2010 Formula One European Grand Prix

[niky]

Yes, all he did was legal (and technically use a rocket launcher to eliminate rivals is legal too).

No it isn't. Assault with a deadly weapon is against the law.

I mean, He's always on the edge of legality,

Knowledge of the rules and what is allowed and not allowed help a driver win a Grand Prix. Knowing when you can pit. Knowing how you can overtake. Knowing when it's acceptable to speed up and slow down. Knowing that it's perfectly legal to bunch up the pack behind you before you hit the start-finish line as the safety car comes in (Hamilton does this the most aggressively, but all the drivers do it.)

As long as you know what, specifically, is legal, you are entitled to do it.

Lots of sports rules are amended because the original ones proved insufficient for new situations. The goal-tending rule in Basketball had to be written because the original rule makers never figured they'd have people playing the game who could actually reach the basket without jumping... ...Rule restrictions on turbodiesels in LeMans (though, admittedly, they really aren't trying hard to rewrite the rules). The rule on flexible aero (Ferrari was notorious for finding a work-around for this... their aero was just flexible enough not to break it). The ruling against mass dampers (which I think is a total crock... they should have allowed it).

Smart competitors in F1 read the rulebook top to bottom looking for loopholes to give them an edge. All of them. That includes Renault, Ferrari and McLaren...

between good and evil,

Didn't know we were getting so biblical about the whole thing.

his actions are not punishable,

Except where he actually broke the rules. Where he actually got punished.

but from now on (once he did it), if a driver repeats these actions, he will be penalized.

Any different from anything else?

Alonso benefitted from Renault's mass dampers, which were legal, and won a few championships because of them. The rules were clarified and they were classified "movable aero".

Button's championship benefitted from double diffusers, which were not considered in the diffuser rules, and which will be banned next year.

Schumacher benefitted from team orders, which were legal. He won a race. The rules were changed.

Alonso benefitted from Piquet crashing.... oh... wait... crashing on purpose was already illegal...

Lewis may use every trick in the book, but that's about it. I don't think he's perfect... his conduct during "LieGate" and his pettily vindictive driving after he got hit with the retroactive ruling show much immaturity... but he's not the worst driver out there when it comes to driving dirty. Far from it...

Nothing else, thanks for replying, bye.

See ya.

But Lewis would have kept up and Button's penalty would have swapped them back at the end anyway. So it wouldn't have changed anything I don't think.

Which is still the period at the end of the argument. Even if Lewis had served an earlier drive-through, he would have won places back thanks to the 5-second penalty the other drivers were hit with.

 

[Sonzilla]

- Webber was too aggressive and almost paid for it dearly.

- Alonso is a snitch, worry about your own race buddy stop crying. 👎

- Congrats to kobayashi well done...

- Button u suck and that race proved it....no way Hamilton would have ever been delayed by a BMW Sauber.

Also is it just me or does Button make a whole lot of excuses like Alonso? I'm getting sick of it..

- Congrats Rubens well done.

- Ahh but too bad Kubica your race could have been better but well done anyways P5.

- Vettel blah

- Hamilton you are the man great finish. P2 👍👍👍



Great European race now here we come Silverstone

 

[yeti]

On a different note - Is it me - or did the rear of the new Ferrari seem almost Naked this weekend?

The Renault seemed much more substantial at the back - but the Ferrari's seem to have nothing between the end of the car and the rear wing.

C.

 

[Ardius]

- Webber was too aggressive and almost paid for it dearly.

- Alonso is a snitch, worry about your own race buddy stop crying. 👎

- Congrats to kobayashi well done...

- Button u suck and that race proved it....no way Hamilton would have ever been delayed by a BMW Sauber.

Also is it just me or does Button make a whole lot of excuses like Alonso? I'm getting sick of it..

- Congrats Rubens well done.

- Ahh but too bad Kubica your race could have been better but well done anyways P5.

- Vettel blah

- Hamilton you are the man great finish. P2 👍👍👍

Great European race now here we come Silverstone

Button sucks? He's 6 points behind Hamilton in the championship, I don't think thats particularly rubbish, particularly as he has one DNF that wasn't his fault.

If anything, Button has been the most impressive driver this season, he's been only a few tenths off Lewis and has made the most of his situations.

Is this because he couldn't overtake Kobayashi? Is Kubica rubbish because he couldn't overtake Barrichello? No, because this circuit is difficult to overtake on and Jenson knew this. We have already been over Kobayashi's times being similar to the McLarens, he was not slow on this day. This was not Button being held up by a HRT, he wasn't even being held up much!
I like how you celebrate Kubica's 5th yet say Button sucks for 3rd.

Excuses for Button? Excuses for every racing driver. The difference between Button and Alonso is Button doesn't cry about it on the team radio, tell the press the race was manipulated and say that F1 is all politics and not a sport. In fact, I would love to hear you give an example of Button complaining about anything beyond "normal" complaining. He had those 2007 and 2008 Hondas and he didn't come out telling everyone the team was crap, he just got on with it and complained behind the scenes.
The worst complaint/excuse I can remember from him is the famous "the car is horrible at the moment, what are we doing wrong?" from last year, which is hardly the worst excuse I've ever heard considering the Brawn appeared to be struggling for his driving style.

 

[Sonzilla]

Button sucks? He's 6 points behind Hamilton in the championship, I don't think thats particularly rubbish, particularly as he has one DNF that wasn't his fault.

If anything, Button has been the most impressive driver this season, he's been only a few tenths off Lewis and has made the most of his situations.

Is this because he couldn't overtake Kobayashi? Is Kubica rubbish because he couldn't overtake Barrichello? No, because this circuit is difficult to overtake on and Jenson knew this.
I like how you celebrate Kubica's 5th yet say Button sucks for 3rd.

Yea yea I know the technical details of each track as it applies to the drivers and their position on track.

I just don't like Button I never did he sucks, Hami's the best...👍


Only a couple tenths that's huge in F1, I've yet to see Button overtake a top 5 car convincingly as Hamilton showed plenty of times.

It's obvious Hami's the Better driver, he out Qualifies and out races Button. 👍

My opinion will never change BUTTON and ALONSO SUCKS! They are my enemies.

 

[Ardius]

Yea yea I know the technical details of each track as it applies to the drivers and their position on track.

I just don't like Button I never did he sucks, Hami's the best...👍


Only a couple tenths that's huge in F1, I've yet to see Button overtake a top 5 car convincingly as Hamilton showed plenty of times.

It's obvious Hami's the Better driver, he out Qualifies and out races Button. 👍

My opinion will never change BUTTON SUCKS!

Fantastic, we have a fanboy. 👎

Top 5 car? How about Hamilton's car? I guess you are too blinded to have noticed Button overtook Hamilton at Turkey.
Button's other overtakes this year:
Alonso in Canada for 2nd.
Kubica in Australia for the lead.
Rosberg in China for the lead.
Schumacher in Turkey for 4th.
Webber in Valencia for 6th.

Then there is all the overtakes from last year and previous years. If Lewis is the better driver, how come Button was the one leading the championship earlier this season? If Button sucks, why is he only trailing by 6 points? How did he win twice this year if he sucks?

 

[Sonzilla]

I disagree heavily with what your saying but I can care less BUTTON is garbage no where near Hamilton's telent.

Hamilton will always be better than Button and will remain the points leader over him.

So in conclusion yes Button sucks...;p lol

 

[Bram Turismo]

I disagree heavily with what your saying but I can care less BUTTON is garbage no where near Hamilton's telent.

Hamilton will always be better than Button and will remain the points leader over him.

So in conclusion yes Button sucks...;p lol

Are you Ron Dennis in disguise?

 

[niky]

Wait... Button sucks?

Button may not be as on top of the car as Hamilton in terms of single lap pace, but come on...

Button has proven to be a master of race strategy all season long... driving conservatively when needed... pitting when no one else thought it wise... and benefitting... overtaking in difficult situations...

Button may not have the ultimate speed that guys like Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton have, but he has very canny racecraft. That he's second in the championship despite so-so qualifying times shows how good he is.

He's lucky to have landed a Mclaren seat, and he knows it. Last season's Brawn GP dominance may have been a fluke, but it got him the seat he's got now... and he's making the most of the opportunity.

 

[Sonzilla]

^^lol He doesn't necessarily sucks it's just my humor but still not better than Hami

I'm sorta a new face here but I'm a nice guy by heart and love F1 it's one of my favorite motor sports..Trust me I have 6 F1 seasons recorded on my hard drive I can go for days talking F1. It's bad enough I talk about F1 in another forum I'm apart of where I get very technical regarding each race. I don't want to come in here and start another debate.

I like all the drivers especially Hami, old school with Schumi, Mika and Prost their my favorites. But it's only Button and Alonso I just can't stand, I can give you a million reasons why but mehh who cares there not worth it to me.

 

[Sonzilla]

Are you Ron Dennis in disguise?

I wish!,........ I love RonDee, No Homo!

 

[ruiviterbo]

Hammilton got tallent, so has Vettel and Kubica, they will (probably) win the next 6 years in F1 ... Jenson Button is not World Champion only with luck .... He's probably tallented

 

[Fastas]

^^lol He doesn't necessarily sucks it's just my humor but still not better than Hami

I'm sorta a new face here but I'm a nice guy by heart and love F1 it's one of my favorite motor sports..Trust me I have 6 F1 seasons recorded on my hard drive I can go for days talking F1. It's bad enough I talk about F1 in another forum I'm apart of where I get very technical regarding each race. I don't want to come in here and start another debate.

I like all the drivers especially Hami, old school with Schumi, Mika and Prost their my favorites. But it's only Button and Alonso I just can't stand, I can give you a million reasons why but mehh who cares there not worth it to me.

You can go for days talking about F1 you say? if we condense that down by removing 'Button sucks' how many seconds do we have left? 👎

If you talk about F1 in another forum and, that's bad enough for you, why did you start posting in this one too?

What is this other forum in which you get 'very technical'? I like technical and would be interested to have a read. If you have just come here to start offending people and making ludicrous claims then you might want to reconsider your stance.

 

[Ardius]

^^lol He doesn't necessarily sucks it's just my humor but still not better than Hami

Pfft, you come in here state "Button sucks" then double back and say "its just my humour"?
If I had said "Hamilton sucks" and then later said "I'm just joking", you wouldn't be laughing.

I don't want to come in here and start another debate.

Nooo. Of course you didn't want to start anything.
Forums are for discussion, you post rubbish and it will be discussed. If you didn't want to start a debate, don't post.

I like all the drivers especially Hami, old school with Schumi, Mika and Prost their my favorites. But it's only Button and Alonso I just can't stand, I can give you a million reasons why but mehh who cares there not worth it to me.

Funny, I'd like to hear these "million reasons". So far you have only said "he sucks" without backing it up and claiming its your "humour".
You state :

I've yet to see Button overtake a top 5 car convincingly

And I give you several examples of Button doing just that. Your response is "I disagree"?

You know, I avoid using the popular imagery..but this is a time like no other:

 

[F1 fan]

I don't consider someone finishing second a bad result, unless of course 23 drivers finished 1st 💡 As for Hamilton apologising after the race; I didn't realise that apologising was such an arrogant trait, I always thought it was a decent thing to do 💡

What I meant was that he went over the radio saying "Vettel hit me" and it sounded (imo) like a cry for a penalty. Then later on he apologised to vettel... If he's apologising to vettel in the first place he's acknowledging that he was in the wrong, so shouldn't he have instead said "I hit vettel" over the radio? Besides, his final race position (2nd) wasn't bad. It's how he got it that was bad.

If, by definition to your 'Hamilton Show' quip you mean we have to watch races that involve bravery, excitement, determination and enthralling over-taking manoeuvres then sobeit. If you would rather watch some guys winging on the radio for a whole race you may need to find a new sport for a few years.

No, what I meant by my "Hamilton Show" quip was that he can't expect to whine whenever things don't go to plan. As for me watching F1, I've been watching since I was 3 years old (i'm now 23). I admit that Lewis is a great driver, but he's also very arrogant. The very suggestion I should "find another sport to watch" is ridiculous. Besides, F1 was exciting before Lewis came and it will still be exciting when he goes.

I don't see why Alonso had any right to be angry. Let's face it, of the other 22 drivers that finished behind Hamilton, I don't recall any one of them, or their teams complaining.

Because he was within touching distance of Hamilton who bent the rules then gained a considerable advantage by doing so. Meanwhile Alonso was sitting further up the field getting angrier and angrier in his cockpit about how long it took Lewis to get a penalty.

If or when that scenario ever happens, then we can discuss it constructively. The 'shoe on the other foot' argument doesn't really wash because Hamilton did not go unpunished and on top of it, no one else even complained about it.

Well considering the fact that Lewis whined over his radio about vettel hitting him, then later apologised for the incident just goes to show that he'll do anything to get his way... Like when he lied in Australia back in '09.

All I ever want to see in F1 is a good race and at the end of the year, the winner will be the guy who raced the best over that year. I'll be pleased for whoever that guy is because he will have deserved to be there, that is my view of F1 and it always has been.

Me too. Looks like we agree on some things.

By the way, Hamilton was squeezed by Vettel into Webber. But I guess thats difficult to see for someone clearly with a bias.

Hamilton jumped up the inside of Vettel who held his line. When Vettel was faced with the choice of hitting the wall or hitting hamilton, he chose the latter. Hamilton even apologised for the incident which was ultimately caused by him putting a move on vettel.

I'm really, really disappointed with the Ferrari of late. It was shocking enough in the eighties/nineties when they were also rans.

At least they actually stuck with it. Are you forgetting how many teams have left F1 altogether after a bad season? It was a tough time for them and they stuck with f1. Or does that mean nothing to you? I guess by that logic any formerly succesfull team who's not doing the business on track should bugger off? Do you feel the same way about williams? Why don't you send them an email? I'm sure they'll be very interested to read it.

And to top it off, they want to have a three car team, pah, go and form your own series Ferrari, F1 does not need you.

Are you joking? Ferrari have been with F1 from the very start. They've had more success than any other team, and also stuck with the sport through largely barren periods. Your implication that F1 doesn't need Ferrari is ridiculous. Is that you Max?

Sure, Ferrari wanted to run a three car team... In that instance only two cars per team would score constructors points... What's so ridiculous about that?

You remind me of my older sister. Just before the 98 decider, my sister asked why Schumacher and Hakkinen didn't just race each other for a single lap to decide the title. She was 14...

I think its obvious now that Fastas is a bit drunk

Wonder if that had anything to do with his comments about Ferrari.

Fantastic, we have a fanboy.

Top 5 car? How about Hamilton's car? I guess you are too blinded to have noticed Button overtook Hamilton at Turkey.

Exactly, considering hamilton had to actually make contact with Button to make the move stick.

I'm not sure it was necessary to clarify the "accidentally" there.
Not many people are known to cut off their own fingers for fun!

Even though he implied it, he never stated it was his own finger

That guy had to pay... J/k. Yes, it was my own finger. Thought i'd point out it was an accident... You never know what kind of weirdo you'll find on the net.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Alonso apologizes, FIA calls a meeting of the Sporting Working Group to sort out SC regulations

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84896

 

[Fastas]

Alonso apologizes, FIA calls a meeting of the Sporting Working Group to sort out SC regulations

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84896

I sense some Ferrari and Alonso fanboys blushing a little now.

 

[Famine]

I disagree heavily with what your saying but I can care less BUTTON is garbage no where near Hamilton's telent.

Button and Hamilton have different talents. Hamilton has raw pace and the ability to drive at 105% of the car's limits. But Hamilton's in-race decisions are always taken by his team - Button makes his own calls. And Button knows when to push and when not to - Hamilton's ability to drive at 105% has the drawback that he usually is driving at 105%. Button can take care of his car, his engine, his gearbox, his fuel and, top of the list, his tyres.

Last weekend Button would have gained nothing from getting past Kobayashi at all - he'd have finished in the same 3rd position. So why would it have been worth the risk of trying to pass someone who is known to be slightly errant, when he could sit behind him until he pits, preserving the engine, gearbox, fuel and tyres? No risk strategy - 3rd; High risk strategy - best result of 3rd. Oh, and he still has an engine and gearbox for Silverstone - penalties for changes will be a factor later in the year. Compare to Hamilton who, during the last few laps, went utterly balls-out in a fruitless attempt to catch a driver he'd never pass for absolutely no gain in position at the expense of his car.


Who's the faster driver? Hamilton, no contest. Who's the better driver? Button, no contest.


(though it's worth a note that Button actually got the fastest lap on Sunday - Hamilton still beats Button's fastest lap in 6 of the 8 races where both completed a flying lap [Button ahead in Valencia and Turkey, Button retired on lap 2 in Monaco])

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

The thing is Hamilton pushes way to hard especially at the end of a race and Button is just smarter conserving engine and tires.

Besides you really can't say Button sucks just cause you don't like him.

BTW I like Alonso and I don't get how many people here say this driver said this on team radio and that driver said that... it's not like it's a press conference or something.

 

[Seismica]

I've yet to see Button overtake a top 5 car

Tell me... How is Hamilton only 6 points ahead in the drivers championship, when he has made well over double the on-track (Not including pit overtakes) overtakes that Button has this season, and I think hes qualified ahead of him on all but one occasion?

Heres an interesting bit of info:

http://www.cliptheapex.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1482&start=140#p20025

Up to and including Turkey, Hamilton had made 26 overtakes whilst Button had only made 4. Yet Button was leading in the championship at this point. Both drivers had a DNF to their name, Hamilton in Catalunya, Button in Monaco.

http://www.cliptheapex.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1482&start=150#p20870

According to this, Hamilton made 3 moves in Canada and Button made 2, which puts the totals at 29 and 6 respectively.

Neither driver made an overtake in Valencia.

Overtaking isn't everything.

If you were to calculate the ratio for Number of overtakes relative to points scored, Button would be miles ahead.

 

[Ardius]

Alonso apologizes, FIA calls a meeting of the Sporting Working Group to sort out SC regulations

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84896

Silly autosport, Alonso never "apologised". He simply rambled on about how he was being hot headed. He essentially explained himself but didn't retract or apologise for the things he said.

 

[ExigeEvan]

"You can trust a professional like Michael Schumacher not to just literally turn in on you"

 

[Seismica]

Silly autosport, Alonso never "apologised". He simply rambled on about how he was being hot headed. He essentially explained himself but didn't retract or apologise for the things he said.

He said "At the time, I reacted emotionally and in that situation it is all too easy to adopt a tone and say things that can be interpreted wrongly"

So he's blaming other people for interpreting his words wrongly? He should choose his words more wisely if that's the case.

"You can trust a professional like Michael Schumacher not to just literally turn in on you"

Oh the irony

 

[Fastas]

I was reading up on the Sauber driver's stats yesterday on the BBC web site and something that caught my eye was a comment made by De La Rosa that read (loosely) that if he had the choice, he wouldn't create so many rules for F1.

When you think of it like this, you can understand how we've seen a number of issues with the safety car deployment and re-starts from a safety car period.

I'm not entirely clear myself how the current set of rules are intended to be applied but I can certainly think of the rules that have come in in the past few years and how they seam to conflict.

The logical thing for the FIA to do would be to review all of these rules together, including pitting under a safety car, restarting after a safety car period, the pit lane entry and exit lines, the safety car conditions lines, how closely cars should follow the safety car and lap times under safety car conditions.

I think in order to make the safety car conditions line part of the pit lane lines would be the most appropriate move. This would include a pit lane entry line that has the same rules as the pit lane exit line i.e. a driver can't cross it or overtake whilst in the 'pit lane' whilst entering the pits.

Then, the two safety car lines can be formed perpendicular to the end of the pit lane lines so that there is no ambiguity about whether or not the pit lane is part of the track.

The other thing I'd like to see is clarification on the 'not being able to pit three laps after the safety car deployment' rule (it's probably got a better name than that) which was implemented when re-fuelling was apart of the pit stop.

 

[Pupik]

How come the FIA still can't figure out Safety Car deployment and getting the field right after 18 years?

 

[Ardius]

How come the FIA still can't figure out Safety Car deployment and getting the field right after 18 years?

Whats special about 1992? Edit: Nevermind, I forgot that was the last year of non-safety car racing.

The reason the safety car went a bit wrong here was because:
-they deployed it immediately, which happened to be as Vettel was passing the pits.
-they didn't want to wave through the field and get the field order right because they wanted to focus on getting the medical car on scene immediately and protecting it.
-the field fixed itself later, but the damage was done regarding the Ferrari's and other cars dropping down the field thanks to pit stops and stacking.

As usual, some people were unlucky and lost out. The only issues were Hamilton's timing of overtaking the safety car and the speed some of the drivers were doing when the SC was deployed before coming into the pits. As we have established, Hamilton was just unlucky in making an error which he was duly punished for. The 9 drivers "speeding" were doing so mere seconds before the safety car was called, they could not all slow down in time before finishing the lap (and pitting), but they were all duly punished.
The only complaint was from Ferrari because it didn't work in their favour. Hence they can bugger off.

 

[Anghammarad]

I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous. It sounds like Alonso was the one who broke the rules. Yes, he whines. Yes, he is hot headed. Yes, in the heat of the moment he says stupid things. But the fact of the matter remains that as it turned out Hamilton broke the rules and got away scot free. It's just dumb to blame Alonso for being angry over that.

 

[niky]

Again... are we missing the fact that Hamilton is the only driver who served a full penalty for his infringement?

If the penalty should be harsher (and some are saying it should be), then they should change it at the next meeting. Let's leave it at that.

-----

Liuzzi went on record admitting that he was speeding under the safety car. Even with the yellow flags, the entire field was rushing to get to the pits. He said he slowed down momentarily, then sped up to keep up with everyone else.

When the safety car light started flashing on my steering wheel I was about three or four corners away from the pit entry and I immediately backed off. But as I lifted everybody in front of me kept pushing and, because we were all in a train of cars, I picked up my pace again. I knew I was in a bad position already and didn't want to be screwed over even more by falling behind the pack.

In fact, he was asking why just 5 seconds, when the standard penalty is 20.

Hamilton got the standard drive-through penalty for his infraction, everyone else got off lightly. Which sets a bad precedent. If you get a 5 second penalty for speeding under SC conditions... what's to stop you from building up a 30 second lead over the next driver... diving into the pits, and coming out in the same place... confident that with your new tires, you can build up a cushion much bigger than 5 seconds? This is what caused everyone in that line to maintain race speed to the pits.

But, to be honest, I think the five-second penalty that was handed down was a bit ridiculous. In my opinion they should give a 20-second penalty or nothing at all - it should be one or the other. If they aren't consistent, teams are going to push the rules further and further and then turn around and ask why it isn't the same at every race.

http://en.espnf1.com/forceindia/motorsport/story/21766.html

And this from a guy who got a penalty. A rare case of level-headed fair-mindedness in this cut-throat sport.

And some interesting thoughts on moveable aero... and one vote against, on safety grounds.

Hamilton's ability to drive at 105% has the drawback that he usually is driving at 105%.

Except when he's driving at 150%... and... what happened to my tires?

 

[Famine]

Heres an interesting bit of info

[stats]

I read that and I was intrigued why only on-track overtakes counted. So I did my own maffs on which drivers had gained/lost the most positions. I found the results... interesting

Most Positions Gained (excluding 3 new teams)
1. Jaime Alguersuari - STR - 37 places (4.11/race - average start 16th, average finish 12th)
2. Fernando Alonso - Ferrari - 26 places (2.89/race - average start 8th, average finish 5th)
3. Lewis Hamilton - McLaren - 15 places (1.67/race - average start 6th, average finish 4th)
4. Robert Kubica - Renault - 11 places (1.22/race - average start 7th, average finish 6th)
5. Jenson Button - McLaren - 10 places (1.11/race - average start 7th, average finish 6th)

Most Positions Gained (including 3 new teams)
1. Karum Chandhok - Hispania - 48 places - (5.33/race - average start 23rd, average finish 18th)
2. Jaime Alguersuari - STR - 37 places (4.11/race - average start 16th, average finish 12th)
3. Lucas di Grassi - Virgin - 36 places (4.00/race - average start 22nd, average finish 18th)
4. Fernando Alonso - Ferrari - 26 places (2.89/race - average start 8th, average finish 5th)
(1.11/race - average start 7th, average finish 6th)
5. Bruno Senna - Hispania - 25 places (2.78/race - average start 22nd, average finish 19th)

Now, it ought to be pointed out that Alonso's stats are buoyed by an 18-place haul at Monaco when he started from the pits - but he still had to pass all those cars to finish 6th...

More enlightening are the losers...

Most Positions Lost
1. Sebastian Vettel - RBR - -43 places (-4.78/race - average start 2nd, average finish 7th)
2. Mark Webber - RBR - -38 places (-4.22/race - average start 3rd, average finish 7th)
=3. Kamui Kobayashi - Sauber - -34 places (-3.78/race - average start 14th, average finish 18th)
=3. Pedro de la Rosa - Sauber - -34 places (-3.78/race - average start 14th, average finish 18th)
5. Nico Hulkenberg - Williams - -31 places (-3.44/race - average start 14th, average finish 17th)

The next man to Hulkenberg is... seven times world champion Michael Schumacher, who has lost half the positions that Hulkenberg has (and by extension a third of the positions Vettel loses).

Vettel's had two DNFs so one might expect his loss of positions to be quite high - but it's not significantly different from Webber's, who's only had one DNF - but aside from Rosberg, Massa, Kubica and Alguersuari, everyone's had a DNF.

The Red Bull and Sauber cars are in a class of their own when it comes to losing places...

But the fact of the matter remains that as it turned out Hamilton broke the rules and got away scot free. It's just dumb to blame Alonso for being angry over that.

As it turned out, Hamilton broke the rules and received the exact penalty mandated for breaking that rule. It's just dumb for Alonso to blame Hamilton over that.

Incidentally, I don't recall Virgin/Lotus/Alonso bitching and whining when Karum Chandhok received a 5-place grid penalty for a Parc Ferme infraction at Shanghai which in no way changed his grid slot. He broke a rule, received the exact mandated penalty and it changed nothing.

What's that, Fernando? Tumbleweed?

 

[Seismica]

I read that and I was intrigued why only on-track overtakes counted. So I did my own maffs on which drivers had gained/lost the most positions. I found the results... interesting

Which is why track overtakes are only part of the story Good drivers like Button will use strategy to work around the pack rather than overtaking them on the track like Hamilton does (And it has to be said, he is remarkably good at it). It's just amazing to see the big difference in on-track overtakes.

If we just combine those figures... Button is 'more efficient' with his overtaking, having actually gained 10 places from 6 on-track overtakes, but Hamilton has lost out, with only 15 places gained from 29 on-track overtakes

I think those stats just show the biggest winners and losers so far this season. Algersuari probably the biggest winner among the established teams, but he's often so far down the field he rarely has points to show for it. The most overtaken part just seems to show the cars with DNF in the highest positions. The Virgin Racing cars are probably the least reliable at this stage... But they're always at the back so they don't lose as many places

Incidentally, I don't recall Virgin/Lotus/Alonso bitching and whining when Karum Chandhok received a 5-place grid penalty for a Parc Ferme infraction at Shanghai which in no way changed his grid slot. He broke a rule, received the exact mandated penalty and it changed nothing.