2010 Korean Grand Prix

Some of the carnage from Sundays race - I've never seen such digustingly dirty F1 cars:

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As usual, putting that Russian sponsorship money to good use :lol:

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The Outlaw
I agree he's a great driver. I just laugh when I see (usually on other forums) people rate him as the best driver on the grid when he has never really been paired up with any great talent nor has he won a WDC. Personally I feel the easy to drive nature and great performance of the R30 is one of the things that is making him look so good. Personally i feel (just my opinion) that if you put him in the Mclaren or even Ferrari (much more difficult cars to drive) I don't think he could touch Alonso or Hamilton (as I don't feel he has the finesse nor precision of those two - which is important in cars that can't be tossed around so much). That's why Renault need to get a quality driver in their seat for next year :indiff:
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How do you know which cars are easy to drive and which aren't ?
 
albteman015
How do you know which cars are easy to drive and which aren't ?
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You can get a general idea from watching onboard footage as well as understanding the general characteristics of the cars (mechanical efficieny, aero characteristics, engine tractability, etc). Also, in the past few years the Renault has had great mechanical efficiency, compliance, and precision with the front end (despite lacking DF in the past few years) - watching Alonso's onboard footage from this year in the F10 compared to 09 or 08 you see how relatively easy the Renault was to drive and place around the track in order to extract the maximum potential (and IMO the R30 has just gotten that much better with the dramatic improvement in DF). With the Ferrari he always seems to make more correction to get the car placed perfectly, although the car has gotten quite a bit better throughout the year, it still doesn't look anything near as easy to drive nor nearly as tossible as the R30 and the same can be said for the MP4-25.
 
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Seismica
After it had been red-flagged?

I thought alterations to the setup of the car were not allowed once the car was sat on the grid (Other than tyres, which is understandeable considering that conditions can change). I guess I was wrong. But it would explain how the Mercedes had the pace to challenge for a podium place. It could have even been a race win for Rosberg if he'd have got past Webber unscathed. That's something to think about...
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Ted Kravitz mentioned it in his after race report for the BBC, but i've found a written explanation by Martin Brundle:

Mercedes seemed to be the most proactive in changing their cars to a more wet set-up during the red-flag period after just three laps.
Once the race had officially started, the cars were out of parc ferme restrictions and changes were permitted. Michael Schumacher took advantage to drive an impressive and committed race into fourth place for the third time this season.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9125998.stm
 
Merc's pace in this race was a real revelation as to what proper set-up can do for you... In qualifying and practice, I seem to remember Schumi's arms flailing all over the place. I' m surprised no one else tried it... as running on qualifying set-up was a real disaster for some... McLaren in particular. Until Lewis managed to get the tires to work in the later half, they were in big trouble... A combination of McLaren's troubles and Mercedes's set-up gave Rosberg that overtake... but, of course, it required Rosberg to be competent enough to pull it off.

The Outlaw
With the Ferrari he always seems to make more correction to get the car placed perfectly, although the car has gotten quite a bit better throughout the year, it still doesn't look anything near as easy to drive nor nearly as tossible as the R30 and the same can be said for the MP4-25.
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I often wonder how unwieldy this year's car is compared to the twitch-monsters that Kimi and Massa were driving a while back.
 
Shaggy Alonso
Ted Kravitz mentioned it in his after race report for the BBC, but i've found a written explanation by Martin Brundle:
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So technically, the gap between the red flag and the restart was one huge great big, 49 minute or so, pit stop?
 
Hun200kmh
Same to Alonso, I really do admire him, most of all his persistence, the fact that he never lost faith when everyone said he was already out of the title race, after his silly and totally unjustified mistake at Spa (note to Alonso fans: very similar to what Webber did today).
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I don't think it was "similar" at all. Remember Fernando had damage from Rubens crashing into him earlier. His car was pulling to one side. And he was also way down in the pack. I think he was fighting for one or two points. So, according to him, he was pushing like hell, to get more points. Webber was second, with a healthy car, and all he had to was hold station.

Sure, any driver can make mistakes, but I just don't see Alonso binning it if he was driving Mark's car in that situation. Remember Alonso's drive in Malaysia. He had no engine braking. His gearbox would go into neutral when he downshifting, and yet he drove a decent race until his engine blew.

Alonso, Hamilton, and maybe Kubica, are in a league of their own skill wise.
 
BlueFG2
Remember Alonso's drive in Malaysia. He had no engine braking. His gearbox would go into neutral when he downshifting, and yet he drove a decent race until his engine blew.
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I am 90% sure I heard somewhere, be it on here or the BBC, that F1 cars don't utilise engine braking. They only downshift before the corner so that they are in the right gear for getting the most speed out of the corner.
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BlueFG2
I don't think it was "similar" at all. Remember Fernando had damage from Rubens crashing into him earlier. His car was pulling to one side. And he was also way down in the pack. I think he was fighting for one or two points. So, according to him, he was pushing like hell, to get more points. Webber was second, with a healthy car, and all he had to was hold station.

Sure, any driver can make mistakes, but I just don't see Alonso binning it if he was driving Mark's car in that situation. Remember Alonso's drive in Malaysia. He had no engine braking. His gearbox would go into neutral when he downshifting, and yet he drove a decent race until his engine blew.

Alonso, Hamilton, and maybe Kubica, are in a league of their own skill wise.
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Welcome to gtplanet :) I don't remember Malaysia's events, but you are right about Alonso having a crippled car at Spa. I stand corrected on that one! 👍
 
granturismite
to all those bagging Webber out because of his mistake, don't forget Alonso's mishap in Belgium. exactly the same situation. At least Mark didn't try to park his on the track to influence the race
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I'm sorry but what?! are you seriously trying to say Alonso decided to prang his car off the wall harder than necessary to launch himself into the path of others?

I know you all hate Alonso with a passion but some of the stuff that's been said is verging on out of line.
 
Tiddy
I'm sorry but what?! are you seriously trying to say Alonso decided to prang his car off the wall harder than necessary to launch himself into the path of others? .
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I'm not saying Alonso crashed on purpose, after all he was in a points position. It's just that his car ended up on the tarmac, when he should have had better control over the final resting position.

He knew it was in a dangourous position. Look at him scarper away after the car stops. Fundamentally, it was a dangerous position for Alonso's Ferrari to end up in.
 
granturismite
I'm not saying Alonso crashed on purpose, after all he was in a points position. It's just that his car ended up on the tarmac, when he should have had better control over the final resting position.

He knew it was in a dangourous position. Look at him scarper away after the car stops. Fundamentally, it was a dangerous position for Alonso's Ferrari to end up in.
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I'm sorry but what do you expect with a car that had only 3 working on his wagon? It may ended up on a tarmac but the car was OFF the racing line, and no one had an accident or hit his car there.

It's a procedure for a driver to leave the car immidiately after a crash, and at least he brake and stop there instead of Mark left his car rolling down the racing line and coming into the path of Nico Rosberg and initially took both of their races to the drain... He apologized to Nico afterwards so it should all be fine.

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granturismite
I'm not saying Alonso crashed on purpose, after all he was in a points position. It's just that his car ended up on the tarmac, when he should have had better control over the final resting position.

He knew it was in a dangourous position. Look at him scarper away after the car stops. Fundamentally, it was a dangerous position for Alonso's Ferrari to end up in.
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What are you on about? That's like saying Webber deliberately let his car crash in to Rosberg, It's just ridiculous.
 
Anyone else find the camera angle shown on tv at the last corner scary? every time they would show someone going in the corner it looked like they where going straight in to the wall.
 
:lol: Anything's possible - and I'm sure Berger has a better idea of the mindset (and what they'll risk) of a F1 driver than any of us onlookers. When you're as close as Webber to becoming a Formula 1 WDC (after all his years in F1) you can become a pretty desperate man...
 
He couldn't have seen what was coming his way, he would have been right on the racing line if his car had stopped near the wall that he hit. It was an accident with no malicious intent on any other driver.
 
To be honest it is believable. At that speed all Webber had to do was feather the brake and it'd have stopped the car fully.
 
The Outlaw
:lol: Anything's possible - and I'm sure Berger has a better idea of the mindset of F1 driver than any of us onlookers. When you're as close as Webber to becoming a Formula WDC (after all his years in F1) you can become a pretty desperate man...
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He'd better have more than just 'driver's intuition' as back-up for these outrageous claims, otherwise he'd either get a very convincing apology ready, or seek the services of a good lawyer. These kinds of comments are downright slanderous.
 
It is Berger's opinion of what happened, surely he's entitled to that.
 
Famine
They're damned erratic drivers - Webber in particular has been plagued by a regular willingness to drive into someone else (and there are people claiming he deliberately allowed his car to scythe across the track today in the hope of taking Hamilton out - I don't agree with them, but I can see how they reached this conclusion).
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Typical of Gerhard to be so slow off the mark.
 
Alex.
It is Berger's opinion of what happened, surely he's entitled to that.
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He is entitled to his opinion, but by stating that opinion on the record, he'd better be able to back it up or he will face the consequences.
 
weigert
He couldn't have seen what was coming his way, he would have been right on the racing line if his car had stopped near the wall that he hit. It was an accident with no malicious intent on any other driver.
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"Couldn't have seen what was coming his way"? As soon as he hit the wall he was looking right toward Rosberg and did absolutely nothing to try and avoid rolling back onto the racing line Now I'm not one claiming for a fact that he intentionally tried to take out one of the contenders, but nor am I one naive enough to write off this possibility either. Everyone acts as if all the drivers except for Alonso & Schumacher (maybe a few others) are some type of saints who would never dream of doing such a thing :lol: Webber has always been a boarderline overly aggressive/unfair driver at times so I can't say it would be some big surprise if he did have bad intentions out of dire instinct (especially considering what is on the line for him).

Touring Mars
He is entitled to his opinion, but by stating that opinion on the record, he'd better be able to back it up or he will face the consequences.
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It's freedom of speech - I doubt he has any real consequence to face otherwise he wouldn't have said it. It's not like he's trying to make a comeback into F1 or is trying to be best friends with RB or Mark Webber in particular.
 
Touring Mars
Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. You simply cannot accuse someone like this and get away with it if he turns out to be completely wrong. It's called defamation.
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Well, according to the definition of the word "defamation", the accusations (which were his opinion) must be able to be proven as false in order to prosecute in the court of law - which in this case there is no way to prove the validity of such, unless Webber did in fact try to hit the brakes to prevent from rolling back (with data to prove so), and to prevent the immanent collision.

Personally I feel Gerhard's words are simply being blown out of proportion. Maybe RB and Mark will respond with a direct response to Gerhards accusations in the press, but other than that, I seriously doubt any legal action will be taken (or any other action would be taken that would really be of much "consequence" to Gerhard).
 
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If he would have stopped directly then, he would of been in the middle of the track, I can see his logic in letting it run across the track(to continue with the race) and he probably cannot see rosberg from his viewpoint.

But as he had said when he spoke to the press he though he had cuaght the slide before the impact.
 
I personally feel Webber perhaps failed basic racecraft - when in a slow spin you apply the brakes to make your movement more predictable.
I don't think he steered (or rather didn't steer) on purpose to move back onto the track - that again is a basic driving technique to avoid damaging your hands/wrists/arms by not holding onto the steering wheel during impacts. However, he could have applied the brakes fully at least during the initial impacts and after it.

I'm willing to give Webber the benefit of the doubt though, the impact or spin may have been so surprising he simply forgot or was in shock that he only realised he should hit the brakes when he was already going back across the track. In which case he was possibly correct to not apply the brakes and stop on the racing line. He may not have expected the car to turn like that too, as he couldn't see all the suspension damage from where he sits.

Even so though, stopping in the middle of the track is more predictable to the immediate driver behind but not so much for the rest of the pack. I think Rosberg was also partly to blame as he also failed basic racecraft rules by not aiming for where Webber was, instead he tried to go around Webber when he was still moving. But again, its easy to make this mistake and it happens all the time in other racing. Particularly with the time scales involved here.

50/50 I guess, it depends on what Webber was thinking, which we will never know. If he was letting the accident unfold and then deciding whether to hit the brakes or not, he was at fault (he should have hit the brakes and stuck to the right hand side of the track). If he was in shock briefly and couldn't/didn't react in time that braking would help then he wasn't at fault. I don't think he chose to delibrately ram Rosberg or whoever came up behind...it wouldn't surprise me but I don't think Webber is that crazy. He runs the risk of the car hitting him directly in the side and launching over his head but then again, people don't think things through like that in high-adrenaline situations. And when a championship is at stake, some people are willing to risk quite a lot.
 
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