2011 Formula 1 Grand Prix of Europe

Barra333
Using results at http://www.chicanef1.com and some names off the top of my head:

Senna - 41 wins, 29 from pole (70.7%)
Prost - 51 wins, 18 from pole (35.3%)
Lauda - 25 wins, 9 from pole (36%)
Mansell - 31 wins, 17 from pole (54.8%)

Senna is the highest by far, is anyone going to call him an average driver? Stats can show you anything you want.
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Not so sure Senna's stats were achieved in a car that has demonstrated the superiority SV accesses in the form of the RBR. Also Senna had Prost as a team mate, and I don't think I am stretching it by saying Webber is not of Prost's ability.
 
Mike Rotch
Not so sure Senna's stats were achieved in a car that has demonstrated the superiority SV accesses in the form of the RBR. Also Senna had Prost as a team mate, and I don't think I am stretching it by saying Webber is not of Prost's ability.
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Webber is no Prost.
 
Mike Rotch
Not so sure Senna's stats were achieved in a car that has demonstrated the superiority SV accesses in the form of the RBR. Also Senna had Prost as a team mate, and I don't think I am stretching it by saying Webber is not of Prost's ability.
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That may be so, but Senna only drove with Prost for 88/89. He was with Berger 90-92, then Michael Andretti/Mika Hakkinen in 93. Not trying to start an argument, just putting the facts out there. That website is awesome, hours of wasted time to be had...
 
Ardius
Debatable, very debatable. I don't see what magic barrier Vettel hasn't crossed yet that prevents him from being considered as good as those two if not better.
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You will not hear me saying Vettel is not a good, now bordering on fantastic, driver. He has also obviously improved much as a driver only from last year. The thing is he has never quite had to prove himself, at least not in the past two years, in a battle situation. I have stated before, and I do it once more, that I will not consider him great until I see him race his way up through a field of reasonably competitive cars to take a win. Let's say from fifth place with the elite in front of him (Hamilton, Alonso, Webber and Button) The truth is though that I simply do not see him doing that, he is spectacularly good at hotlapping but just average (by F1 standards) when it comes to real racing.
 
I'd agree with that.

Look at Webber's performance in China; would anyone dare call him average or ordinary after such a fantastic performance? If you did you're either hating, or just a blind fool. Until I see Vettel do that and claim the win he's nothing more than an extremely skillful speedster/hot lapper.
 
Barra333
That may be so, but Senna only drove with Prost for 88/89. He was with Berger 90-92, then Michael Andretti/Mika Hakkinen in 93. Not trying to start an argument, just putting the facts out there. That website is awesome, hours of wasted time to be had...
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Hey, it may only be two years with Prost, but he won the title in one right ;)


Anghammarad
You will not hear me saying Vettel is not a good, now bordering on fantastic, driver. He has also obviously improved much as a driver only from last year. The thing is he has never quite had to prove himself, at least not in the past two years, in a battle situation. I have stated before, and I do it once more, that I will not consider him great until I see him race his way up through a field of reasonably competitive cars to take a win. Let's say from fifth place with the elite in front of him (Hamilton, Alonso, Webber and Button) The truth is though that I simply do not see him doing that, he is spectacularly good at hotlapping but just average (by F1 standards) when it comes to real racing.
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For those less articulate among us (me :D), this is the point I was trying to get at a few posts above 👍
 
How many wins does Webber have? 6, and how many championships does he have? 0.

Webber is a very good driver. But, nowhere near the level of Prost, Clark, Fangio, Stewart, Lauda, or Piquet. You would have to be high to even think so.

I think it is a little premature to try and compare Vettel to the greats at this point, we will see what kind of a driver he is in the coming years.
 
IceMan PJN
I've heard this point brought up before and it's a valid one.

Vettel's wins:
2008, race 14, Monza - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 3, Shanghai - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 8, Silverstone - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 15, Suzuka - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 17, Yas Marina - started 2nd, finished 1st
2010, race 3, Sepang - started 3rd, finished 1st
2010, race 9, Valencia - started 1st, finished 1st
2010, race 16, Suzuka - started 1st, finished 1st
2010, race 18, Autódromo José Carlos Pace - started 2nd, finished 1st
2010, race 19, Yas Marina - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 1, Melbourne - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 2, Sepang - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 4, Istanbul Park - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 5, Catalunya - started 2nd, finished 1st
2011, race 6, Monaco - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 8, Valencia - started 1st, finished 1st

I was actually surprised to see that he did, in fact, win a handful from a position other than pole; four, in fact. Still, even the victories that weren't from pole were from pretty close, but twelve out of his sixteen F1 wins, or 75%, have been from pole. I haven't gotten around to comparing this to other drivers of recent years to see whether they have won more times from positions other than the pole or not, so I can't honestly say at the moment whether having 75% of your wins from pole is high or fairly normal.

EDIT:
Alright, just for fairness, I compared versus my driver, Lewis Hamilton. When looking at just his official F1 wins (not counting the 2008 win at Spa that was wrongfully stolen from him by the stewards for violating a rule they never clarified until after the race), six of his fifteen wins have been from a position other than pole, although they've been within the top four grid spots. 60% of Hamilton's wins have been from pole, and 40% have been from a position other than pole. These shift slightly if you count the 2008 Spa win, which was also from pole, although it was also after losing the lead early on and having to fight Kimi tooth-and-nail for it for the rest of the race, culminating in an exciting race finish, which is very different from starting on pole and just having the lead for the entire race. Most of the wins he did have from pole were his earlier wins, while the majority of his more recent wins have been from slightly lower starting positions.
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Those stats actually make his overtaking to win to better than it is because...

2009, race 17, Yas Marina - started 2nd, finished 1st - Pole Position was Hamilton whose car broke (engine I believe). Vettel then inherited the lead and won.

2010, race 3, Sepang - started 3rd, finished 1st - Was leading by the first corner on lap 1

2010, race 18, Autódromo José Carlos Pace - started 2nd, finished 1st - Hulkenberg took pole in a car that did much better in the wet (although a wet setup was denied I believe).. anyway Vettel was passed by the first corner and another dozen or so drivers passed him soon after

2011, race 5, Catalunya - started 2nd, finished 1st - His first win where he wasn't leading from the 1st corner. He followed Alonso around till pitt stratergy had him pass Alonso through the pits. He then passed some much slower cars (4 or so within a lap) and won from there.


Only 1 where he didn't lead from the first corner says it all
 
Cauchy
How many wins does Webber have? 6, and how many championships does he have? 0.

Webber is a very good driver. But, nowhere near the level of Prost, Clark, Fangio, Stewart, Lauda, or Piquet. You would have to be high to even think so.

I think it is a little premature to try and compare Vettel to the greats at this point, we will see what kind of a driver he is in the coming years.
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Barrichello doesn't have a WDC to his name either, does that mean he needs to be compared to other (past) drivers just the spits and giggles? Absolutely not; if I wanted to see someone like Alain go around a track, then I'd watch Alain drive. If I wanted to see someone like Jackie go around a track, then I'd watch Jackie. See what I'm driving toward here?
 
Those stats were really interesting. I checked stats for winning when not starting on the front row as well.

Vettel: 6,25%. 1 out of 16
Webber: 0%. He has started in the first row in all of his 6 wins
Hamilton: 26,6%. 4 out of 15
Button: 50%. 5 out of 10
Alonso: 34,6%. 9 out of 26
Schumacher: 26,4%. 24 out of 91
Räikkönen: 44,4%. 8 out of 18
 
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Anghammarad
You will not hear me saying Vettel is not a good, now bordering on fantastic, driver. He has also obviously improved much as a driver only from last year. The thing is he has never quite had to prove himself, at least not in the past two years, in a battle situation. I have stated before, and I do it once more, that I will not consider him great until I see him race his way up through a field of reasonably competitive cars to take a win. Let's say from fifth place with the elite in front of him (Hamilton, Alonso, Webber and Button) The truth is though that I simply do not see him doing that, he is spectacularly good at hotlapping but just average (by F1 standards) when it comes to real racing.
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He hasn't? Ok, so we have stats saying he is mainly only won races from the front row but we have seen plenty of "battling" from him this season. I don't really see why he has to win races from further back on the grid - one could make the argument that Alonso and Hamilton had much better chances of winning from lower grid positions because they had great cars in seasons where refuelling strategies played a part.
The same could be argued the opposite way, that with no refuelling Vettel has more chances to win from lower positions because the current tyres+DRS make qualifying less crucial.

Honestly, there are just too many variables to make a reliable analysis of who is better, how much is skill and how much is car and the benefits of their respective periods of racing.

Senna raced in a period when drivers could reach the podium simply with superior reliability (speed obviously is necessary too, but the point was the high attrition rate then and much wider gaps between the cars means its difficult to directly compare it to now).

I don't know how dominant I'd say the RB7 is. But I think considering Webber's performances, I don't think its as dominant as a lot of people are saying. Every year people like to paint the winning car as super dominant in order to inflate their favourite driver's ability. People love to do it with Schumacher's 1994, 1995 and 1996 seasons.
While I think Webber is struggling Fisichella style, and he is under-performing the car, I don't think Vettel enjoys that big an advantage either..its probably somehwere in between.

I also think stats about starting from lower positions can be misleading when obviously its easy to win from a lower position when you have the fastest car. We have yet to see Vettel start from a lower position with the fastest car, I don't really have any doubts that he could win from such scenarios though.
Unless people are going to try and argue Hamilton and Alonso have won many races with drastically inferior cars - which is not the case. There are very few and unique races that allow truly terrible cars to win, simply put, you cannot win the race in a slower car, it doesn't matter how good the driver is. Although you can win a slightly slower car or maybe a midfield car with the right conditions.

Honestly, its such a mess of opinion, facts and bias that I personally just like to stick to the basics - can he win or has he won the WDC, has he beaten his teammates, and does he show a good range of skills in different scenarios. For me Vettel ticks all the boxes for "great driver". I don't see why people feel the need to come up with arbitrary reasons for a driver to be great like having to win from anything but the front row of the grid. If he never needs to win from the front row, surely it proves he is much more reliable qualifier too?
 
We may finally agree on something Ardius. It irks me when people attribute too much/too little talent to drivers who dont/do deserve it.
 
Valencia is always boring. Webber should have finished 2nd but that was the only intresting part of the race and other guys fighting for the final points. Hamilton got 4th because of poor stop for Felipe in the pits. Hopefully Mclaren and Mercedes can improve their pace in next race.
 
kimi123
Valencia is always boring. Webber should have finished 2nd but that was the only intresting part of the race and other guys fighting for the final points. Hamilton got 4th because of poor stop for Felipe in the pits. Hopefully Mclaren and Mercedes can improve their pace in next race.
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Indeed. Being 45+ seconds behind first is not reassuring. Ferrari has to be pleased about their improved pace though they never realistically were going to challenge Vettel. Neither team should be counting on the blown diffuser ban to somehow rein in Vettel and RBR.
 
I guess that my statement:

So,I misted and it wasn't good,well I'm glad of not wasting my time,however I was sort of expecting this,specially for being Valencia,one of the dullest tracks of the season,what pains me is seeing Vettel winning again,expectable race,expectable results.

Created a big discussion around here,well my points is that it pains me seeing Vettel wining again,because its a reminder of the superior pace that the RB has over its competitor on dry tracks and perfect stable conditions,its also a reminder of the lack of entertainment value that Valencia provides and its a reminder of why I hate 2002-2005 seasons.

I also said that Vettel wining is wrong,but because I don't consider Vettel as the best driver currently racing on F1,its a silly statement,specially considering Webber's pace,Hamilton's pace,Alonso's pace and even Button's pace,my point is that the races become less appealing when you known that the person who makes pole is the person who wins the race(which is the main reason of why I hate Valencia),having seen the Qualification and seeing Vettel getting pole position,then know that he won is not a graceful feeling.

Which takes me to the next point,I don't base my personal driver performance opinion on statistics or numbers,they are too ambiguous to take seriously(consider for example Monaco,Button probably won that race,however external events resulted in him coming third and Vettel wining,that demonstrates that statistics are not good determinate driver's performance),I also consider other events(Webber most of all,he have suffered only bad luck and unfortunate events,pitlane screwups,car breakdown,etc...)as part of my considerations,seeing the actual driver performance is what gets to me,seeing Vettel lost it against Button makes me think that F1 could be way more interesting with challenging tracks and not that stupid thing called Valencia.
 
I watched the race last night and was prepared for it to be boring, but actually I think people are only labelling it as boring compared to the races of this year. Yes it would be ideal if all the races were like them, but we are a way off that yet. A lot of people concentrating on the battle for the win that never happened, Vettel was able to control it superbly. The race for second went on for most of the race and included on track battling rather than just all in the pitlane. More strategies being played out in the midfield, and then all of the action happening for non-points scoring positions. Maybe we are used to DRS zones allowing cars to breeze past another without much thought for having to create a good overtaking manouevre?
 
Webber 3rd, an uninspiring result and driving performance, not what he needs to do to secure any sort of meaningful future in F1. Webbers days are numbered at Red Bull unless he can win at least a handful of races from now to the end of the season.
 
MarkWebber
Webber 3rd, an uninspiring result and driving performance, not what he needs to do to secure any sort of meaningful future in F1. Webbers days are numbered at Red Bull unless he can win at least a handful of races from now to the end of the season.
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How are his days numbered?

He is doing a great job, Redbull have KERS issues which makes him under perform.

Will RBR go with then?

If human cloning technology existed RBR will clone another Vettle.
 
Moot
I don't see that on the website.
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From the "Vettel wins from Alonso in Valencia" summary.
In another of those no longer so rare races in which nobody retired, Williams' Rubens Barrichello headed home Sebastien Buemi in the other Toro Rosso, Paul di Resta's Force India, Vitaly Petrov's Renault (in which he had made a terrible start and immediately lost places), Kamui Kobayashi's two-stopping Sauber, a delayed Michael Schumacher who had the front wing of his Mercedes damaged by Petrov as he rejoined after his first pit stop, and Pastor Maldonado's Williams.
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This was countered by Schumacher in the selected team & driver quotes though.


Also found this story, which lets us know that the media knows it was a bore fest.
http://www.motorsport.com/#/f1/news/media-slams-vettel-s-f1-snooze-control-in-valencia/?v=3&f=1&s=1&i=2

Given the time that most of the races are on and my work schedule, from now on I'm going to record the race and only watch it the next day if I read that vettel didn't win, Saving precious hours of my life.
Last year I hated on Alonso because the cheating that took place and thus Abu Dhabi was awesome, but this year I'm all for him, or anyone who can put vettel in 2nd or lower.
 
Grayfox
How are his days numbered?

He is doing a great job, Redbull have KERS issues which makes him under perform.
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Vettel is having the same problem with the Red Bull too....

Grayfox
Will RBR go with then?
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If the (intense) rumours are anything to go by, Lewis Hamilton. Failing him then I am sure a number of other top rate drivers won't mind joining the fastest team on the grid.

Grayfox
If human cloning technology existed RBR will clone another Vettle.
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Who wouldn't given his current form!
 
Well Vettle has more luck but with Webber seems to have more issues.

RBR will lose money if Lewis joins with constand repairs, as he will crash every race.

Imagine 2 Vettles fighting for 1st, both know each others tatics
 
Exactly what has Vettel to prove though? He became an F1 world champion aged 22, and came 2nd aged 21. Exactly what has Vettel left to prove? In my eyes he is the new ultimate F1 driver of this generation.

And what about Webber? He is standing 3rd in the driver standings, he hasn't got to do anything better. As of right now he is contributing to RBR's dominance in both championship standings.

I fail to see what we can expect more from either drivers...
 
Webber may be 3rd in the drivers standings, but thats a 3rd which is almost 100 points away from 1st. Webber has not just been beaten by Vettel, he has been far too slow or inconsistent to really help the team score points. He needs to be right alongside Vettel on the front row at most races and fend off McLaren, Ferrari and even Mercedes and Renault in the races and make it easier for Vettel.

I think Red Bull will definitely be feeling they could have a better, more consistent driver in that seat right now and they would be much better off in the constructors for it. They also need a driver good enough to fill the gap when Vettel inevitably doesn't finish a race through mechanical or other failures - so if Vettel doesn't win, Webber needs to win instead. This is currently what McLaren have.

Valencia is the exact kind of race Red Bull want from their drivers - one driver so good no one catches him and the other good enough that he fights with the competition and slows them down. Its no use having two cars if one is going struggle around 5th-7th place every race.

Webber is good enough to be what Red Bull wish, its just this season he has somehow lost his form from previous years. Webber's ace was being so consistently fast compared to his teammates over the season but in 2011 he's really struggled. Perhaps its the Pirellis.

Webber isn't quite as bad as Kovalainen or Fisichella but its going that way.
 
Grayfox
How are his days numbered?

He is doing a great job, Redbull have KERS issues which makes him under perform.

Will RBR go with then?

If human cloning technology existed RBR will clone another Vettle.
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How would anyone else perform if teamed with the 'kid' at Red Bull?

I think Webber is doing a good job 👍

Has KERS worked for Webber at any race so far this year!

Webber may also be a little harder on tires (as I am in F1 2010 game:dopey:) than Vettel.

Mark may still win a few races this season; still have a good number of races to go; including a new track in India
 
Without a doubt this is Webber's worst season of F1. he is being obliterated by his team mate. With power comes great responsibility, and the responsible thing for Red Bull to do, after they win both championships this year (likely), is to increase the teams potential energy in preperation for next season and cut off the weak, underperforming links. Webber is on of these weak links in Red Bull right now.
 
Ardius
Webber may be 3rd in the drivers standings, but thats a 3rd which is almost 100 points away from 1st. Webber has not just been beaten by Vettel, he has been far too slow or inconsistent to really help the team score points. He needs to be right alongside Vettel on the front row at most races and fend off McLaren, Ferrari and even Mercedes and Renault in the races and make it easier for Vettel.

I think Red Bull will definitely be feeling they could have a better, more consistent driver in that seat right now and they would be much better off in the constructors for it. They also need a driver good enough to fill the gap when Vettel inevitably doesn't finish a race through mechanical or other failures - so if Vettel doesn't win, Webber needs to win instead. This is currently what McLaren have.

Valencia is the exact kind of race Red Bull want from their drivers - one driver so good no one catches him and the other good enough that he fights with the competition and slows them down. Its no use having two cars if one is going struggle around 5th-7th place every race.

Webber is good enough to be what Red Bull wish, its just this season he has somehow lost his form from previous years. Webber's ace was being so consistently fast compared to his teammates over the season but in 2011 he's really struggled. Perhaps its the Pirellis.

Webber isn't quite as bad as Kovalainen or Fisichella but its going that way.
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Pretty hard role to find really because ideally you don't want this second driver to be too fast otherwise you're team will just split points up between the two drivers (think Mclaren 2007) but you need someone who's sufficiently fast to be up the pointy end...

Jenson Button, Nico Rosberg, Mark Webber and maybe Massa are probably the best ones for that sort of role I guess.
 

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