2010 Formula One Japanese Grand Prix

[The Outlaw]

If you look at Petrov's history, you would give him some more time I'm sure

Actually, no I would not. His relative lack of experience is likely why he isn't performing up to par and a reason why I wouldn't keep him in my F1 seat to begin with. IF I were a team owner and money was not an issue, I would find someone else tbh.

Not everyone has spent years in karting and junior formulae.

Of course, nor does everyone have a shot at driving in Formula 1 either just because they have some racing experience. Not saying Vitaly doesn't have great skill, I just think his relative lack of racing credentials are probably hurting what he could have potentially achieved had he started at a much younger age.

And what's wrong with being 26?

Now days all of/if not must of the world class drivers (Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Rosberg) have all developed to a very high level by that age. Vitaly has A LOT of developing to do just to be able to match the much younger rookies. Meaning by the time he does develop to be successful (if he ever does) he likely won't have too much more racing in him (unless he joins the old geezard leauge w/ Barichello & Michael )

Damon Hill did just fine when he came in, why should all rookies be teenagers?

Indeed, Damon did just fine (3rd place in the WDC) in what was basically his rookie year in F1. What has Petrov done?

Petrov's rookie season has been decent, he hasn't made the best use of the car he's in but then he is a rookie. Not everyone can be a Hamilton in their first season. Hulkenburg was expected to do well and Kobayashi is a very special driver. I don't think its really fair to compare Petrov to them two, its better to compare him to say Buemi and Alguersuari.
I agree that he shouldn't be given a 2nd chance at Renault as they have bigger ambitions, but he should be given a chance elsewhere, at the very least with one of the new teams or something.

As you know, I don't agree. But that's just my opinion. I would much rather see someone like Di Resta given a shot...but who knows when that will happen.

 

[Ardius]

I think you're vastly over-stating the capabilities of the average rookie in F1 and using unrealisic benchmarks in Hamilton and Kobayashi. I think Petrov has the potential to be a decent F1 driver, maybe not WDC material but good.
Also Damon's first season was most certainly not 3rd in the WDC! Maybe his first full season, but I wouldn't have considered him much of a rookie that year. My point with Damon was to illustrate that you don't have to start motorsport at an early age to succeed, he did do motorbikes when he was younger but even so, it wasn't much of a background.

I don't subscribe to this ideal that rookies should only be given 1 season, its not nearly enough. I also don't think you have to start at a young age to show talent, I believe thats a corporate ideal rather than a fact of life. As with the Damon example, you can start late and still be competitive.

 

[The Outlaw]

I think you're vastly over-stating the capabilities of the average rookie in F1 and using unrealisic benchmarks in Hamilton and Kobayashi.

Maybe so, but Kobayashi and Hulkenburg have shown what a proper rookie (in my eyes) is capable of.

I think Petrov has the potential to be a decent F1 driver, maybe not WDC material but good.
Also Damon's first season was most certainly not 3rd in the WDC!.

Ok, so he had competed in TWO races (in 92') before that and had several DNQ's during that season in a car which most of the time was so uncompetitive it could barely qualify for the race. In 93' he came in with two races under his belt and finished 3rd in the WDC. Again, what has Petrov achieved after all these races?

I don't subscribe to this ideal that rookies should only be given 1 season, its not nearly enough.

Then why did you write off Grosjean so quickly (who showed more speed than Vitaly in a car which lacked a lot of DF/ and was very uncompetitive).

 

[Ardius]

Hill had many miles of testing under his belt at Williams test driver too....he was in a dominant FW15....it was also 1993, when the difference between 1st to 10th was as big as the gap from 1st to 20th is today.
Obviously, I referred to this example because Hill did well, but then Petrov has less experience than Hill and is driving in a completely different era.

I've stated many times I would like to see Grosjean back in F1, as I've included him in my lists of potential drivers to replace Petrov at Renault. However, I did at the time not think much of Grosjean, I did feel he deserved more time but also didn't see the potential. I do see the potential in Petrov.
You could say that 1 season is enough to allow a rookie to show something, but 1 season is not enough to judge how good he is completely. If Renault had re-signed Grosjean, I wouldn't have been surprised. (I think I even said so at the time because it was difficult to judge)

I think Petrov has shown some flashes of speed, I seem to remember China being pretty good and Hungary. Another season would tell us if he learns or if he can only produce flashes.

I so miss the days of Minardi, Tyrrell, etc being such great places for rookies to learn their trade - no pressure for championships but enough potential in the cars to show something at least one or two races in the season. I think back to Salo, Fisichella, Trulli, Panis all having their time to shine and hence secure better drives.
Going backwards like Petrov (and Hamilton before him) has, its rarely going to go well, he's always going to look bad paired with Kubica and put under pressure to perform not just for personal success but to actually match Kubica.
Imagine if Petrov had been at Lotus paired with Trulli in 2010, would we be talking about how he should be kept on?

I guess the problem is, you're looking at only WDC-capable rookies, when I personally feel not everyone is up WDC standards from the off. I also feel there is a place for drivers who aren't necessarily the best of the best. Many of my favourite drivers never challenged for a WDC but they were all good drivers. In other words, there is a place for drivers of the Fisichella/Trulli/Frentzen/etc callibre - good but not amazing.

 

[lpb-nissan-gt-r]

Good race from Kobayashi man of the yesterday to be honest I like Lee Mckenzie but I prefer Jake he has a great personality about him and really does liven things up alot, put Lee back in her old roll.
Bad luck Hamilton I feel its a two horse race between Webber and Vettel now.
Paris

 

[Enigma]

Its a pity about Petrov's start, even though it was his own fault, he had an absolute blinder of a start and was going to make up a shed load of places.

In reality though Petrov is paying a lot of money for that seat, I wonder if he would still be there otherwise.

 

[The Outlaw]

Hill had many miles of testing under his belt at Williams test driver too....he was in a dominant FW15....it was also 1993, when the difference between 1st to 10th was as big as the gap from 1st to 20th is today.
Obviously, I referred to this example because Hill did well, but then Petrov has less experience than Hill and is driving in a completely different era.

I agree. Two completely different eras - two completely different results.

I think Petrov has shown some flashes of speed, I seem to remember China being pretty good and Hungary. Another season would tell us if he learns or if he can only produce flashes.

I think my biggest criticism is that I haven't seen him make any real noticeble improvement or promise throughout the season, despite getting more experience under his belt and an ever improving car. This is what's making me question his potential - but maybe as you say I'm being too critical and should give him 1 more season to really step his game up (which he really needs to do - as he is by far the biggest slacker in F1 relative to his team mate by far) to prove that he belongs in modern day F1 (where the driver market continues to become increasingly competitive). Hulkenburg on the other hand has made great improvement in his performance thus far, now to the point where he is quite competitive with Ruben's.

I so miss the days of Minardi, Tyrrell, etc being such great places for rookies to learn their trade - no pressure for championships but enough potential in the cars to show something at least one or two races in the season. I think back to Salo, Fisichella, Trulli, Panis all having their time to shine and hence secure better drives. .

I agree. Teams like Minardi and Sauber were great stepping stones for the future success of drivers like Alonso, Raikkonen, and Massa. Kobayashi might very well do the same with Sauber in the future if he keeps it up. I don't think he quite has the finness and accuracy as some of the top guys in the sport but for some reason his race craft seems to be quite incredible.

Going backwards like Petrov (and Hamilton before him) has, its rarely going to go well, he's always going to look bad paired with Kubica and put under pressure to perform not just for personal success but to actually match Kubica.
Imagine if Petrov had been at Lotus paired with Trulli in 2010, would we be talking about how he should be kept on?.

If he was getting outperformed by several tenths I would still argue the same. But fact is, the back markers cars are very difficult cars to drive so IMO it's a bit more difficult to justify being so critical.

I guess the problem is, you're looking at only WDC-capable rookies, when I personally feel not everyone is up WDC standards from the off. I also feel there is a place for drivers who aren't necessarily the best of the best. Many of my favourite drivers never challenged for a WDC but they were all good drivers. In other words, there is a place for drivers of the Fisichella/Trulli/Frentzen/etc callibre - good but not amazing.

True, I just feel there are other drivers out there more deserving of the oppurtunity. Petrov has gotten by simply on the fact that he is Russian and brings a lot of money to the table - but I clearly understand that is an important aspect of F1.

 

[Peter]

I still think Alonso's gonna bag this WDC .


Anyway, Korea's to be inspected tomorrow. It's already tomorrow in Korea, is the track passed?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's already tomorrow in Korea, is the track passed?

The inspection takes 48 hours. Charlie Whiting doesn't just show up and go "Yep, it's ready". He has to examine every facet of the circuit, which is not something a cursory glance will reveal. No verdict is expected until Wednesday at the earliest.

 

[boiltheocean]

My post was about Lee's hosting not about the iPad. Mentioning it in one sentence is not 'going on' about it.

I wasn't referring to that one sentence, more the fact that you always bring up this issue that you have over Jake using an iPad. You do most definitely go on about it.

 

[Peter]

The inspection takes 48 hours. Charlie Whiting doesn't just show up and go "Yep, it's ready". He has to examine every facet of the circuit, which is not something a cursory glance will reveal. No verdict is expected until Wednesday at the earliest.

Sorry, I should have re-worded that. Has he began inspection?

 

[The Outlaw]

It's going to be very interesting to see how the track surface holds up in S. Korea, being that it will be so fresh come race weekend. That could be pretty disasterous (for the sport & Championship) if the asphalt starts lifting due to the immense forces generated by modern F1 cars

 

[Peter]

Does an F1 car create forces capable of lifting up a road? Wouldn't the downforce, umm, push them down onto the road?

 

[Ardius]

Does an F1 car create forces capable of lifting up a road? Wouldn't the downforce, umm, push them down onto the road?

Not downforce, the force of the tyres gripping the tarmac, refer to Canada 2008 to see what can happen with a poor track surface.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

Yup is the track surface dosnt have enough time to properly cure patches will start to be ripped up.

 

[Bevo49]

I think its funny that Mark Webber grabbed the fastest lap on his last lap, that will give vettel the *****....lol


Go Mark!!!!

 

[The Outlaw]

Yup is the track surface dosnt have enough time to properly cure patches will start to be ripped up.

Isn't your user title "Vettle for '09 WDC" a little bit old?

Also, (sorry for being overly critical) but his last name is spelled Vettel, not Vettle. Seeing his last name so often mis-spelled by people (who are fans of him) is starting to bug me for some reason

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Sorry, I should have re-worded that. Has he began inspection?

How the hell should I know? It's not yet 10am local time in South Korea.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

Isn't your user title "Vettle for '09 WDC" a little bit old?

Also, (sorry for being overly critical) but his last name is spelled Vettel, not Vettle. Seeing his last name so often mis-spelled by people (who are fans of him) is starting to bug me for some reason

Yea I should probably get around to changing that.

 

[albteman015]

they should have some form of running on the track to pound the asphalt in and rubber it down. I think bridgestone should bring the 2 hardest compounds they have for korea. Having f1 cars on fresh asphalt will be stupid.

 

[niky]

Having F1 cars on slippery asphalt will be exciting. Some of the best races and qualifyings this year have been on tricky surfaces.

Maybe they should just hose the whole thing down to preserve the surface during the race?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm hoping that the surface will produce some good racing. And judging by the gameplay videos of the circuit on F1 2010, the circuit might have a hidden strength - the back section is very confusing. If the walls are as close and as high as the game suggests they are, drivers fighting for position could get lost and make unforced errors ...

 

[Hun200kmh]

Hey, is this the Korean GP thread already?


Back to Suzuka, did anyone else find Jenson's strategy condemned to failure? I did, but didn't think much about the why's and the what's of it.

Now, it seems Horner didn't appreciate it and makes some wild assumptions that deserve to be discussed.

Here: http://en.espnf1.com/japan/motorsport/story/30922.html

To be honest, I just think someone at McLaren tried to be creative and gambled on possible SC periods due to rain or crashes (remember what happened to SV at Monza, where he pitted only in the last lap with obvious gains from it). But ... we never know.


EDIT: I didn't post any comments on the race. So, here goes, from a F1 fan point of view the race can be referred to (and remembered) mentioning just two very long words:

KAMUUUUUUUUUUUUUUIIIII KOBAYAAAAAAAASSSSSSSHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII! 👍 👍 👍

 

[daan]

Back to Suzuka, did anyone else find Jenson's strategy condemned to failure? I did, but didn't think much about the why's and the what's of it.

Now, it seems Horner didn't appreciate it and makes some wild assumptions that deserve to be discussed.

If McLaren had left Jenson out long enough to hold up the Red Bulls, then he may have had a point, but they didn't, so he hasn't.

RBR got a 1-2. What more does he want?

 

[Ardius]

Jenson's strategy relied on the soft tyres wearing a lot faster, they made that decision based on their Friday running...but then they seemed to have forgot all the previous races where the soft tyres have lasted a long time.
As with all gambles, it looks stupid if it doesn't work, but if it had worked it would have looked very clever. Swings and roundabouts.

 

[Seismica]

Hey, is this the Korean GP thread already?


Back to Suzuka, did anyone else find Jenson's strategy condemned to failure? I did, but didn't think much about the why's and the what's of it.

Now, it seems Horner didn't appreciate it and makes some wild assumptions that deserve to be discussed.

Here: http://en.espnf1.com/japan/motorsport/story/30922.html

To be honest, I just think someone at McLaren tried to be creative and gambled on possible SC periods due to rain or crashes (remember what happened to SV at Monza, where he pitted only in the last lap with obvious gains from it). But ... we never know.

Very good... but, didn't Hamilton develop his gear problem after Button's pitstop? Or maybe it was just the delay on the team radio... i'm pretty sure Hamilton's car was fine when Button pitted.

 

[Danny]

'Kubica's missing a wheel! Well, that must be what's gone wrong...'

Thankyou, Jonathan.

 

[Sureboss]

He is so annoying, pointing the bleeding obvious half the time and the other half the time, just talking complete nonsense. He's the only weak part of the BBC coverage (excluding Holly Samos, though she's not around enough to be a part of it)

 

[The Outlaw]

If McLaren had left Jenson out long enough to hold up the Red Bulls, then he may have had a point, but they didn't, so he hasn't.

RBR got a 1-2. What more does he want?

Well I think it was quite clear that the RB's backed off by a considerable margin (probably a second a lap or more over a 10+ lap period) once they started to come within range of Button. Button's lap prior to his in lap was a 35.9 (I believe his PB at that point) and Vettel was putting in 36's (36.3 on Button's in lap) while he was stuck behind Button, and on the very next lap after Button pitted Seb put in a 34.7 and continued to improve his times as fuel burned off. Regardless, Button was never left out long enough to allow Alonso to get jammed up behind the Bulls which would then allow Hamilton to have caught up (of course if he hadn't had the gearbox issue). So it is a moot point by Horner really.

And in the end, (as you said) they got an easy 1-2 and led comfortably the entire time and it was RB's choice to back off by a country mile while they waited for Button to pit.

 

[niky]

I actually do believe that the Button strategy did involve backing up the faster runners so Hamilton could get close. The RBRs clearly suffered behind Button, spacing themselves out and pacing him. I remember pointing this out during the race, watching the live-timing screens where Hamilton was much faster in the first sector than the RBRs at this point. This would have given Hamilton an excellent chance of at least making a podium by taking Alonso and at most taking second over Alonso and Webber. That is, until his gearbox broke. Again.

The RBRs are fast, but there's little chance that they could run up in Button's dirty air safely and do an overtake on him on the slower parts of the track... he wasn't that much slower than them. They had to back off to preserve the cars.

This strategy does not hurt Button all that much. He doesn't have the raw pace to catch or keep up with the top three... and the possibility of safety cars and/or rain would have given him a chance to do a Kobayashi on Alonso, but that just didn't happen.