichello, Raikkonen, Alonso, Kubica, Webber, Massa and Rosberg. They've all come across with different personalities when interviewed.

    The only driver that to me doesn't speak his mind is Hamilton. A corporate boy through and through, even when he's disappointed.
     
  25. sejtur

    sejtur

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    Trulli always looks and sounds so exhausted in the PC's. Kinda worries me. :(
    I agree with ardius that hamilton isn't always honest, IMO. His words to me sometimes are just words and nothing more.

    And remember the argument between Alonso and Massa in 07? That's not bland at all IMO.
     
  26. cicohipe

    cicohipe

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    Agree but, I think Hamilton feels he has to be after events at Melbourne cost McLaren and him points and I think they may have been fined too.

    Take it easy on him... He is British remember, and i hear the British press are rather nosey.
     
  27. the Interceptor

    the Interceptor Premium

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    Here, I made a gif (might need a moment to load):

    [​IMG]

    Notice how Kimi takes a very wide line into the bend, but never really steers into it tightly. Also, he only gets alongside of Trulli (when he should have stayed behind him) because he goes into the bend way too quickly in the first place. And he truly carries that speed onto the runoff area while all the other cars lose quite some momentum because they make the turn. Additionally, there is no actual evasive action to prevent a crash, he goes wide immediately. Also compare this to Button, who goes wide because the blue car on his right actually comes close enough to endanger him.

    [​IMG]

    Then, when coming back onto the track, he already passed Trulli and has enough momentum to overtake Heidfeld just a moment later. If he had no grip on the runoff area, how did he gather that speed?

    Like I said, I agree that it was a chaotic situation, and that drivers rather go offtrack than have a collision, which is perfectly understandable. In this case however, I did not see any situation tight enough to justify going off the track, and I saw a driver actually gaining places by leaving the track, which should at least spark an investigation, even if the outcome were to be a verdict of not guilty. Completely ignoring this incident however is a bit too much for my taste.
     
  28. NapoleonMikey

    NapoleonMikey

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    the first picture dosnt how he comes in with to much speed. actually it shows he running at the same speed Kubica is. kubica managed to get to the inside of trulli and thus went from 5th to second. clearly because of who was in second (cenat remember) locking up his tires he ran extremly wide and almost took out trulli forcing trulli to slow down more then he would need to for the turn. kubica and raikkonen where side by side going into the turn both carrying the same amount of speed and kubica clearly comes out ahead of raikkonen so raikkonens line clearly wasnt as advantagous as kubicas who managed to go from 5th to 2nd while raikonen only 4th to 3rd. the first picture clearly shows that the driver in second almost caused the turn 1 pile up and almost took trulli out while kimi ran wide and kubica dropped down below them.

    you guys need to look past just raikkonens car and look at the whole situation.
     
  29. sejtur

    sejtur

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    Did you see how of a bad line Heidfeld took through la source, and a blocking tire. He had an extremely slow exit. Trulli was also slow because he was stuck behind Heidfeld.

    ---
    Kubica was behind them before the turn and infront of them after, as NapoleonMikey pointed out. That shows how slow Heidfeld was, and that Kimi slowed down enough to take the corner, because he has almost thesame speed as Kubica all of the time.
     
  30. the Interceptor

    the Interceptor Premium

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    Yes, Kubica was going roughly the same speed as Kimi. The difference however is that Kubica was lucky enough to find just the gap to jump from 5th to 2nd inside of Trulli. Also, Kubica did all this on the track. Some drivers in the grid are lucky at the start and find themselves at the right place at the right time. Others don't. Kimi didn't. That happens.

    The question however is whether it is fine by the rules to avoid the chaos in the first few seconds by going off the track and gaining two positions in the process.
    Yes, Heidfeld did lose quite some speed there and also blocked Trulli, which enabled Kubica to fly past. Nevertheless, as stated before, people said that Kimi had nothing of an advantage, because he struggled badly with wheelspin. Nevertheless, he managed to keep up with Heidfeld all the way down to Eau Rouge and overtake him before that chicane.