2010 Italian Grand Prix

But even with the low downforce setup if he stalled it as well he would have almost no drag.

Well, the F-duct means adding parts which raise the centre of gravity of the car. It also creates a little bit of drag in itself, which offsets the small benefit of stalling a low-downforce wing.

I was under the impression that Mclaren were trying to throw the other teams off when they said they weren't running the F-Duct. It appears they weren't, and the low downforce setup is actually faster. But here we have Button, not an amazingly fast driver, but he's on the front row with a higher downforce setup than the rest of the field. Overall, he's been faster than Lewis all weekend. I have no doubt that Lewis is a faster driver and his setup is ultimately the faster car over one lap. But over a race distance? As Ardius says, it's a balance between a fast or a stable setup.

Come the race, I believe the extra downforce on Button's car is going to help him immensely. Nobody is going to out-brake him into any of the chicanes, that's for sure. All he has to do is line up his car on the inside and nobody can pass him. With higher downforce of course, he gets quicker exits out of the corners, so his top speed disadvantage will not be a hinderance. He'll also get longer tyre life, which will allow him to be a lot more flexible with his strategy, and perhaps gain some time when other drivers are struggling with their tyres towards the end.

That said, I do think he will have trouble actively overtaking other cars, because the low-downforce (And therefore low-drag) setups of the competitors will mean he won't get much of a toe from their slipstream. As long as Button gets ahead of Alonso on the first lap I think he'll have the race in the bag.
 
Alonso FTW! With a Ferrari 1-2. Button will probably have a tough time keeping Massa behind him considering Massa has a 7-8mph speed trap advantage, although he still may be able to come in 2nd in the end as he seems to be a bit quicker over one lap and will likely have a more consistant car (on it's tires) throughout the race.

Hopefully Button finishes 3rd so he can steal some points away from Webber and Ham, in order to give Alonso a better shot at staying in contention for the title.
 
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Darn, the second race without a Red Bull on Pole...

Webber in fourth, Vettel in sixth. If Webber can hold off Hamilton though, he'll regain the top spot in the champ standings.

So, fingers crossed.
 
I hope to god that Alonso's engine blows up, and Massa passes to Button to win.
 
Alonso blows you a kiss

fernando_alonso_2006_malaysia.jpg


And says he will be spraying victory champaign on you all tomorrow :)

article-0-08B73C2C000005DC-676_306x423.jpg
 
I can see an unfortunate 'mechanical incident' seeing Massa retire from the lead to gift Alonso the win tomorrow with Button and Vettel making up the podium. I can also see a accident between Hamilton and Webber ending their races and some smug FIA tosser at the end saying 'well that blew it all open again' before scuttling off to script the next race for our 'pleasure'.

Hamilton FTW.
 
Well, the F-duct means adding parts which raise the centre of gravity of the car. It also creates a little bit of drag in itself, which offsets the small benefit of stalling a low-downforce wing.

I was under the impression that Mclaren were trying to throw the other teams off when they said they weren't running the F-Duct. It appears they weren't, and the low downforce setup is actually faster. But here we have Button, not an amazingly fast driver, but he's on the front row with a higher downforce setup than the rest of the field. Overall, he's been faster than Lewis all weekend. I have no doubt that Lewis is a faster driver and his setup is ultimately the faster car over one lap. But over a race distance? As Ardius says, it's a balance between a fast or a stable setup.

Come the race, I believe the extra downforce on Button's car is going to help him immensely. Nobody is going to out-brake him into any of the chicanes, that's for sure. All he has to do is line up his car on the inside and nobody can pass him. With higher downforce of course, he gets quicker exits out of the corners, so his top speed disadvantage will not be a hinderance. He'll also get longer tyre life, which will allow him to be a lot more flexible with his strategy, and perhaps gain some time when other drivers are struggling with their tyres towards the end.

That said, I do think he will have trouble actively overtaking other cars, because the low-downforce (And therefore low-drag) setups of the competitors will mean he won't get much of a toe from their slipstream. As long as Button gets ahead of Alonso on the first lap I think he'll have the race in the bag.

Nice analysis but i still have a question. According to what you said the only significant advantage of a low-downforce setup against the f-duct setup is the reduce of slip-stream your opponents will gain behind you(i don't consider weight balance is affected enough to be considered a disadvantage, and i am not sure its own drag is important either.).So if that's it,why don't choose an F-duct setup for qualifying and change it to a low downforce one, if they prefer it for some reason, for the race?Is this prohibited?

P.S. Is there any other disadvantage the f-duct has that i miss?
 
Nice analysis but i still have a question. According to what you said the only significant advantage of a low-downforce setup against the f-duct setup is the reduce of slip-stream your opponents will gain behind you(i don't consider weight balance is affected enough to be considered a disadvantage, and i am not sure its own drag is important either.).So if that's it,why don't choose an F-duct setup for qualifying and change it to a low downforce one, if they prefer it for some reason, for the race?Is this prohibited?

P.S. Is there any other disadvantage the f-duct has that i miss?

Nah, I didn't say it was the only advantage, there is also the obvious advantage of the speed gained from the straights (Button's car is probably the slowest through the end-straight speedtraps). I actually think the Ferraris have went for a low-downforce + F-duct setup which appears to have been the most effective.

They cannot change major components (Including body parts like wings and engine covers) between qualifying and the race as the cars are under Parc Ferme. (Without incurring a grid penalty) That analysis was from Button's point of view, assessing his chances :)

So Hamilton cannot change his car to a higher downforce F-duct configuration like Button now. He'll probably regret it in the race when his car is sliding all over the place and pushing hard simply to match Button's times.
 
I'd say Ferrari were running medium to low downforce judging by their wing elements and relative trap speed compared to the other two Ferrari powered chassis (which were trapping considerably higher).
 
Hey guys, I just came from the future to let everyone know that Alonso has won the 2010 Italian GP @ Monza. Were about to go celebrate in downtown, See ya! :cheers:
 
Hey guys, I just came from the future to let everyone know that Alonso has won the 2010 Italian GP @ Monza. Were about to go celebrate in downtown, See ya! :cheers:

Ok see you tomorrow.:)
 
Seeing as we're all making predictions, I predict Alonso won't win, just like when I predicted Webber wouldn't win last race.
Pole position seems unlucky to me. (though I only predicted Webber wouldn't win last time because I doubt his ability to dominate a race from pole like that)

I think Button is in a great position to really mix it up. The major interesting part of this race will be whether or not his high downforce setup will play a part or not. It could potentially provide him a more consistent and less-wearing car. However, the conditions don't appear to be favouring tyre effeciency as Monza isn't a high wear track in the first place.
If it rained, it would be interesting as his high downforce setup would presumably give him a almost dominant advantage. But chances of rain appear slim.

Does anyone else wonder what mayhem Webber, Vettel and Hamilton may potentially cause starting next to each other? All aggressive drivers still in the hunt and desperate to gain on each other faced with a long straight which narrows into a chicane where a lot of incidents have happened over the years....

Its nice to have another race which is difficult to predict, this year really could have been straight Red Bull 1-2s for most of it. I hope for the championship's sake that the finishing order is similar to qualifying just so it makes it tighter.

Will be watching for another demon start by Kobayashi. 👍
 
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1st:Massa
2nd:Alonso
3rd:Button
It's going to be a great race.
 
1st: Sakon Yamamota
2nd: Bruno Senna
3rd: Jeff Gordon
It's going to be a great race.
:p
 
1st:Massa
2nd:Alonso
3rd:Button
It's going to be a great race.

I agree with you except for one little detail
1st:Alonso
2nd:Massa ( alonso is faster than you)
3rd: Button
 
Interesting that most british hate Alonso. The word 'fanboy' comes to mind tbch.
 
Interesting that most british hate Alonso. The word 'fanboy' comes to mind tbch.

I thought that was normal nowadays:dopey:
 
I don't really care who drives for Ferrari so long as they are quick and they win championships whether its drivers or constructors.
My issue isn't with Alonso. I'm actually pretty neutral on him. I don't particularly like him, but I don't particularly dislike him, either. No, my issue is with Ferrari - because they're not Ferrari anymore. They don't represent the things they used to. Ferrari, as a name, was the spirit of passion, of speed and excellence. They embodied everyting about the sport: exotic and competitive and passionate. Now, they're just soulless automatons who care more about winning at any cost than the actual racing. Between their little stunt in Germany, the way they lash out at the new teams simply for existing (bearing in mind that there was a time not so long ago when cars six second off the pace were commonplace - and there was a time when they were one of those teams) and their attempts to force their vision of the sport - one where they win and everyone owes something to them - as the only viable future for Formula 1 down everybody's throat and they've lost all meaning. They might be red and they might have the prancing stallion insignia, but they are not Ferrari. They deserve to spend a couple of seasons at the back of the grid, remembering who they are and where they came from. Because right now, they're just some dark parody of Ferrari - their passion and their excellence superseded by a desire to win at all costs that has undermined the sport for years. They said last year that Formula 1 would die without Ferrari. Well, Formula 1 doesn't currently have Ferrari on the grid and the sport is doing better than ever. That's why I hope Alonso's engine blows on the formation lap. I want the most important race of the season for "Ferrari" to come with the realisation that for all their dirty tactics - flexing parts, team orders - they haven't got a chance at winning the World Championship.
 
^^ err where have you been the last 15 years?
 
My issue isn't with Alonso. I'm actually pretty neutral on him. I don't particularly like him, but I don't particularly dislike him, either. No, my issue is with Ferrari - because they're not Ferrari anymore.. They don't represent the things they used to. Ferrari, as a name, was the spirit of passion, of speed and excellence.

Ludicrous. Ferrari as a racing team have as much passion as they've ever had. I don't see how you can question this really, nor how you have come to this conclusion.

Yesterday's Pole position is proof of this, as they continue to display the fighting/never say die spirit which is needed to keep their hopes of winning the title alive.

They embodied everything about the sport: exotic and competitive and passionate. Now, they're just soulless automatons who care more about winning at any cost than the actual racing. Between their little stunt in Germany, the way they lash out at the new teams simply for existing (bearing in mind that there was a time not so long ago when cars six second off the pace were commonplace - and there was a time when they were one of those teams) and their attempts to force their vision of the sport - one where they win and everyone owes something to them - as the only viable future for Formula 1 down everybody's throat and they've lost all meaning. They might be red and they might have the prancing stallion insignia, but they are not Ferrari. They deserve to spend a couple of seasons at the back of the grid, remembering who they are and where they came from. Because right now, they're just some dark parody of Ferrari - their passion and their excellence superseded by a desire to win at all costs that has undermined the sport for years.

Win at all cost? What do you mean? If they wanted to win at all cost they would be doing things of much worse nature (ie. running their competitors off the road like lunatics, ala Senna & Schumacher to win titles. Or purposely staging crashes to effect the ENTIRE outcome of races...like Mr. Sleezatore did in Singapore 08.)

They have a great passion to win, that is no question in my mind...but at all cost? I don't know about that. I'm not one of those who thinks they should be kicked out of Formula 1 for deciding what is in THEIR best interest when they have one driver (who is fortunate enough to get paid millions upon millions of dollars to drive for them :rolleyes:) concede position to another driver in order to maximize their already dwindling chances of winning another title (which they haven't been all that successful at in the past 5 years).

Also, Luca D doesn't = Ferrari so his comments shouldn't be taken with too much meaning. Not to mention that I agree with him to an extent, as HRT has just been filling up the grid this years with no real promise or definite commitment for the future...just a half assed entry to fill up the grid and go with the flow (and get in the way)...which isn't what Formula 1 should be about IMO (nor does it motivate a well established team like Ferrari to continue competing). Then we had entries like USF1 trying to get in which ended up making a complete mockery of the selection process. I will say Lotus in particular have shown good promise and Virgin to a lesser extent...so I for one give credit where credit is due. Although I don't feel Virgin will be much more than back markers unless Mr. Branson decides to take things more seriously and invests more money in his Formula 1 program like he does with his Earthrace boat :lol: IMO, he just doesn't seem that committed to success given his massive reserves of wealth :sick:

They said last year that Formula 1 would die without Ferrari. Well, Formula 1 doesn't currently have Ferrari on the grid and the sport is doing better than ever. That's why I hope Alonso's engine blows on the formation lap. I want the most important race of the season for "Ferrari" to come with the realisation that for all their dirty tactics - flexing parts, team orders - they haven't got a chance at winning the World Championship.

I hope you are aware that plenty of teams have been guilty of dirty tactics (if you want to call team orders that) in the past. What about Mclaren's foul play in recent years...the Spygate and Liargate scandals come to mind (much worse than TEAM orders IMO) and their team orders @ the German GP in 2008. I don't see you going out of your way to hate on them though. Maybe that's because good old Jenson Button drives for them with Martin Whitmarsh acting as Mr. Goodie-two-Shoes "oh we can't figure out what they are doing (flexiwings), so we claim foul play because we follow the rules and are proper sportsman" nonsense. And omg, we haven't seen teams push the boundaries of the technical regulations each and every year in Formula 1? You mustn't have been a follower of Formula 1 for very long if you want to go out of your way to criticize Ferrari and only Ferrari for such...
 
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My issue isn't with Alonso. I'm actually pretty neutral on him. I don't particularly like him, but I don't particularly dislike him, either. No, my issue is with Ferrari - because they're not Ferrari anymore. They don't represent the things they used to. Ferrari, as a name, was the spirit of passion, of speed and excellence. They embodied everyting about the sport: exotic and competitive and passionate. Now, they're just soulless automatons who care more about winning at any cost than the actual racing. Between their little stunt in Germany, the way they lash out at the new teams simply for existing (bearing in mind that there was a time not so long ago when cars six second off the pace were commonplace - and there was a time when they were one of those teams) and their attempts to force their vision of the sport - one where they win and everyone owes something to them - as the only viable future for Formula 1 down everybody's throat and they've lost all meaning. They might be red and they might have the prancing stallion insignia, but they are not Ferrari. They deserve to spend a couple of seasons at the back of the grid, remembering who they are and where they came from. Because right now, they're just some dark parody of Ferrari - their passion and their excellence superseded by a desire to win at all costs that has undermined the sport for years. They said last year that Formula 1 would die without Ferrari. Well, Formula 1 doesn't currently have Ferrari on the grid and the sport is doing better than ever. That's why I hope Alonso's engine blows on the formation lap. I want the most important race of the season for "Ferrari" to come with the realisation that for all their dirty tactics - flexing parts, team orders - they haven't got a chance at winning the World Championship.

I agree with you on certain things that I think Ferrari are doing wrong. But at the same time why is it Ferrari that has to be blamed for half the stuff that other teams are doing just the same? You mention flexi wings and team orders. At least one other team is using "flexi" wings and it is really as much of a loophole in the rules as the f duct, doule diffuser etc. As for team orders every team does it. Ferrari were obviously stupid how they went by it but I think it was done on purpose to send his team a message he disagrees with giving massa the order. Either way anyone would be deluded to think team orders don't exist.

As for dirty tactics look at what two other teams in recent years have been found guilty of. Dirty tactics exist in sport and in life. I see it daily in my line of work and basically it is necessary if you want to succeed whether you like it or not. It isn't a nice look at life but thats how it is. Sure it may be a step away from what you say Ferrari used to be but if everyone else is doing it you are going to finish last. Nobody really cares for the loser.

Also add a big thumbs up to timeattack07gt's comments. They better explain what I was trying to say.
 
Ludicrous. Ferrari as a racing team have as much passion as they've ever had. I don't see how you can question this really, nor how you have come to this conclusion.
Yes, they have passion - they're just applying it differently. Wrongly. Ferrari always had a passion for the sport; now they only have a passion for winning.

Yesterday's Pole positions is proof of this, as they continue to display the fighting/never say die spirit which is needed to keep their hopes of winning the title alive.
Pfffft. Sorry, but I didn't see that. If you want the never-say-die spirit, look at the way McLaren ran two casr with two entirely different setups and yet came second and fourth.

Win at all cost? What do you mean? If they wanted to win at all cost they would be doing things of much worse nature (ie. running their competitors off the road like lunatics, ala Senna & Schumacher to win titles. Or purposely staging crashes to effect the ENTIRE outcome of races...like Mr. Sleezatore did in Singapore 08.)
By win at all costs, I mean their use of team orders. None of the other teams were willing to do it (or at least do it so brazenly), but Ferrari obviously felt they could get away with it. The reason why they don't deliberately crash or run others off the road is because they know they'll be disqualified. For the past fifteen years, Ferrari have treated the rules as suggestions - they criticised the FIA for establishing two different rule books last year with the budget cap row, yet they've clearly demonstrated that they think there is a second set of rules for them to play by.

They have a great passion to win, that is no question in my mind...but at all cost? I don't know about that. I'm not one of those who thinks they should be kicked out of Formula 1 for deciding what is in THEIR best interest when they have one driver (who is fortunate enough to get paid millions upon millions of dollars to drive for them :rolleyes:) concede position to another driver in order to maximize their already dwindling chances of winning another title (which they haven't been all that successful at in the past 5 years).
I don't think they should be kicked out, just taken down a peg.

Also, Luca D doesn't = Ferrari so his comments shouldn't be taken with too much meaning. Not to mention that I agree with him to an extent, as HRT has just been filling up the grid this years with no real promise or definite commitment for the future...just a half assed entry to fill up the grid and go with the flow (and get in the way)...which isn't what Formula 1 should be about IMO (nor does it motivate a well established team like Ferrari to continue competing). Then we had entries like USF1 trying to get in which ended up making a complete mockery of the selection process. I will say Lotus in particular have shown good promise and Virgin to a lesser extent...so I for one give credit where credit is due. Although I don't feel Virgin will be much more than back markers unless Mr. Branson decides to take things more seriously and invests more money in his Formula 1 program like he does with his Earthrace boat :lol: IMO, he just doesn't seem that committed to success given his massive reserves of wealth :sick:
Luca doesn't equal Ferrari? Then what is he doing there? Why is his title President of Ferrari? Why doesn't Ferrari ever say "No, we don't believe that" every time he opens his mouth?

I hope you are aware plenty of teams have been guilty of dirty tactics (if you want to call team orders that) in the past. What about Mclaren's foul play in recent years...the Spygate and Liargate scandals come to mind (much worse than TEAM orders IMO). I don't see you going out of your way to hate on them. Maybe that's because good old Jenson Button drives for them with Martin Whitmarsh acting as Mr. Goodie-two-Shoes "oh we can't figure out what they are doing (flexiwings), so we claim foul play because we follow the rules and are proper sportsman" nonsense. And omg, we haven't seen teams push the boundaries of the technical regulations each and every year in Formula 1? You mustn't have been a follower of Formula 1 for very long if you want to go out of your way to criticize Ferrari and only Ferrari for such...
I never said the other teams were perfect. Only that Ferrari were the least-perfect of them all. And while McLaren may have been complicit in the Spygate drama, a) it never could have happened without Nigel Stepney, a Ferrari employee, and b) there is evidence to suggest that neither Stepney nor Coughlan actually intended for the F2007 data to wind up at McLaren, but rather that they were both going to defect to Honda. And at least teams like McLaren and Williams and Mercedes don't go out of their way to try and force their will upon the other teams. Seriously, Ferrari lost a lot of power last year with the manufacurer exodus and the grid expanding. They could have called on McLaren-Mercedes, BMW Sauber, Toyota, Renault and Toro Rosso to support them during political tensions - but with BMW and Toyota exiting, Mercedes establishing their own team and Renault concentrating on overcoming their humiliation last year, Ferrari only have Sauber and Toro Rosso to back them up. And if Ferrari's interests don't align with Red Bull's, Toro Rosso will always support Red Bull. So they've gone from having the support of about 75% of the grid to about 20% in the space of a year. You don't think their attempts to field three-car teams or allow the new teams the use of a Ferrari chassis were anything but a ploy to gain more leverage over the grid. Why else would Martin Whitmarsh say that McLaren are working on becoming the sport's pre-eminent team? The answer is pretty obvious - Ferrari are losing their grip. In Ferrari's perfect work, they would be the ones to set the rules and build their car, and they'd do it before anybody else got to see the rulebook. But you don't see other teams trying to force their will onto the entire grid, do you?
 
Whatever you say :) I guess we can only agree to disagree, because I stand firmly on my opinions and you seem to do the same with yours.
 
Damn straight I do. Ferrari have no redeeming qualities.
 
I just find it funny how you blow off/turn your head to all of Mclaren's (a team you happen to be a fan of) wrong doings of recent years, yet act as if Ferrari are guilty of each and every problem in the world and are the ONLY ones who should be blamed for doing wrong.

And personally, I can't blame Ferrari for wanting more leverage after all of the dumbing down the FIA have done to regulations in recent years. If we continue at this rate we will be watching a spec series in a few years, with no real exlclusivity or purpose to show off the true capabilities of your brand.
 
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I think this race will be really hard to predict. Did Button qualify on the harder tyre? Because if he did then I think he's got a really good chance of winnings today. It will be interesting to see if Alonso can just drive away from the front, but I think all of the top team's pace is too close for that. Will Hamilton's straight line speed advantage help him leap frog the other guys? Will Button's high downforce setup allow him to get better trraction off the line? I can imagine Vettel and Webber will be at damage limitation today as they never expected their pace to be brilliant here, but they're still in with a chance for a win.
 
Button qualified on the soft tyre.

My prediction for the race.

Button to get a great start because of his downforce forcing Alonso to jump the first chicane to stay in front and get a drive through penalty for it. But ONLY if we have a radio link to his response to getting that news!

Massa then to pass Button with better straight line speed to win.

Vettel to do what Vettel does best at the moment.

Sutil to come through and grab third place for force India.
 
^^ err where have you been the last 15 years?

15 years? More like 45 years!

1. Button
2. Hamilton
3. Kubica


I say Massa will overtake Alonso for the lead during a pit stop. Alonso will FUBAR his stop giving Massa the lead. Team orders will be ignored by Massa and Alonso will crash into him trying to overtake him on a risky move. Both will be done for the race.

Vettle and Webber, the same.
 
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