2009 Turkish Grand Prix

And Alonso in 19th, just 1.2s behind Massa. This is one hell of a tight season.
 
I think someone said the other day that in terms of the spread across the grid, this is the closest all the teams have been for a very long time.

Anyway, I had to laugh when I saw this:

Briatore doubts Renault title chances

06 June 2009

Renault team principal Flavio Briatore has written off any chances the French team may have had of reclaiming Formula One titles in 2009. The Italian, firmly against the FIA's proposed €45m budget cap scheme for next year, has said that the performance of the Renault R29 is not up to the leading standards of teams such as Brawn or Red Bull.

The Renault team's best result of this season so far remains as two fifth places from Melbourne and Barcelona for Fernando Alonso although, after two Grand Prix wins towards the end of last year, both men anticipated more in 2009. "We are not happy at all," Briatore said in Istanbul. "We were expecting a different championship and we were expecting a much better performance from our car. For me, the championship is finished already; Brawn is very, very difficult to beat for anybody - maybe Red Bull have a good possibility to finish second and I think everybody else is fighting for the third and fourth places."

Briatore's comments reflect upon the controversial start to the season with the innovative double-diffusers of Brawn, Williams and Toyota eventually being declared legal by governing body the FIA. "Our team, I believe, approached the 2009 car in a totally different way and we expected to improve race-by-race if possible," Flavio continued.

"We never give up, we will try to improve the car, but everybody is trying to improve in the same way and that is the situation we are in; we need to still improve the car - we now have a chance in June and July to really, really push with this car but the situation is really difficult for us."
This is only occuring to you, now, Flav? Considering for the moment that the Brawns, Red Bulls, Ferraris and - when they're on to a good thing - the Toyotas have all been better than you this season, did you really think you stood a chance? Even if the double-deck diffusers had been declared illegal, Renault would still be sucking just as much as they did in 2007 and 2008.

Let's face it: Renault haven't been able to conclusively win since traction control was banned.
 
I'll have to disagree. You're missing quite a few points here, and pointing to inexistent ones. I may be a Renault fan, but what I'm listing here are facts:

First off, with all the tararam they made in pre-season, there had to come a statement regarding their evaporated championship hopes. Sooner or later. It was probably obvious by China that they won't win the championship, but had the double-decker (introduced at China untested) brought a larger increase in pace, they could've been up there. So yes, now is the time to admit the championship is over. For every team bar Brawn. Nobody expected them to be so fast - Ferrari even thought they had the championship wrapped up before the Brawns came along.

Second, you're a bit quick to say Renault would still be sucking had the double diffuser been outlawed: Fact is, they were just behind Ferrari, so 3rd-best non-DD team. And please, stop with the "Brawn's pace doesn't depend on the DD" - it does. The whole car is full of clever details - but they're all to make the DD work. A high-downforce front wing isn't much use if the rear lacks downforce. All the under-nose aero is designed in order to feed the special diffuser. Things like winglets on the brakes don't bring a tangible improvement, and yes, banning the double diffuser would've:
A) Possibly elevated Alonso to race victory in Melbourne
B) Effectively put Brawn out of the championship, since they themselves said they don't have a competitive regular diffuser, and would need a few races to adapt.

Third, they were safely 4th-fastest in 2007 and 2008. That's better than 6 other teams - is that sucking? Sure, it's not quite the 2005/6 standard, but it's a long shot from sucking. And considering they had a $150m disadvantage on the top three (and on Toyota and Honda behind them), it was quite a feat.

An important cause for Renault's lack of pace in those years is the J-Damper (Inerter), worth 0.3-0.4 of a second: Found with McLaren data on the mainframe (it was a McLaren idea originally), they couldn't implement that part until they issue cooled off - and only by Barcelona 2008 they fitted it, instead of early-2007. Second cause was the engine-freeze: By 2008, they were a good 40HP down on their competitors. After regaining some horsepower and settling the J-Damper properly, they easily eclipsed BMW in the latter half of the season, and were up there with McLaren and Ferrari on raw speed alone - just three tenths down.
In fact, that "sucking" was actually Alonso scoring more points in the last six rounds than any other driver. It was the whole team scoring more constructor's points in those six rounds than any other team. Two victories, one with the aid of pit-stops and one, guess what, on raw speed. Yes, Hamilton did a silly mistake to take himself and Massa out - but no driver could match Alonso's middle stint. Even good 'ole Piquet managed to get 4th, but not before challenging the Kimi-Kubica duo ahead of him; only the lack of grip in traffic, and the resultant graining of the tyres, stopped him from achieving 2nd place.

And last, traction control being the cause? Sure, Renault had one of the best systems... But to say that removing it caused them to suck is laughable. Perhaps you forgot, but in 2007, we still had the system - and yet the Renault scored it's only podium that year (one of the few non-McLaren/Ferrari lockouts of the season) in a soaking wet race, where traction-control isn't much use anyway. Perhaps you also forgot that with suspension sorted out, the late-2008 Renault was one of the most settled cars out of a corner.

The real issue was the move from Michelins to Bridgestones. Renault invested very, very heavily in the Michelins, and extracted grip out of them like no other team - but they were fundamentally different from the Bridgestones, and unlike McLaren, were caught out in 2007. The Michelins worked optimally with a rear-based bias and certain suspensions, while the Bridgestones needed a more forward bias in order to extract the maximum. On top of that, the aerodynamics of a car depend heavily on the tyres: Moving at 300km/h, the upper surface moves at 600km/h compared to the air - so four times the aerodynamic forces exerted on the rest of the body. The way they move under loads also changes the airflow from the front wing and the rest of the car. The 2007 aerodynamics weren't made for the Bridgestones - and add that to the windtunnel calibration issues cause by this, it's hardly a surprise.
 
Man, Sutil is so awesome bringing the FI car into Q2 for the second time now 👍
 
That's what happens when you let young drivers in F1 Piquet. :irked:
 
At the expense of Best Buddy Hamilton. :lol:

Funny how everyone above 11th didn't even bother doing a second run: From Alonso to Vettel, barely anyone tried again.
 
Heidfeld, Nakjima, Glock, Kovalainen and Sutil out.
 
Vettel you Legend!!

[/over reaction]
 
Button thought he'd do a Button once again by taking pole on the last minute. Well, looks like Vettel did a Button too 👍
 
What was that about Massa being a sure thing for pole and victory? He's all the way back in a very commanding seventh.

Final standings:

Vettel - Button
Barrichello - Webber
Trulli - Raikkonen
Massa - Alonso
Rosberg - Kubica
Heidfeld - Nakajima
Glock- Kovalainen
Sutil - Hamilton
Piquet - Buemi
Fisichella - Bourdais​
 
I was hoping for a Trulli pole. Now we have the wait until we find out the start weights.
 
Yay! :D :D :D :D
 
I just hope Vettel isn't too disadvantaged with the fuel loads.
 
Post # 33 was excellent... and true. I just hope at this point it's a good race worth watching, whoever wins. Go Everybody! or Whoever!:(
 
Weights:

1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 649.5
2. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 655.5
3. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 652.5
4. Mark Webber, Red Bull, 656
5. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 652
6. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 658
7. Felipe Massa, Ferrari, 654
8. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 644.5
9. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 660
10. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 664
11. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 681.5
12. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 680.4
13. Timo Glock, Toyota, 689
14. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 665
15. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 668.5
16. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 696.5
17. Nelson Piquet, Renault, 689.6
18. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 686.5
19. Giancarlo Fisichella, Force India, 688.5
20. Sebastien Bourdais, Toro Rosso, 701
 
Thank you, Renault engineers, for bringing me my Weekend Facepalm, every time. :banghead:
 
Alonso has his work cut out for him! :crazy:
 
Vettel light like we expected, he is going to have to pull a large gap tomorrow if he wants a win.

Bourdais piloting an oil tanker tomorrow.
 
Nice to see BMW have improved a bit. McLaren's looked to have no grip whatosever. Should be a good race.
 
I expect to see a Vettel-Button fight, the 2 ferraris should get past Trulli, but i really expect nothing more.
 
[FPV]Rusty;3420659
can't wait for some Trulli train tomorrow

Why would there be a Trulli train? There is nothing that implies Trulli drives a slower car than the drivers behind him on the grid to create a "Trulli train".
 
Wow that McLaren looks awful, and good job to Trulli and Toyota.
 
Why would there be a Trulli train? There is nothing that implies Trulli drives a slower car than the drivers behind him on the grid to create a "Trulli train".

Well Trulli has this habit of setting very impressive qualifying times and outdoing his faster rivals cars, then his race pace is mediocre and hold them up. :p
 
And he has two much improved Ferraris behind him.

Outlook is good for Webber. While Vettel is light he isn't that worse off, should be a a good battle between RBR and Brawn.
 
Well Trulli has this habit of setting very impressive qualifying times and outdoing his faster rivals cars, then his race pace is mediocre and hold them up. :p

Last I remember I saw a Trulli leading a Bahrain race untill the team called him in for a crap strategy, and a Trulli who set a fastest lap in the first stint which was not beaten throughout the whole race. And let's not forget that this man started from the back in Australia, and brought home a podium position. Really, Trulli is not that slow to hold up the Mclarens, a Renault and a Williams behind him :odd:
 
Actually, I thought the whole point of Trulli-trains is that its a compliment to his defensive driving skills rather than a comment on how he's always slow in races.
Defensive driving makes you relatively slow no matter what car you are driving.
 
I don't think the Ferrari's will be stuck in that train, thanks to KERS.

Good job by Kimi to beat Massa on his "best" track.
 
Huh, interesting fuel loads for the Ferrari's. Can't say the same for Vettel though. Still, looking forward to turn 1, especially with those bloody Renaults skating everywhere.
 
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