2010 Formula One European Grand Prix

[F1 fan]

He threw out the steering wheel, couldn't have been that serious.

Didn't glock throw his steering wheel out at suzuka? Then he tried to get up and realised he was hurt.

I once (accidentally) cut a finger off. Took me a few seconds to realise.

 

[Ardius]

No

..but it explains the previous paragraph - they did not let cars through for safety reasons and the regulations allow this for this exact reason. You either ignored it, didn't read it or don't understand what it means.

He threw out the steering wheel, couldn't have been that serious.

I didn't think I would have to also state how we have seen drivers "look" fine but aren't. Webber just had a massive impact, even if he can jump out and dance, you never know what hidden effects such a blow can do.
Ronnie Peterson.

You may want to criticise the FIA, race control and Charlie Whiting for getting penalties wrong, but they are never wrong to put health and safety before competition in a situation like this. We should never get complacent, the FIA were proven right to force helmet manufacturers to perform expensive safety tests before Massa's accident last year.

Alonso was an unlucky victim of a set of circumstances. There was no cheating or manipulation. Perhaps the penalty was unfair, but it became unfair due to a set of factors and an attempt to avoid manipulation ironically. Whiting didn't want to give out a bigger penalty than what was in the rules because he feared that would be seen as manipulation in favour of Ferrari.
After many years of rulings going Ferrari's way, I find it very hard to feel sorry for the Scuderia when they are unlucky like this. Particularly with this continuing whining.

 

[Smallhorses]

I once (accidentally) cut a finger off. Took me a few seconds to realise.

I'm not sure it was necessary to clarify the "accidentally" there.
Not many people are known to cut off their own fingers for fun!

 

[Ardius]

Further confirmation that the 9 drivers penalised were simply caught out by being at the end of the lap:

"Q. Both [Renault] drivers ended the race under investigation by the stewards for exceeding the permitted speed on their in-laps under Safety Car conditions. Can you explain why they received five-second penalties and the team's response?

AP: When the Safety Car came out, it was just before Robert's braking point for the final corner, which is just before the Safety Car line. His reaction time from the Safety Car lights coming on to braking was about 1.2 seconds and he then entered the pit lane. It's difficult to see how he could have avoided this penalty because he couldn't have braked any sooner and he reacted as quickly as he could. Unfortunately, Vitaly came in too quickly and we accept the penalty for him, but it's hard to understand Robert's penalty."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84880

I believe that settles both issues. But I guess it won't, will it?

 

[LizMcQueen]

Hamilton? Spoiled child in F1?

Seriously. Hamilton? Spoiled by the FIA?

Yes, take a look at this season (this is just an example).
Malaysia:
Hamilton vs. Petrov - How many changes of direction?

Shanghai:
Entering pit - Is this a rally?
Leaving pit - driving over the blue line (mechanical area).
He pushed Webber off the track - When they were behind the safety car.

Canada:
He get out of his car and pushed it in classification.

Was he penalized for these actions?

Edit:

 

[Famine]

And yet Alonso has access to an updated engine - no other team has been permitted this - and racked up some in-season testing miles on his new blown diffuser just last week despite a testing ban.

Not to mention Ferrari now benefitting twice from post-race stewards' decisions to apply a 30s penalty in lieu of a stop-go/drive-through on another driver for breaching a rule that wasn't written until the next race (one against Hamilton, the other against ex-Ferrari driver Michael Schumacher).

 

[Fastas]

......What another bad showing from hamilton. He gets up the inside of vettel and basically forces vettel to either hit the wall or hit him. Vettel chooses the latter and lewis complains over the radio "vettel hit me". Almost like a footballer taking a dive. I wonder whether that first call over the radio was just an update to his engineers or if it was him trying to attract the attention of Charlie Whiting and get vettel a penalty.

I'm thinking the latter. And then at the end of the race, he apologised to vettel... I'm really starting to hate Lewis. What an arrogant little D*** he is. This is Formula One. Not "the Lewis Hamilton show".

I don't consider someone finishing second a bad result, unless of course 23 drivers finished 1st 💡 As for Hamilton apologising after the race; I didn't realise that apologising was such an arrogant trait, I always thought it was a decent thing to do 💡

If, by definition to your 'Hamilton Show' quip you mean we have to watch races that involve bravery, excitement, determination and enthralling over-taking manoeuvres then sobeit. If you would rather watch some guys winging on the radio for a whole race you may need to find a new sport for a few years.

Alonso was right to be angry. A drive through penalty simply wasn't enough and took far too long to happen. It's undeniable. Alonso was right behind Hamilton and stayed within the rules. Hamilton broke the rules, was penalised but still ended up much further up the field than Alonso.

It's not often I'll defend Alonso, but he is 100% in the right on this occasion.....

I don't see why Alonso had any right to be angry. Let's face it, of the other 22 drivers that finished behind Hamilton, I don't recall any one of them, or their teams complaining.

....Try looking at it the other way around. If alonso had been in Hamilton's shoes and vice versa the English media would've kicked up a stink. And Hamilton would have complained in his post race interviews about how alonso "cheated". When the shoe's on the other foot, he just laughs it off.

Tells you a few things about his character.

If or when that scenario ever happens, then we can discuss it constructively. The 'shoe on the other foot' argument doesn't really wash because Hamilton did not go unpunished and on top of it, no one else even complained about it.

All I ever want to see in F1 is a good race and at the end of the year, the winner will be the guy who raced the best over that year. I'll be pleased for whoever that guy is because he will have deserved to be there, that is my view of F1 and it always has been.

 

[Ardius]

Yes, take a look at this season (this is just an example).
Malaysia:
Hamilton vs. Petrov - How many changes of direction?

Shanghai:
Entering pit - Is this a rally?
Leaving pit - driving over the blue line (mechanical area).
He pushed Webber off the track - When they were behind the safety car.

Canada:
He get out of his car and pushed it in classification.

Was he penalized for these actions?

Yes, as were several other people this year let off for potential infringements. 2010 has shown a more lenient style of stewarding, I think its for the better though some incidents are getting a bit naughty.
None of those things were actually punishable, he was told off for the pitlane, the team was told off for Canada (and the rules ammended). Sepang was wrong but again, not punishable.

By the way, Hamilton was squeezed by Vettel into Webber. But I guess thats difficult to see for someone clearly with a bias.

Its laughable to say Hamilton is favoured by the FIA - if that was true they wouldn't have almost screwed his WDC chances in 2008.
Are you people real, honestly? I can't believe people are running with Ferrari's wah wah rubbish.

Edit: I'd also like to add that I've never liked Lewis, though I have enjoyed his driving the excitment he brings to the sport. After the numerous mistakes he has made on and off track, I can't say I'm a fan. So I'd say if there was a driver I was least biased towards, it would be Lewis. But I guess defending someone is apparently thinking he is the greatest ever, I would have loved to see Hamilton penalised to hell and Button elevated into the championship lead. But Lewis didn't deserve a hefty penalty and through a set of various factors, he benefitted over his championship competition.
It has been explained quite well by various journalists why the FIA/Whiting/Stewards took so long to hand out the penalty, why the SC didn't let Alonso past and why the penalties were what they were. At the end of the day, this race wasn't the worst case of safety car advantages and pretty much any time the SC comes out its a game of luck where you end up. Usually its someone else other than Ferrari that lose out so most people accept that its just the name of the game that you can be unlucky. Ferrari played themselves up so much before this race that they are becoming increasingly frustrated with their failures and bad luck. Rather than focus on the next race and avoiding such bad luck, they choose to blame it on other people and whine and complain.
Ferrari can bugger off as far as I'm concerned. All the years where penalties and decisions have gone in their favour and now they fall into some bad luck and its unacceptable?

 

[Fastas]

Ferrari can bugger off as far as I'm concerned. All the years where penalties and decisions have gone in their favour and now they fall into some bad luck and its unacceptable?

+1 👍

I'm really, really disappointed with the Ferrari of late. It was shocking enough in the eighties/nineties when they were also rans. When they moved back to Italy and then got Schumi on board it was great but now, they've gotten too big for their boots. They are trying to spoil our sport with their constant disruptions and disputes.

I still regard them as the instigators of the whole McLaren saga, after all, it was their employer who gave the blueprints to McLaren, but that's another debate entirely. The Ferrari team also delayed the signing of the Concorde agreement for so long to the detriment of the new teams. And to top it off, they want to have a three car team, pah, go and form your own series Ferrari, F1 does not need you.

IMO.

 

[Seismica]

I'm not sure it was necessary to clarify the "accidentally" there.
Not many people are known to cut off their own fingers for fun!

Even though he implied it, he never stated it was his own finger

Yes, take a look at this season (this is just an example).
Malaysia:
Hamilton vs. Petrov - How many changes of direction?

And he was given a warning, and then the rules were clarified that they are now allowed one move only or face a penalty. It was never a rule before this.

Shanghai:
Entering pit - Is this a rally?

There is no rule in F1 that states the driver must be within the white line. Look at Kubica in Canada, cut across the inside of the turn-in zone almost causing a collision.

Nothing wrong with what Hamilton did there. He made a late decision to pit for intermediates.

Leaving pit - driving over the blue line (mechanical area).

After being forced onto it by Vettel...? This was looked at, and it was considered a race incident which was a result of both drivers being released by their pit crews at the same time. But Vettel clearly turned right into Hamilton to try to force him to brake and get behind him. Vettel was the one in the wrong here.

He pushed Webber off the track - When they were behind the safety car.

It was after the safety car line, overtaking was allowed. And as said, Vettel had the inside line on Hamilton, and squeezed him on the outside. They were 3 cars across and Webber, being the one on the outside, was always going to suffer.

Canada:
He get out of his car and pushed it in classification.

You'd rather he drove to the pits under the cars own power, ran out of fuel and broken a written regulation? It was the lesser of two evils. But he cannot be punished because he did not break a rule. He was given a warning and the rule was clarified and written in the regulations after the incident. In contrast, Schumacher was penalised at Monaco. But he broke a written regulation that contradicted another. Hamilton broke no written regulation in this incident.

Was he penalized for these actions?

In Valencia he was, because he broke a rule. He wasn't in the incidents you listed because he broke no rules. He was punished at Spa in 2008 when he broke no rules, he's had unfair decisions made against him aswell. What's your problem?

 

[Anghammarad]

Ronnie Peterson.

Yeah, well. He didn't jump out of the car within 30 seconds of the crash and walk away from the wreck.

The thing is that even if Webber had been hurt it did not take more than a minute for the doctor to arrive at the crash. After that it was a matter of clearing up the debris from the crash. During that cleaning there was ample time to sort out the correct racing order behind the safety car. Hamilton is as much a victim. He just got lucky that there was a Sauber blocking everyone else so that he was able to build a lead.

 

[Seismica]

He just got lucky that there was a Sauber blocking everyone else so that he was able to build a lead.

As far as I am aware, the steward's decisions are made irrespective of the other cars on the track and whether they gain or lose positions as a result. As you said, if Kobayashi had not been holding up Button, Hamilton would not have got the lead he did, and would not have retained second place after his penalty.

I know, let's all blame the Sauber team and Kobayashi for allowing Hamilton to retain second place! 💡 It's obviously corruption, and the teams were working together to annoy Alonso and Ferrari at all costs.

 

[Fastas]

.....I know, let's all blame the Sauber team and Kobayashi for allowing Hamilton to retain second place! 💡 It's obviously corruption, and the teams were working together to annoy Alonso and Ferrari at all costs.

That seems to plausible,.....💡 - what is his star sign? perhaps the moon's alinement with Uranus had something to do with it too.

 

[Ardius]

Yeah, well. He didn't jump out of the car within 30 seconds of the crash and walk away from the wreck.

The thing is that even if Webber had been hurt it did not take more than a minute for the doctor to arrive at the crash. After that it was a matter of clearing up the debris from the crash. During that cleaning there was ample time to sort out the correct racing order behind the safety car. Hamilton is as much a victim. He just got lucky that there was a Sauber blocking everyone else so that he was able to build a lead.

The point is though, the safety car and race control were focusing on that, and had no reason to focus on the race order.
The safety car did its job of stopping as many drivers as possible racing around while the medical car was still making its way to Webber. Vettel and Hamilton failed to be caught by it in the end, but that was out of their control at that point.
They let everyone past after passing Webber but before that they were doing everything to ensure Webber was ok.

To me thats a fair reason to not sort out the race order. "Ample time" is what? A few seconds? What are you suggesting? They tell people to move around and overtake each other for specific positions? Wouldn't this be "manipulation"? There is no rule saying the race order needs to be fixed. Only that punishments are handed to people who break the rules, which involve not overtaking under safety car - which avoids people going out of position. Only lapped cars are ever allowed to pass.
Hamilton wasn't proven to have broken the rules at that point because as has been stated, the stewards/race control didn't have the correct shots to see if Hamilton had passed the line or not. Therefore, they couldn't penalise him until they could prove it. So they couldn't have "fixed" the race order.

By the way, Kobayashi never truly blocked Button, so he wasn't really slowing the field down much. He was setting laptimes close to both Button and Hamilton's times, he was mere tenths off Hamilton's fastest laps! So actually Hamilton would have been in the same position whether the Sauber was there or not.

 

[daan]

By the way, Kobayashi never truly blocked Button, so he wasn't really slowing the field down much. He was setting laptimes close to both Button and Hamilton's times, he was mere tenths off Hamilton's fastest laps! So actually Hamilton would have been in the same position whether the Sauber was there or not.

Not exactly true. Button set fastest race lap when Kobayashi pitted, and gained on Hamilton, so he would have been closer had Kobayashi not been there.

 

[Ardius]

Though Jenson did say he wasn't being held up, Kamui had a decent pace and was pulling away from the pack. He did say he found it difficult to really get good exits and so on because of the dirty air, so he couldn't mount an overtake but I don't think Kobayashi's pace was so bad that it was holding Jenson up loads.
I don't think Jenson would have been miles further up than Kamui was, I think Lewis was always going to finish 2nd.

 

[Seismica]

Though Jenson did say he wasn't being held up, Kamui had a decent pace and was pulling away from the pack. He did say he found it difficult to really get good exits and so on because of the dirty air, so he couldn't mount an overtake but I don't think Kobayashi's pace was so bad that it was holding Jenson up loads.
I don't think Jenson would have been miles further up than Kamui was, I think Lewis was always going to finish 2nd.

I have to disagree, Button was being held up at first. Then he decided to back off a bit to get into clean air to save his tyres as he knew he was not going to pass, Kobayashi was defending aggressively on an already hard to overtake circuit. He was also thinking that Kobayashi would have to pit soon enough, so he played the waiting game.

He was being held up, the raw pace difference between the cars is too great. But we're not talking much more than 5-6 seconds lost here. If Kobayashi had not been in Button's way, Hamilton would have rejoined behind him after the drive through. But Lewis would have kept up and Button's penalty would have swapped them back at the end anyway. So it wouldn't have changed anything I don't think.

 

[Fastas]

I have to disagree, Button was being held up at first. Then he decided to back off a bit to get into clean air to save his tyres as he knew he was not going to pass, Kobayashi was defending aggressively on an already hard to overtake circuit. He was also thinking that Kobayashi would have to pit soon enough, so he played the waiting game.

He was being held up, the raw pace difference between the cars is too great. But we're not talking much more than 5-6 seconds lost here. If Kobayashi had not been in Button's way, Hamilton would have rejoined behind him after the drive through. But Lewis would have kept up and Button's penalty would have swapped them back at the end anyway. So it wouldn't have changed anything I don't think.

I think this is the best explanation of the situation; definitely held up but, in the scheme of things it was of no consequence.

 

[Ardius]

Hmm, but the thing is, Kobayashi was setting similar laps to Lewis at the end of his 50 laps on those tyres and that was when Lewis was charging after Vettel post-penalty. Therefore his pace was not exactly slow, if he could do that on worn tyres.

 

[LizMcQueen]

he was given a warning, and then the rules were clarified...

Yes, all he did was legal (and technically use a rocket launcher to eliminate rivals is legal too).
I mean, He's always on the edge of legality, between good and evil, his actions are not punishable, but from now on (once he did it), if a driver repeats these actions, he will be penalized.
Nothing else, thanks for replying, bye.

 

[Fastas]

Hmm, but the thing is, Kobayashi was setting similar laps to Lewis at the end of his 50 laps on those tyres and that was when Lewis was charging after Vettel post-penalty. Therefore his pace was not exactly slow, if he could do that on worn tyres.

I can only think that perhaps we saw the Kobayashi of last year. There's no way he was quicker than Button but, we know he can do some good stuff and the scent of a podium or, at least a decent points finish was enough to push him on. I doubt Button would challenge him at any given point for track position knowing Kobay' had to pit. Button is a thinker and probably worked out the odds and decided to hold back in any event.

.....bye.

bye.

 

[Ardius]

Yes, all he did was legal (and technically use a rocket launcher to eliminate rivals is legal too).
I mean, He's always on the edge of legality, between good and evil, his actions are not punishable, but from now on (once he did it), if a driver repeats these actions, he will be penalized.
Nothing else, thanks for replying, bye.

There is no "edge of legality" when there are no rules. What is so hard to understand? The cases you refer to never involved rule breaking. He didn't "technically break" them or go to the "edge of legality" - there were no rules to be broken for those particular incidents.

I can only think that perhaps we saw the Kobayashi of last year. There's no way he was quicker than Button but, we know he can do some good stuff and the scent of a podium or, at least a decent points finish was enough to push him on. I doubt Button would challenge him at any given point for track position knowing Kobay' had to pit. Button is a thinker and probably worked out the odds and decided to hold back in any event.

To be fair to Kobayashi, he couldn't show his true potential this year because of various issues, usually reliability for the Sauber.
People keep saying we are seeing "glimpses of the driver we saw at Abu Dhabi" - "glimpses"? The man can't really show his ability when his car won't finish or people take him out. Its nothing to do with his ability, the man hasn't faded he just doesn't have the equipment to consistently show himself.
This is one thing Marty Brundle keeps getting wrong, he was really scathing of him at Turkey before qualifying basically saying he was over-rated. There has only been one retirement this year that was Kobayashi's fault and that was Montreal.

I agree Button would probably have paced himself as he isn't an idiot. But I don't think we should so easily say that Kobayashi was a major hinderance as the times were not that bad. We are talking possibly a few tenths extra for Button on the times he was already doing behind Kamui.

 

[Anghammarad]

"Ample time" is what? A few seconds?

More like a few laps behind the safety car.

What are you suggesting?

I'm suggesting that the pit should be closed until all cars are behind the safety car in the same order as when the crash happened. The safety car should not decide who wins a race.

 

[Ardius]

More like a few laps behind the safety car.

I'm suggesting that the pit should be closed until all cars are behind the safety car in the same order as when the crash happened. The safety car should not decide who wins a race.

Well I can agree with that, though it will still decide who wins the race if someone has already pitted for their tyres just before that as it gets rid of the gap they had to the car in front while the car in front still has to pit. There's still an advantage gained.
Also, in the situation at Valencia, it would mean Vettel and Hamilton would lap the entire field instead. This would take a bit longer to sort out, because the SC would have to wave past the whole field till they get to Vettel and Hamilton. Again, this is potentially a safety issue if its done during the debris-clearing period and potentially wastes racing laps (and TV time for some people).

I agree that drivers shouldn't be gaining huge advantages and rushing to the pits, etc. I'm not sure theres a quick-fire solution though.

 

[Fastas]

Well I can agree with that, though it will still decide who wins the race if someone has already pitted for their tyres just before that as it gets rid of the gap they had to the car in front while the car in front still has to pit. There's still an advantage gained.
Also, in the situation at Valencia, it would mean Vettel and Hamilton would lap the entire field instead. This would take a bit longer to sort out, because the SC would have to wave past the whole field till they get to Vettel and Hamilton.

It's a bit cynical to suggest a team might actually stage a safety car incident in order to let their driver win a race......no wait...did that happen already? What kind of driver would want to profit from a situation like that?

In any event where a safety car is deployed, the prerogative of the safety car, the F.I.A. and the track marshals is to ensure the safety of the drivers that are in need of attention. What happened this weekend was just one of those weird strange coincidences that could not be planned or foreseen and I find it ridiculous that anyone thinks that in a genuine circumstance of safety, someone would try and profit from it.

If perhaps it was Hamilton's team mate then perhaps we should all then start the Hami-hate.

 

[Seismica]

Hmm, but the thing is, Kobayashi was setting similar laps to Lewis at the end of his 50 laps on those tyres and that was when Lewis was charging after Vettel post-penalty. Therefore his pace was not exactly slow, if he could do that on worn tyres.

That's what is great about Kobayashi. Had it been one of the Torro Rossos, or one of the Force Indias, or even De La Rosa in the other Sauber, I think Button and the rest of the pack would have been held up far more.

But like you say, Aside from the first 4-5 laps after the safety car, where Hamilton charged ahead to keep up with Vettel, Kobayashi was putting in times only around 3 tenths off the lead Mclaren which is very impressive considering how far away both the Saubers were on qualifying pace, and how the Mclaren is proven as probably the best for race pace. This is probably the only race Kobayashi has done this year where he's had the clean air in front of him and been able to show us what he's made of.

He's definitely been my favourite rookie driver this season (Sure he did 2 races last year, but he's still a rookie). I don't think Petrov, Algersuari, Hulkenburg or any of the other rookies have quite the talent that he does.

 

[Fastas]

I've only had a day (and several beers) to consider this but,....in a forum of formula one conspiracies,....what is to say that Red Bull didn't plan this to ensure a Vettel win? The Red Bull team could determine when best to... no never mind,...it's the beers.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I've only had a day (and several beers) to consider this but,....in a forum of formula one conspiracies,....what is to say that Red Bull didn't plan this to ensure a Vettel win? The Red Bull team could determine when best to... no never mind,...it's the beers.

Webber isn't Piquet Jr.

 

[Ardius]

Webber isn't Piquet Jr.

I think its obvious now that Fastas is a bit drunk

 

[Alex.]

I only just noticed in Mark Webber's crash he completely took out one of the overhead DHL advertising boards