2010 Formula One European Grand Prix

[Radracing]

He said "At the time, I reacted emotionally and in that situation it is all too easy to adopt a tone and say things that can be interpreted wrongly"

So he's blaming other people for interpreting his words wrongly? He should choose his words more wisely if that's the case.



Oh the irony

It's hard to choose your words wisely when you are driving at a very high speed with your adrenaline pumping at full speed with no time to pull out that Thesaurus having your hands full with the wheel and brake bias knobs and all. hehe!

I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous. It sounds like Alonso was the one who broke the rules. Yes, he whines. Yes, he is hot headed. Yes, in the heat of the moment he says stupid things. But the fact of the matter remains that as it turned out Hamilton broke the rules and got away scot free. It's just dumb to blame Alonso for being angry over that.

Not scot free but enough to gain an advantage, because he did get penalized. It just wasn't enough according to the rules. But I agree on you with the rest, specially the dumb part. People forget that it's a very passionate and emotional sport. It's not like he totally lost it and started swearing and all.

You would be surprised how we get when we get into a race incident in our LAN events and its only just over a video game.

 

[Seismica]

It's hard to choose your words wisely when you are driving at a very high speed with your adrenaline pumping at full speed with no time to pull out that Thesaurus having your hands full with the wheel and brake bias knobs and all. hehe!

Well yes But he said similar things after the race was over aswell

 

[Famine]

The most overtaken part just seems to show the cars with DNF in the highest positions. The Virgin Racing cars are probably the least reliable at this stage... But they're always at the back so they don't lose as many places

It's still relatively interesting if you remove DNFs...

Most Positions Gained (excluding DNFs and 3 new teams)
1. Jaime Alguersuari - STR - 37 places (4.11/race)
2. Lewis Hamilton - McLaren - 26 places (3.25/race)
3. Jenson Button - McLaren - 25 places (3.13/race)
4. Fernando Alonso - Ferrari - 20 places (2.50/race)
5. Sebastien Buemi - STR - 11 places (1.83/race)

(2 other drivers on 11, but gained over more races)

Most Positions Gained (excluding DNFs, including 3 new teams)
1. Jaime Alguersuari - STR - 37 places (4.11/race)
2. Karum Chandhok - Hispania - 33 places (6.60/race)
3. Lucas di Grassi - Virgin - 26 places (5.20/race)
4. Lewis Hamilton - McLaren - 26 places (3.25/race)
5. Jenson Button - McLaren - 25 places (3.13/race)

Most Positions Lost (excluding DNFs)
1. Nico Hulkenberg - Williams - -30 places (-5.00/race)
2. Mark Webber - RBR - -16 places (-2.00/race)
3. Sebastian Vettel - RBR - -8 places (-1.14/race)
4. Michael Schumacher - Mercedes - -3 places (-0.38/race)
5. Jarno Trulli - Lotus - 0 places (0.00/race)


Which all says that McLaren and STR (and Alonso) qualify too slow and RBR qualify too fast compared to their racecraft. Chuck in the DNFs and you get an idea about driver errors and car fragility too - and McLaren, STR and Alonso all look good on that count, but RBR, Sauber and Hulkenberg all look a bit lost.

 

[Vaxen]

How come the FIA still can't figure out Safety Car deployment and getting the field right after 18 years?

They should take a page from Nascar and close the pits once the SC deployment is announced. Gather the field, then open the pits for the top 10 (or 12) cars on the first lap, and the rest of the field on the next lap.

 

[Famine]

What happens when the cars in the top 10 (or 12) are made up of the same five (or six) teams, with just five (or six) pit spaces?

 

[Fastas]

Without the need to refuel the FIA would be as well just to close the pit lane during a safety car incident. The only drivers that would be affected by this would be the ones involved in an accident and they would be disadvantaged anyhow.

I think the NASCAR (or SOCCAR as I like to call it ) method would still allow dangerous pit lane congestion as Famine points out because the cars will be queuing. This is a current problem any way and has never been properly resolved. The F1 circuits are a little longer than NASCAR to I believe, and a safety car scenario may only last two or three laps.

 

[Ardius]

It would then mean though that Vettel and Hamilton would have instead lapped the entire field and then the safety car would have had to allow the whole field barring those two to pass and catch up again. Wasting valuable race time and distance.
It wouldn't be so bad for races like Valencia which don't get near the 2 hour limit. But for races like Singapore it would start to get too close to the 2 hour limit, especially if it happened twice for some bizarre reason.
Race control probably wouldn't allow the field to overtake the SC until all the debris is cleared up too and the marshals/medical car were clear like last weekends situation. (after all, if a SC is called, its because its dangerous to allow the driver to go their own pace). So it would be the time it takes for the marshals to clear up + then allowing the lapped cars to circulate.

I still agree that closing the pitlane would be better, but there are disadvantages to doing so. At least the way we have it now allows the least time to be lost behind the safety car. But having cars lose out through no fault of their own dramatically is a bit lame. This has been the case for a very long time though so its interesting that only now when its Ferrari that lose out that its a problem.

I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous. It sounds like Alonso was the one who broke the rules. Yes, he whines. Yes, he is hot headed. Yes, in the heat of the moment he says stupid things. But the fact of the matter remains that as it turned out Hamilton broke the rules and got away scot free. It's just dumb to blame Alonso for being angry over that.

Erm, no one said Alonso broke the rules but he doesn't need to be crying his face off about how its Hamilton's fault and the race was "manipulated". What he stated wasn't just being angry, it was essentially libel or slander. If he had just said "I'm gutted and annoyed that we lost out because of the safety car and Lewis gained from it" then that would be fine. Instead he chose to say "Lewis cheated and the race was manipulated".
Then Ferrari started bringing out outrageous statements like "F1 is no longer credible" etc.

It doesn't help that Alonso once won a race because of a safety car which was in fact gifted by his teammate. When asked if he felt it wasn't a worthwhile win, he said "a win is a win". Basically he didn't care because he won, but turn the tables around and "wah". Same for Ferrari - there have been so many incidents they have been involved in and the FIA have given them penalties that didn't penalise them. Now Ferrari decide to complain when they are the victims?
I seem to remember Alonso has done this before in the past - the penalty at Monza for "blocking" Massa. He went on about how the sport is politics etc.

I don't feel sorry for them at all. I don't recall McLaren coming out and saying the sport has lost its credibility etc when they were penalised unfairly. Or Williams for that matter.

 

[yeti]

Neither driver made an overtake in Valencia.

Can I simply point out here - that Button and Hamilton both passed Webber in the first lap...

And I think (I can't be sure) that Button passed a couple more on the first lap too. (Both williams?)

C.

 

[Ardius]

Can I simply point out here - that Button and Hamilton both passed Webber in the first lap...

And I think (I can't be sure) that Button passed a couple more on the first lap too. (Both williams?)

C.

The Williams were behind Button at the start. Button almost overtook Kubica too but lost out and Barrichello jumped everyone (except Button) in the pit stop switch.
Webber actually went from 2nd to 9th in 8 corners .

 

[GTsail]

What happens when the cars in the top 10 (or 12) are made up of the same five (or six) teams, with just five (or six) pit spaces?

As the rules are now -- you get pit lane congestion.

However, I'm sure that the F1 rules could be changed so that each race car gets its own pit box. Then stacking losses (like Massa endured) would be a thing of the past.

I think that the main reason that F1 does not close the pits when a Safety Car is deployed is like Fastas and Ardius mention, a number of laps can get lost during the queueing up process.

Generally, I think it that it would be better to close the pit lane when the SC is deployed, to reduce the chances of leap-frogging and un-safe speeding by cars trying to take advantage of the SC deployment. Since the SC only gets deployed in un-safe track conditions, I think its best if the field is essentially frozen.

However, for the viewing race-fans like us, sometimes we would loose out in the chance for some interesting racing situations.

It would depend upon the specific race and which cars either get this advantage or loose out due to the leap-frogging.

For example, say we were at a track where over-taking was easier (not Valencia), and the top five positions all got pushed back to P6-P10 during this SC leap-frogging and they were then all able to drive back thru the field, maybe back up to P1-P5. Wouldn't we all be glued to our TV sets? Great fun for the fans, a little artificial queueing for the drivers though.

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[Famine]

As the rules are now -- you get pit lane congestion.

However, I'm sure that the F1 rules could be changed so that each race car gets its own pit box. Then stacking losses (like Massa endured) would be a thing of the past.

Aaaah, no.

Most of the older F1 pitlanes already struggle with 12 double-width boxes. Trying to stop and push out two F1 cars from adjacent boxes is practically Tetris. With twice the cars and the same space, it'll be Bomberman.

 

[Sonzilla]

And I give you several examples of Button doing just that. Your response is "I disagree"?

Forums are for discussion, you post rubbish and it will be discussed. If you didn't want to start a debate, don't post.

No I will post whether you like or not. Last time I checked forums are for expressing your opinion and yes open for discussion as you say but the poster doesn't have to respond.

Again I said my opinion will not change and disagreed with your statement regarding Button yet you still wanted to debate with me even after the fact. But Hey that's fine with me, say what you want just don't expect me to respond and debate in the future cause I never will and never have for the simple reasons I expressed earlier in my previous post..

I guess u can sticky this in your brain if you want for future reference and to all reading this. lol


I do all my F1 debating respectably on another Forum which I Moderate and I won't disclose the location so don't bother asking.

You ask then why do I come here? simply cause I like to read what others are saying, I love F1 and make 8 other stops as well and sometimes I may very quickly post my opinion. tim:tup:

Pfft, you come in here state "Button sucks" then double back and say "its just my humour"?
If I had said "Hamilton sucks" and then later said "I'm just joking", you wouldn't be laughing.

My quote....

I can care less what you say or what other people say, you want to take it personal then that's your problem not mine. I've never taken anything posted on the internet personal in all my life on the net unless I knew the person talking to me on the net personally.

AGAIN BUTTON & ALONSO SUCKS LOL .....

Kidding only kidding for the sensitive ones...


Ceeyyaa next race lmao........

 

[Ardius]

Indeed, you don't have to respond, but you can't expect us to just ignore your posts because you think its funny.
This is not a youtube comments page, its a forum for well reasoned disucssion.
Just stating "LOL BUTTON SUCKS" is not reasoned discussion its just a useless statement.

Technically its borderline spam.

I've not even bothered to point out its also obvious baiting (otherwise known as "trolling"). You are baiting people to start an argument, with no reasoning behind your words, what is even the point in sharing?

You say you just like to read the forum but right now you just keep posting throwaway statements. What have you added to the discussion? Nothing. So why have you posted? You refuse to defend your own words and expect people to just ignore what you said, whats the point in even sharing your words? This is not a place just to post whatever the hell you like without any consequence. We are here to discuss.

By the way, there is nothing "personal" about this. Here we are talking about the Valencia Grand Prix and F1 in general. You add a post saying "BUTTON SUCKS". So we ask why and discuss it. Its a pretty simple concept. There is nothing "personal" about it. If you don't like us dicussing your opinion, don't post it. By posting it, you are telling us all what you think which is obviously going to provoke a response. Why do you want us to know if you don't care what we think?

 

[Fastas]

I guess Sonzilla likes to copy and paste our comments on to his 'other' forum. So far he's only made one post of any note, his first. Since then it's been off topic spam and trolling all the way.

In part I feel shamefulness for even posting this

I'd also like to point out to F1 Fan that whilst I do enjoy a beer every now and then it doesn't impair my logic or lucidity when it comes to posting and discussing, perhaps at least my spelling and grammar is a small testament to that. Oh and by the way, I stand by my comments but am always willing to discuss them in a reasonable and unassuming manner.

 

[Radracing]

All this argument on who is to blame really is not that important since it's really about fairness and with the current rule not working their has to be changes made. So the only way to really give no advantage to anyone in this case is when a seriuos accident like this happens you give the whole track a full course yellow, closed pit lane, everyone keeps the position they are in no passing allowed except the ones with damaged cars that are allowed to enter the pit but will have to end up at the back of the grid in the same order that they came into the pit lane with.

 

[Ardius]

^You still end up with lapped cars in this scenario, as we have just discussed. Vettel and almost Hamilton had already overtaken the safety car as it was deployed. Therefore that puts them 1 lap ahead.
There is no way around solving this problem other than perhaps making the lead car a temporary safety car like I suggested.

 

[Fastas]

You make a good point Radracing; if the incident with the Red Bull and the Lotus was more serious and someone was injured, do you think Alonso and Ferrari would still be right to cry like little babies?

It's not about fairness at all, it will never and should never be fair, it's a sport after all.

 

[Pescara for GT5]

How about they go to local yellow speed and stop at the safety car line, and that will bring them to the correct order.

 

[Ardius]

You mean red flag the session? Thats what we had before safety cars and its even worse than a safety car for taking up time with restarts and figuring out who should be where.
Its also dangerous if the lead car stops dead at the safety car line and the drivers behind don't realise in time. You basically have another crash like Webber's.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Why is the safety car needed? Just for organization?

 

[Pescara for GT5]

You mean red flag the session? Thats what we had before safety cars and its even worse than a safety car for taking up time with restarts and figuring out who should be where.
Its also dangerous if the lead car stops dead at the safety car line and the drivers behind don't realise in time. You basically have another crash like Webber's.

Not exactly, the yellow would come out, and the cars would stop at the safety car line, then the Safety car would come out and the cars would keep going, more I think about it though the worse it sounds to be honest.

 

[Fastas]

Why is the safety car needed? Just for organization?

The safety car ensures the safe behaviour of the drivers whilst the medical and track marshals are on the track. Initially, the safety car will marshal the medical car to the scene of the accident, there after it is the effective leader of the race until the race proper can resume.

 

[Ardius]

Not exactly, the yellow would come out, and the cars would stop at the safety car line, then the Safety car would come out and the cars would keep going, more I think about it though the worse it sounds to be honest.

Hmm, yeah its too dangerous I think just because it could catch drivers out if they didn't notice the SC boards or whatever.

Why is the safety car needed? Just for organization?

To stop the drivers racing to allow the marshals to safely clear debris, the medical car to attend the drivers and to allow race control to observe the situation with far less pressure.
I think the main problem with my "lead car is the safety car" idea is that when does the lead driver slow down? How can he do this in a safe way?
It also puts a lot of trust on the lead driver to choose the correct line and guide the pack sufficiently at a safe speed.

I think the safety car is still needed in this respect as it isn't a competitor and is trustworthy. But for the initial lap where the safety car cannot catch the leader if the accident happens at the wrong moment, perhaps then you could say the lead car is effectively a safety car for 1 lap.

 

[Fastas]

There was a rule that the first driver behind the safety car had to maintain no greater than a 15 car length gap to the safety car also. Without a safety car there was a lot of stop-starting, much like the warm up lap which, in turn, had it's own problems.

 

[Seismica]

Not exactly, the yellow would come out, and the cars would stop at the safety car line, then the Safety car would come out and the cars would keep going, more I think about it though the worse it sounds to be honest.

When the safety car goes in, the race 'restarts'.

So why can't the cars line up on the grid like they've just come off their formation lap (No pitting, and starting from the leader) 💡 And then release the safety car after they've all lined up.

Although this would be problematic if there was an incident on the pit straight...

 

[Ardius]

When the safety car goes in, the race 'restarts'.

So why can't the cars line up on the grid like they've just come off their formation lap 💡 And then release the safety car after they've all lined up.

Although this would be problematic if there was an incident on the pit straight...

Why do they need to line up on the grid?
I don't think this is very practical really, if Vettel is on the pit straight and the SC flags come out, is he meant to slam the anchors on and stop in pole position? What happens if drivers don't notice the flags immediately? At least with a safety car, they have time to react to slowing cars rather than stopping ones.

 

[Famine]

Not exactly, the yellow would come out, and the cars would stop at the safety car line, then the Safety car would come out and the cars would keep going, more I think about it though the worse it sounds to be honest.

Indeed - given that F1 cars can't sit still for more than 60s without expiring in a cloud of smoke (particularly if they've just been belted around a track for 20 laps) and that if any of them stall you then either have a static chicane of carbonfibre or lots of marshalls with a truck starter motor on a stick...

 

[Fastas]

I think the biggest problem with stopping, apart from the danger to the cars overheating, the drivers getting out and going for a lolly or the need for the teams to re-enter the track to restart the cars is the entertainment value. Whilst the cars are moving, there is at least the sense that the race is still on. This is for the best part a tv orientated sport now and with out some kind of action it would be difficult to maintain some sort of interest.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

What if they told the drivers to slow down to 60mph or so until the safety car picks up the leader?

 

[Fastas]

That's pretty much what they do now. The cars all have the flag system built into their steering wheels so that they know immediately any scenario that they should be aware of. On top of this, they also have the sector 'target times' to achieve to act as a 'speed limiter', that is how the five second penalties came about this weekend.