2011 Formula 1 Grand Prix of Europe

[MercilessOne]

I started watching around '97. Unfortunately, it was also one of his worst years, only because of the whole ordeal with colliding with Villeneuve and getting disqualified from the championship. 1998 and 1999 were exciting years. Hakkinen was the man.

I must admit, that as big Ferrari supporter and Schumacher fan, and despite the pleasure of watching them win year after year, the 2002/2004 seasons were a snoozefest. After Spa that year I yelled out "That's all folks!"





A real shame for Schumi this race. A few unfortunate incidents coupled with a track that barely allows any overtaking opportunities brought him back and ruined his day. Why don't we get San Marino back in the calendar?

 

[Grand Prix]

Someone remind me why they race here again?

 

[Danny]

No retirements, no safety car, no penalties, no non-qualifiers.

The battle for 13th towards the end was pretty neat. And a good job from Alguesuari. Should help his case for keeping a racing drive.

 

[Moot]

Someone remind me why they race here again?

Money.

 

[paskowitz]

Vettel will obviously win the title, but I think Ferrari will actually catch up to Mclaren and take second in the constructors for a surprise win.

 

[Grand Prix]

Money.

Makes sense.

 

[Sam48]

Vettel will obviously win the title, but I think Ferrari will actually catch up to Mclaren and take second in the constructors for a surprise win.

Isn't it sad when you can already pretty much predict the outcome of an entire championship before the season's even half finished?

2008 is still my favorite modern F1 season by far.

 

[ALP1986]

F1 is rather sad at the moment. Hate to see it dominated by someone who clearly isn't the best out there.

 

[stig's helmet]

I miss the old Schumi...though overtaking with a broken wing was pretty neat

Vettel is doing my nut in, every race is the same for the lead, it's ridiculous...give him a proper manual

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Least interesting race of the season so far; can't figure out why I bothered to get up at 4:30 a.m.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

I miss the old Schumi...though overtaking with a broken wing was pretty neat

Vettel is doing my nut in, every race is the same for the lead, it's ridiculous...give him a proper manual

Every race it's the same. Look slow in practice, look the same as the others in Q1 and Q2, Q3 pull out a rediculously fast lap for pole. In the race lead from the front, stay in front, win, shout 'thankyou guys, brilliant race, best yet, YESS!!!!!' then jump out of the car with a one finger salute. Then on the podium wave to someone about 10 seconds into the Austrian national anthem. Every race exactly the same.

I hate McLaren but even I was cheering Button on in Canada.

 

[lukecfc]

Least interesting race of the season so far; can't figure out why I bothered to get up at 4:30 a.m.

Tell me about it I often have to stay up till 3am to watch the races, and have never fallen asleep during a race. Honestly, and I hate to say it, NASCAR might have been more interesting. I think I might be done with F1 for a while.

F1 is rather sad at the moment. Hate to see it dominated by someone who clearly isn't the best out there.

I'm afraid Vettel is clearly the best out there.

 

[Ardius]

Least interesting race of the season so far; can't figure out why I bothered to get up at 4:30 a.m.

Tell me about it I often have to stay up till 3am to watch the races, and have never fallen asleep during a race. Honestly, and I hate to say it, NASCAR might have been more interesting. I think I might be done with F1 for a while.

Easy in, easy out, cyas!

Why did you tune in for this race? Because all previous races this year have been great!
Done with F1 for a while? What on earth? So one boring race means you give up?

Deary me, if you guys had witnessed 2002-2004, you probably would have declared F1 a dead sport and never returned!

Loving the "oh noes, F1 is lame now, only one winner". Free tip - learn to watch for more than a race winner and a championship. This season has been one of the best ever, even if it has been a dominant performance from Vettel - so what? Its not like he was won every race by miles and lapped everyone. Alonso and Webber were genuinely close to catching Vettel today, ok so its been consistent gaps for Vettel every race but he has won on merit, not romped off to lap the field and had his teammate move over for him.
Just because the end result has been generally the same all year doesn't mean this is a terrible season. Some of you really need to think why you watch F1 if you only care about a results table.

 

[ALP1986]

I'm afraid Vettel is clearly the best out there.

only to those who think stats make a driver great. Both Alonso and Hamilton are clearly better drivers than Vettel (ask anyone in F1 lol).

But seriously Alonso was amazing today, took a car that was at least a half second a lap slower than the Red Bulls and still managed to split them while beating his teammate by over 40 seconds.

 

[Ardius]

only to those who think stats make a driver great. Both Alonso and Hamilton are clearly better drivers than Vettel (ask anyone in F1 lol).

Debatable, very debatable. I don't see what magic barrier Vettel hasn't crossed yet that prevents him from being considered as good as those two if not better.
And everytime I bring this up, no one puts forth a good reason why they think Vettel isn't that good. Now he might be a double WDC and people will still say it, its ridiculous. People seem to have had their eyes truly blinded by Hamilton and Alonso-mania.

 

[crooky369]

Debatable, very debatable. I don't see what magic barrier Vettel hasn't crossed yet that prevents him from being considered as good as those two if not better.
And everytime I bring this up, no one puts forth a good reason why they think Vettel isn't that good. Now he might be a double WDC and people will still say it, its ridiculous. People seem to have had their eyes truly blinded by Hamilton and Alonso-mania.

It's true we might be looking at these races right now only to realise in 2-3 years time that it was him making the difference not the car...

Hope not though!

 

[Ardius]

I would have thought Webber is proof enough that he is making a difference..and Bourdais.
Alonso won his titles with Fisichella to compare to....

Of course the car always makes the difference. But I don't understand why people still refuse to give Vettel the same kind of status as Hamilton and Alonso now...he has very little left to prove!

 

[Cauchy]

I think the reason people are saying Vettel is not as good is how he wins. He hasn't had spectacular wins where he had to pass people. Instead he has set the poles and simply kept a cool head and dominated the race. It was like this when Prost used to win, people didn't give him the credit he deserved.

 

[DwightSchrute12]

Free tip - learn to watch for more than a race winner and a championship.

I know there has been great overtaking/fighting for position in the middle/back, but I just can't enjoy that over the course of a season. "Alright, here we have Sutil all over Buemi for 11th, they're neck and neck, it's great driving!" Okay, yeah, it is, but in the end, it's for 11th. It's cool for a little bit, but then the enthusiasm deflates. In other sports, unless you're a fan of a certain team, you don't watch the consolation games for the best entertainment. You want to see people fighting for a trophy. There's obviously good things in other areas of the race, but they just can't stand on their own for very long.

Say what you will about last year, but I was much more excited in the long run because of the championship coming down to the last lap of the season. This year, there is no long run excitement, most of it is just little spurts of "oh wow" when a midfielder makes a pass for 8th, with the occasional bout in the top 5.

 

[F1 fan]

I can only imagine how some of you guys were in the days of Schumacher dominating.

Being a Schumacher fan since his F1 debut, I was happy.

Let me just write this out as clearly as I can for you:

There is no need for that tone. You don't have to talk to me like I'm a five year old.

For some people, the degree of competition against the winner is completely irrelevant to their dislike of said winner.

Does that make sense? I know what you're getting at, which is arguable, but irrelevant to my point. Some people just don't like a certain individual/team, and if they keep winning, whether against good competition or not, in a thrilling spectacle or not, at the end of the day, they still don't like him/them. The Lakers/Yankees are good examples of this. Some people hate them, and it doesn't matter how dominant they were/are, or how well-deserved their victories, they just can't stand them.

Well not everyone is unhappy with their favourite sport because they don't like who's winning. I'm a Vettel fan, but I didn't spit the dummy out after China or Canada. I may have got involved in some arguements on the forum after Monaco and Canada, but that was mostly due to me questioning Lewis Hamilton's behaviour. God forbid anyone should ever criticize him. Personally, I despise him as a human being, but he's a great racing driver.

I'm of a different view then Dwight; and yes.

The technology that RBR have competed against this season has been mediocre at best. Ferrari have been nowhere until the last month (too late obviously) and McLaren have been yo-yoing in terms of pace.

So in terms of Vettel having true competition this season, he hasnt had any to speak of and thus his demolition of the title race makes it about as impressive as Buttons title year i.e. not very.

Interesting, you're so positive that the RB7 is leaps and bounds above everyone else, but you don't take into consideration the bigger gap between Vettel and Webber this season. Are you totally closed off to the possibility that maybe Vettel's just performing on a whole other level this season? He has the added confidence boost that comes with being World Champion.

More to the point, before today, Mclaren were looking as strong as, or even stronger that Red Bull in terms of Race pace, which is far more important than grid position under the current regulations. A lack of serious competition for Vettel is the fault of everyone else for fumbling. You can't blame him for running away with it.

Just to be clear, I wasn't posting my exact feelings on the matter, just playing devil's advocate with F1 fan, who seems to want everyone to applaud and respect Seb's wins, which just isn't going to happen. If I have that wrong, he can explain himself.

I don't expect everyone to applaud it, I just find it annoying that people have started "hating" Vettel because he's winning. It's pretty petty if you ask me. And at every race this season (barring today's snorefest), there's been plenty of action to satisfy racing fans. It seems some people would be happy with a parade of a race as long as there's a fight for the lead. There's action up and down the field.

I'm not saying you should like Vettel for this, but maybe people should stop blaming him and start pointing their fingers at the people who dropped the ball.

Overtaking is great in the midfield, but personally, I want a championship that comes down to the last race, not one that's over a few months early (or arguably, even now).

While I would prefer more of a fight for the championship, there would be far fewer complaints if it was Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso in the same position.

Why don't we get San Marino back in the calendar?

There are a number of tracks that would be better than Valencia.

Every race it's the same. Look slow in practice, look the same as the others in Q1 and Q2, Q3 pull out a rediculously fast lap for pole. In the race lead from the front, stay in front, win, shout 'thankyou guys, brilliant race, best yet, YESS!!!!!' then jump out of the car with a one finger salute. Then on the podium wave to someone about 10 seconds into the Austrian national anthem. Every race exactly the same

The funny thing about this is that the press fall for it at every race weekend. After practice, there'll be a headline along the lines of "Red Bull struggling" "McLaren looking strong" "Ferrari looking to take the fight to Red Bull" etc.

They fall for it every weekend.

EDIT:

And everytime I bring this up, no one puts forth a good reason why they think Vettel isn't that good. Now he might be a double WDC and people will still say it, its ridiculous. People seem to have had their eyes truly blinded by Hamilton and Alonso-mania.

Well said. I'm getting sick of looking like the bad guy around here for sticking up for Vettel. Funny how people who haven't achieved 0.1% of what he's achieved are so quick to judge his talent for reasons without substantial evidence.

I think the reason people are saying Vettel is not as good is how he wins. He hasn't had spectacular wins where he had to pass people. Instead he has set the poles and simply kept a cool head and dominated the race. It was like this when Prost used to win, people didn't give him the credit he deserved.

Jim Clark preferred to start from pole and lead the whole race. Jim Clark was also quite patchy in wheel to wheel combat. Look at the tragedy at Monza, when Baron Wolfgang Von Trips was killed along with 9 (iirc) spectators. And yet people like Jackie Stewart still refer to Jim as one of, if not the best.

 

[crooky369]

Interesting, you're so positive that the RB7 is leaps and bounds above everyone else, but you don't take into consideration the bigger gap between Vettel and Webber this season. Are you totally closed off to the possibility that maybe Vettel's just performing on a whole other level this season? He has the added confidence boost that comes with being World Champion.

Well remember Webber probably has the opposite considering he is an ordinary driver who had a great chance to win a championship and blew it.

 

[Grand Prix]

Easy in, easy out, cyas!

Why did you tune in for this race? Because all previous races this year have been great!
Done with F1 for a while? What on earth? So one boring race means you give up?

Deary me, if you guys had witnessed 2002-2004, you probably would have declared F1 a dead sport and never returned!

Many fans did leave the sport in 2002. I was very close to stop watching it myself, and it was my 2nd season of watching the sport. Austria 2002 didn't do the sport any favours back then.

I did mention in the Canadian GP thread about the horrible timing of this race. From the exciting end of F1's spectrum to the most boring end in a couple weeks. It's like tempting people with a taste of steak and then giving them a bowl of rice. Bahrain was horribly scheduled also. I seem to recall "Earth" based his entire opinion of F1 based on a single viewing of Bahrain and never returned. Now just imagine how many other potential North American fans came to the same conclusions. A re-scheduling of the season is needed to keep more fans IMO. Getting new fans is easy, but keeping them is the hard and most important part.

 

[DwightSchrute12]

Well not everyone is unhappy with their favourite sport because they don't like who's winning. I'm a Vettel fan, but I didn't spit the dummy out after China or Canada. I may have got involved in some arguements on the forum after Monaco and Canada, but that was mostly due to me questioning Lewis Hamilton's behaviour. God forbid anyone should ever criticize him. Personally, I despise him as a human being, but he's a great racing driver.

I know you're a Vettel fan, which is why I don't think you really understand the other side of the fence. It's hard to understand why people don't respect your favorite driver for winning when you love them so much. You say you despise Lewis, but respect him. The thing is, some people don't respect them, they just despise them.

Interesting, you're so positive that the RB7 is leaps and bounds above everyone else, but you don't take into consideration the bigger gap between Vettel and Webber this season. Are you totally closed off to the possibility that maybe Vettel's just performing on a whole other level this season? He has the added confidence boost that comes with being World Champion.

I don't particularly want to get into this "how good is Seb v. Mark" debate, but IMO, I think it's about a 70/30 split between Seb outperforming Mark and Mark simply underperforming. He's obviously having trouble with the new tyres, and it's usually a toss-up with how good he is at the starts. If he talked to Perez for an hour a day for a couple weeks and took some lessons with tyre wear, perhaps he could be right up there. Or perhaps not, which might prove me wrong.

And just in case nobody saw, Mr. Perez had ANOTHER 1-stop race.

I don't expect everyone to applaud it, I just find it annoying that people have started "hating" Vettel because he's winning. It's pretty petty if you ask me. And at every race this season (barring today's snorefest), there's been plenty of action to satisfy racing fans. It seems some people would be happy with a parade of a race as long as there's a fight for the lead. There's action up and down the field.

It may be petty, but that's the way it is. I mean, man, there's lots of stuff out there that is petty, but it happens. Not a whole lot you can do about it.

Also, not sure, but some of the "haters" might be coming out of the woodwork, and not just starting. They've got more things to talk about now.

While I would prefer more of a fight for the championship, there would be far fewer complaints if it was Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso in the same position.

Eh, that's a debatable "if" thing. Maybe about Alonso, but I think there would be plenty of complaining with Lewis.

 

[Peter.]

Debatable, very debatable. I don't see what magic barrier Vettel hasn't crossed yet that prevents him from being considered as good as those two if not better.
And everytime I bring this up, no one puts forth a good reason why they think Vettel isn't that good. Now he might be a double WDC and people will still say it, its ridiculous. People seem to have had their eyes truly blinded by Hamilton and Alonso-mania.

Probably saying that Alonso and Hamilton are better because in cars that are considerably inferior, they have both managed to chase him to the flag and challenge his victory, the latter succeeding once in dethroning him. Or maybe because both managed to win titles with cars that weren't the clear fastest cars on the grid. Or maybe because Vettel hasn't really had any great drives to victory. In fact, has any of Vettel's wins not been from pole?

 

[Moot]

Perez could have got 7th and 6pts if he had 2 stopped like Alguersuari . So Sauber could have done better.

 

[IceMan PJN]

Or maybe because Vettel hasn't really had any great drives to victory. In fact, has any of Vettel's wins not been from pole?

I've heard this point brought up before and it's a valid one.

Vettel's wins:
2008, race 14, Monza - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 3, Shanghai - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 8, Silverstone - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 15, Suzuka - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 17, Yas Marina - started 2nd, finished 1st
2010, race 3, Sepang - started 3rd, finished 1st
2010, race 9, Valencia - started 1st, finished 1st
2010, race 16, Suzuka - started 1st, finished 1st
2010, race 18, Autódromo José Carlos Pace - started 2nd, finished 1st
2010, race 19, Yas Marina - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 1, Melbourne - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 2, Sepang - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 4, Istanbul Park - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 5, Catalunya - started 2nd, finished 1st
2011, race 6, Monaco - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 8, Valencia - started 1st, finished 1st

I was actually surprised to see that he did, in fact, win a handful from a position other than pole; four, in fact. Still, even the victories that weren't from pole were from pretty close, but twelve out of his sixteen F1 wins, or 75%, have been from pole. I haven't gotten around to comparing this to other drivers of recent years to see whether they have won more times from positions other than the pole or not, so I can't honestly say at the moment whether having 75% of your wins from pole is high or fairly normal.

EDIT:
Alright, just for fairness, I compared versus my driver, Lewis Hamilton. When looking at just his official F1 wins (not counting the 2008 win at Spa that was wrongfully stolen from him by the stewards for violating a rule they never clarified until after the race), six of his fifteen wins have been from a position other than pole, although they've been within the top four grid spots. 60% of Hamilton's wins have been from pole, and 40% have been from a position other than pole. These shift slightly if you count the 2008 Spa win, which was also from pole, although it was also after losing the lead early on and having to fight Kimi tooth-and-nail for it for the rest of the race, culminating in an exciting race finish, which is very different from starting on pole and just having the lead for the entire race. Most of the wins he did have from pole were his earlier wins, while the majority of his more recent wins have been from slightly lower starting positions.

 

[Terronium-12]

Well remember Webber probably has the opposite considering he is an ordinary driver who had a great chance to win a championship and blew it.

That whole statement is daft. Yeah, Webber has had a horrible season when you compare it to his performance from last year...but as someone mentioned (as well as myself in another thread) Vettel is on an entirely different level this year, so of course no one is really going to look as fast as he is at the moment. It's not like Webber is down in 8th or 9th, he currently lies in third and can still win if he can start edging out Vettel again.

I also don't see how Webber "blew" anything, and add to that how Webber came all the way from P17 I think it was up to third? Yeah, if that's ordinary, then Kobayashi must also be "ordinary".

 

[DwightSchrute12]

I've heard this point brought up before and it's a valid one.

Vettel's wins:
2008, race 14, Monza - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 3, Shanghai - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 8, Silverstone - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 15, Suzuka - started 1st, finished 1st
2009, race 17, Yas Marina - started 2nd, finished 1st
2010, race 3, Sepang - started 3rd, finished 1st
2010, race 9, Valencia - started 1st, finished 1st
2010, race 16, Suzuka - started 1st, finished 1st
2010, race 18, Autódromo José Carlos Pace - started 2nd, finished 1st
2010, race 19, Yas Marina - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 1, Melbourne - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 2, Sepang - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 4, Istanbul Park - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 5, Catalunya - started 2nd, finished 1st
2011, race 6, Monaco - started 1st, finished 1st
2011, race 8, Valencia - started 1st, finished 1st

I was actually surprised to see that he did, in fact, win a handful from a position other than pole; four, in fact. Still, even the victories that weren't from pole were from pretty close, but twelve out of his sixteen F1 wins, or 75%, have been from pole. I haven't gotten around to comparing this to other drivers of recent years to see whether they have won more times from positions other than the pole or not, so I can't honestly say at the moment whether having 75% of your wins from pole is high or fairly normal.

A quick look up and math, and I figure

Hamilton has 15 wins, 9 from pole - 60%
Alonso has 26 wins, 13 from pole - 50%
Webber has 6 wins, 3 from pole - 50%
Button has 10 wins, 4 from pole - 40% (and all pole-wins were in 2009)
Schumi - 96 wins, 40 from pole - 41.7%

Disclaimer - Some math could be wrong, if so, correct & forgive me.

Now, Schumi is a bit of an oddball, since he has more wins than all others combined, including Seb. Also, you could look at other drivers too, I just quickly ran through a few current drivers. If someone wants to dig deeper, feel free, could be interesting.

But yes, nobody is at 75% pole/win ratio, Hamilton being the closest of the current drivers.

 

[lukecfc]

Easy in, easy out, cyas!

Why did you tune in for this race? Because all previous races this year have been great!
Done with F1 for a while? What on earth? So one boring race means you give up?

Deary me, if you guys had witnessed 2002-2004, you probably would have declared F1 a dead sport and never returned!

Loving the "oh noes, F1 is lame now, only one winner". Free tip - learn to watch for more than a race winner and a championship. This season has been one of the best ever, even if it has been a dominant performance from Vettel - so what? Its not like he was won every race by miles and lapped everyone. Alonso and Webber were genuinely close to catching Vettel today, ok so its been consistent gaps for Vettel every race but he has won on merit, not romped off to lap the field and had his teammate move over for him.
Just because the end result has been generally the same all year doesn't mean this is a terrible season. Some of you really need to think why you watch F1 if you only care about a results table.

Ok I'm sorry, I didn't mean it, of course I won't stop watching. You're right, the first 7 races have been great,but as someone just said, It's like giving us a taste of steak then giving us a bowl of rice. If you haven't seen the race, then you've probably seen in this thread how boring this race was, a huge contrast to say, Australia or China. To add to that, a flawless win by Vettel didn't help either. I'm glad he won, I'm a huge fan, but as a fan of the sport in general too, it's not very excited seeing him simply walk away with the title either.

 

[Barra333]

A quick look up and math, and I figure

Hamilton has 15 wins, 9 from pole - 60%
Alonso has 26 wins, 13 from pole - 50%
Webber has 6 wins, 3 from pole - 50%
Button has 10 wins, 4 from pole - 40% (and all pole-wins were in 2009)
Schumi - 96 wins, 40 from pole - 41.7%

Using results at http://www.chicanef1.com and some names off the top of my head:

Senna - 41 wins, 29 from pole (70.7%)
Prost - 51 wins, 18 from pole (35.3%)
Lauda - 25 wins, 9 from pole (36%)
Mansell - 31 wins, 17 from pole (54.8%)

Senna is the highest by far, is anyone going to call him an average driver? Stats can show you anything you want.