2011 Formula One Grand Prix de Monaco

[BlacqueJacques]

On to the next race, and opinions eh

 

[The Outlaw]

Poorly executed and unfair is just a fail comment, it was an ambitious, aggressive move that took Alonso by surprise, and it was executed accurately with no loss of control, which ultimately allowed Webber to take his first podium when he successfully passed him the following lap, If it was poorly executed he would have made contact with Alonso, or, Alonso would have had to make unnatural evasive manouvres to avoid contact..

Well coming from someone who has a habit of turning in dirty/illegitimate laps in WRS, I'm not surprised you consider Webber's attempted overtake to be accurately executed (and Alonso as the dirty rotten cheat in that footage )...despite the fact that Webber clearly could not get the car stopped before the run off area in order to make a legitimate/legal overtake. The funny part is, had Alonso backed off and bent over to give Webber the position by staying on track, Webber would have likely gotten a penalty or at least would have been told to give the position back anyway (as he had to use the run off area to complete the overtake)...so much such for that accurately executed overtake. Now his move on Kobayashi this year at the chicane was what I'd call accurately executed as he was able to keep the car within the boundaries to complete the overtake. I wouldn't call it the most fair move, but it was certainly a legitimate overtaking attempt according to the rules.

I have nothing against Webber mate...I think he is a great driver and one of the coolest guys on the grid. But your basis for bashing Alonso and how we got into this argument is a complete joke though (IMO), particularly when you look at the legitimacy of Webber's attempted overtake in that clip.

t may have seemed like a 'dive-bomb' but Webber had a superior car, superior tires, thats why he eventually made the move stick.

Key words - He eventually made the move stick. Because I wouldn't consider using the inside run off area as making the move stick. Maybe in GT5 online, but not at this level of racing.

 

[MarkWebber]

A habit of turning in dirty ilegitimate laps? Maybe once I unknowningly turned in a dirty lap as I failed to realize that a part of a track I was using was off limits. You're using uneducated accusations to try and support your argument and its pathetic.

First you call BOTH Webber's moves on Alonso and Kobayashi as being reckless and unfair and now you say, oh well maybe his move on Kobayashi was ok afterall, still unfair, but ok...lol, and just repeating that Brundle described it as instantly being 'brilliant', once he sorted out a slight mis-communication with David Coulthard. But I'm sure a move can be brilliant and unfair at the same time, especially when Alonso is involved. Clutching at straws you are.

If you look closely, at 0:04 they were exactly side by side, about 10 meteres from the apex, this means that Webber has outbraked Alonso and has a massive advantage over what happens next. Alonso had all the time and space in the world to take the chicane. He obviously was carrying slightly less speed at the moment he arrived at the apex than Webber, so he could have quite comfortably taken the corner, but you can see he made the descion to cut well before the corner, as soon as Webber was alog side him infact.

What it all boils down to is Alonso retained his position by cutting a corner, Webber was ahead under brakes but Alonso knew that If he tried to take the corner he would have lost the position, so he went straight ahead as a blatant cheater would do. He was beaten before the corner even started and yet somehow, the champion that he is, he has a devine right to be infront out the other end, typical arrogance and defiance from Alonso's behalf. Although I must say say or conclude, he is extremely talented driver and completely deserved his 2 world championship titles, he is making Massa look like an ametuer at the moment. But having said this it doesn't give you the right to cut the chicane at Monaco!

 

[F1 fan]

The funny part is, had Alonso backed off and bent over to give Webber the position by staying on track, Webber would have likely gotten a penalty or at least would have been told to give the position back anyway (as he had to use the run off area to complete the overtake)...

Not true. Webber indeed cut the chicane a little bit, but Alonso straight lined the chicane. If Alonso opted to slow down and let Webber through, Mark wouldn't have been penalized. And you certainly couldn't blame Webber if he seized the opportunity to overtake a slow running Alonso. I believe in this case, Alonso did the right thing as Webber couldn't complete the overtake and stick within the track limits. As long as he would have yielded to Webber had the stewards decided it was the right thing to do.

Never in a million years would it have ended in a penalty for Webber though.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Traditionally the overtaking opportunity at Monaco is in the braking zone between the tunnel exit and the chicane.

Last weekend we saw how dangerous the cars could be there in the new aero trim (one near miss, one palpable hit).

Towards the end of the race I'd just commented to Mrs. TenEightyOne that we'd seen no moves lined up there at all (probably because the DRS wings make the car profile a metre or so taller making them tough through the tunnel) when Webber lined Kobayashi up for an overtake in exactly that spot.

If Kobayashi hadn't overshot then Webber would have got down on his left with relative ease. Would the move have stuck? We'll never know - but once Kobayashi had retained advantage through departure the move was completed.

 

[The Outlaw]

This will be my last response to this topic.

A habit of turning in dirty illegitimate laps? Maybe once I unknowningly turned in a dirty lap as I failed to realize that a part of a track I was using was off limits. You're using uneducated accusations to try and support your argument and its pathetic.

The same logic applies here - In this case you seem to be oblivious to the fact that the area inside the curbing at the chicane (@ Monaco), isn't a legitimate area of the track to complete an overtake. End of story.

First you call BOTH Webber's moves on Alonso and Kobayashi as being reckless and unfair and now you say, oh well maybe his move on Kobayashi was ok afterall, still unfair, but ok...lol.

You need to read exactly what I say from now on, and quit assuming things as you've been doing all along.

If you look closely, at 0:04 they were exactly side by side, about 10 meteres from the apex, this means that Webber has outbraked Alonso and has a massive advantage over what happens next. Alonso had all the time and space in the world to take the chicane. He obviously was carrying slightly less speed at the moment he arrived at the apex than Webber, so he could have quite comfortably taken the corner, but you can see he made the descion to cut well before the corner, as soon as Webber was alog side him infact.

What it all boils down to is Alonso retained his position by cutting a corner, Webber was ahead under brakes but Alonso knew that If he tried to take the corner he would have lost the position, so he went straight ahead as a blatant cheater would do. He was beaten before the corner even started and yet somehow, the champion that he is, he has a devine right to be infront out the other end, typical arrogance and defiance from Alonso's behalf.

You see, this is where your argument falls apart. The basis of your argument (on the legitimacy of Webber's attempted overtake) rest on the fact that they were side by side at the turn in point. You continue to basically disregard (you put it aside) the fact that Webber only got to the turn in point at roughly the same time, because he was carrying far too much speed at that point to keep the car in bounds (in order to complete a legal overtake). The fact that Webber got to the turn in point at the same time means nothing mate! I could dive bomb you from a hundred feet back, while missing my braking point by 2 car lengths and still get to the turn in point at the same time of course...but does this mean the corner is all of sudden mine and the overtake has become legit (and accurately executed), despite the fact that I can't get the car slowed down on time in order to stay within the legal area of the track to complete the pass? I sure think not. Again again, the fact that Webber put in the effort to try and make the pass stick within the track boundries makes no difference in regards to the legality of the attempted overtake.

But having said this it doesn't give you the right to cut the chicane at Monaco!

Unless you're name is Mark Webber, and you are trying to complete a dive bomb overtake. In that case, the run off area has your name written all over it

Not true. Webber indeed cut the chicane a little bit, but Alonso straight lined the chicane. If Alonso opted to slow down and let Webber through, Mark wouldn't have been penalized. And you certainly couldn't blame Webber if he seized the opportunity to overtake a slow running Alonso. I believe in this case, Alonso did the right thing as Webber couldn't complete the overtake and stick within the track limits. As long as he would have yielded to Webber had the stewards decided it was the right thing to do.

Never in a million years would it have ended in a penalty for Webber though.

Maybe the term "penalty" was a poor choice of words by me. But I'm a bit confused as to where you stand (which was probably caused by more poor wording). But are you implying that Webber would have been allowed to overtake Alonso outside the track limits, without any sort of reprimand (or call from the steward to give the position back)?

Regardless of all this, I don't see how one (MarkWebber) can get off on labeling Alonso some big cheat in this particular case, when you take into consideration Webber's improperly executed overtaking attempt (which more importantly would have been classified as an illegal overtake had Fernando not used the run off area), which was never going to gain him the position to begin with.

 

[F1 fan]

Maybe the term "penalty" was a poor choice of words by me. But I'm a bit confused as to where you stand (which was probably caused by more poor wording). But are you implying that Webber would have been allowed to overtake Alonso outside the track limits, without any sort of reprimand (or call from the steward to give the position back)?

Regardless of all this, I don't see how one (MarkWebber) can get off on labeling Alonso some big cheat in this particular case, when you take into consideration Webber's improperly executed overtaking attempt (which more importantly would have been classified as an illegal overtake had Fernando not used the run off area), which was never going to gain him the position to begin with.

I'm not implying that Webber would have been allowed to overtake outside the track limits. But in the example given, Webber slightly cut the chicane then made the rest of it within the track limits. Alonso just straight lined it... Granted he didn't have much of a choice. If Webber didn't cut the chicane in the slightest, Alonso would have had to give the position back (as seen at Monaco last weekend when Kobayashi yielded to Webber). I was responding to your comment that Webber would have been penalized had Alonso yielded the place to him. If a driver does "back off and bend over" to give someone the position, the other driver wouldn't have been penalized.

It's one thing to do a dirty overtake. It's a completely different thing if someone 🤬's up and gives away a position.

 

[The Outlaw]

I'm not implying that Webber would have been allowed to overtake outside the track limits. But in the example given, Webber slightly cut the chicane then made the rest of it within the track limits. Alonso just straight lined it... Granted he didn't have much of a choice. If Webber didn't cut the chicane in the slightest, Alonso would have had to give the position back (as seen at Monaco last weekend when Kobayashi yielded to Webber). I was responding to your comment that Webber would have been penalized had Alonso yielded the place to him. If a driver does "back off and bend over" to give someone the position, the other driver wouldn't have been penalized.

It's one thing to do a dirty overtake. It's a completely different thing if someone 🤬's up and gives away a position.

It seems there was a misunderstanding as to what I said...sorry if it was my fault. Anyway, I'll try and clear things up.

When I said "had Alonso backed off and bent over to give Webber the position by staying on track", I intended this to mean that, had Alonso stayed on track and disregarded using the run off area to begin with (and made way for Mark's overambitious/poorly executed overtake), Mark would have mostly likely been forced to give the position back anyway (due to driving out of bounds to complete the overtake). Which is basically what my side of the argument relvolves around, in defense to MarkWebber's accusations that Alonso was some sort of cheat for using the run off area...when it was an illegaly executed overtaking attempt from Webber to begin with.

 

[Terronium-12]

I know this is largely off-topic but as I didn't want (or knew if it was 'safe') to start a new thread, I'll just say/ask it here for the time being:

1. I had no idea Barrichello won the inaugural Chinese GP (he even lapped a few people, how fast was the F2004?) - way to go Rubeno!

2. Even though this whole V8 and V6 engine supply has happened in F1's past, does anyone think V10 and 12 will, eventually, make a glorious comeback once again? F1 is exciting now but it really boils down to the fantastic racing going on, whereas back then it was a combination of race craft and the sounds the engines made which arguably made things that much more exciting.

 

[Tesla]

I know this is largely off-topic but as I didn't want (or knew if it was 'safe') to start a new thread, I'll just say/ask it here for the time being:

1. I had no idea Barrichello won the inaugural Chinese GP (he even lapped a few people, how fast was the F2004?) - way to go Rubeno!

2. Even though this whole V8 and V6 engine supply has happened in F1's past, does anyone think V10 and 12 will, eventually, make a glorious comeback once again? F1 is exciting now but it really boils down to the fantastic racing going on, whereas back then it was a combination of race craft and the sounds the engines made which arguably made things that much more exciting.

I think at some point in the future we'll see them again. Perhaps when the whole recession thing dies down and teams at the bottom of the grid start to have some serious money backing them. The only problem I can think of is the whole 'green' movement, which I honestly don't like seeing affecting the top level of motorsport.

 

[Matti_Dude]

I hope the V10's and V12's do make their return eventually, I loved the sound of those. But I can't see this happening in the foreseeable future, and when it does I can't imagine they will be the old 3 litre sizes that they were before. I don't know too much about engines but if it were say a 1.5 litre V10, would it sound the same as the 3 litres from 2004? And yeah the F2004 really kicked ass, I think that if Schumacher and Ferrari wanted to they could have won even more races that year than they did, it was as if Michael stopped trying once he'd won the championship.

 

[Grand Prix]

I know this is largely off-topic but as I didn't want (or knew if it was 'safe') to start a new thread, I'll just say/ask it here for the time being:

1. I had no idea Barrichello won the inaugural Chinese GP (he even lapped a few people, how fast was the F2004?) - way to go Rubeno!

2. Even though this whole V8 and V6 engine supply has happened in F1's past, does anyone think V10 and 12 will, eventually, make a glorious comeback once again? F1 is exciting now but it really boils down to the fantastic racing going on, whereas back then it was a combination of race craft and the sounds the engines made which arguably made things that much more exciting.

I don't think we will. When the teams keep finding new ways to make their cars faster through the corners, straight-line speed / the power of the engines is one thing the FIA can still manipulate to keep the sport safe. Maybe if they used 1 litre V12s.... but that's a big if.

Back in 1966 the engines were enlarged from 1.5 litres to 3 litres, the result being numerous fatalities throughout the late 1960s.

 

[MarkWebber]

You can't preempt weather someone is going to make a corner or not OutLaw, it goes against the spirit of racing. The stewards would have made a judgment call and weighed up the efforts of both driver's. Mark made a fair braking maneuver and was close enough to dive in and attempt the pass, Mark followed the route of the chicane as best he could, only missing 1 part of the apex and gained no advantage in doing so. On the other side of the coin Alonso when straight ahead, that's it. He made no attempt to take the chicane even though he had room and time to do so, and I think this is the critical part of the equation, he had the time and space to brake that little bit more to accommodate for the sharper turn he would have to had to have made to follow the track limits correctly.


My final message, If you are seriously saying that Webber was 100 percent at fault and that Alonso did everything he could within the rules to retain his position, then you are very stubborn. As I am sure 90 percent of F1 fans would find Fernando's actions as against the SOR. Maybe even a vote would be pretty interesting?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I know this is largely off-topic but as I didn't want (or knew if it was 'safe') to start a new thread, I'll just say/ask it here for the time being:

1. I had no idea Barrichello won the inaugural Chinese GP (he even lapped a few people, how fast was the F2004?) - way to go Rubeno!

2. Even though this whole V8 and V6 engine supply has happened in F1's past, does anyone think V10 and 12 will, eventually, make a glorious comeback once again? F1 is exciting now but it really boils down to the fantastic racing going on, whereas back then it was a combination of race craft and the sounds the engines made which arguably made things that much more exciting.

Well a few things would have to happen I think for this to happen. First off Bernie would have to be out of the program and his goons. And a actual person who is a people's man instead of trying to make tons of money. A guy that would not go back to Bahrain this year and say too bad we'll see you next year. Anyways back to the engines. The FIA would also need to be convinced that V6, V8, V10 and V12 engines can be "green" (that term is so annoying) like the V4/I4 turbo engines they want for 2013. Cause the 2013 V4 tubo idea is just not doing it for me 650 hp with out KERS or ERS and a max rpm of 12,000. How do you go from 18500 and 19000 to 12000 rpm four cylinder engines? Also another issue I have is that they plan to increase the weight of the cars as well for 2013.

 

[Terronium-12]

I think at some point in the future we'll see them again. Perhaps when the whole recession thing dies down and teams at the bottom of the grid start to have some serious money backing them. The only problem I can think of is the whole 'green' movement, which I honestly don't like seeing affecting the top level of motorsport.

I remember back in '09 team costs and budgeting was mentioned quite often. I'd like to think that citing the environment is more a fallback as opposed to an outright truth...which would be what I opened with: costs. Personally, I'd think or rather I'd like to believe that once the economy stabilizes again things might pick up.

I hope the V10's and V12's do make their return eventually, I loved the sound of those. But I can't see this happening in the foreseeable future, and when it does I can't imagine they will be the old 3 litre sizes that they were before. I don't know too much about engines but if it were say a 1.5 litre V10, would it sound the same as the 3 litres from 2004? And yeah the F2004 really kicked ass, I think that if Schumacher and Ferrari wanted to they could have won even more races that year than they did, it was as if Michael stopped trying once he'd won the championship.

Wasn't '04 the season Alonso ended his reign or was that the following season?

On a different yet similar note, I've said it once and I'll say it again: had Barrichello been an equal opportunity player during his time at Ferrari he'd have at least one or two WDC's to his name. From what I've seen his performances while at Ferrari were simply staggering (I still watch that ridiculous qualifying lap he put in at Monza of the same year to this day), even moreso than his time at Brawn. Of course he was younger then but still.

I don't think we will. When the teams keep finding new ways to make their cars faster through the corners, straight-line speed / the power of the engines is one thing the FIA can still manipulate to keep the sport safe. Maybe if they used 1 litre V12s.... but that's a big if.

Back in 1966 the engines were enlarged from 1.5 litres to 3 litres, the result being numerous fatalities throughout the late 1960s.

What was the displacement of the V10's?

I'd love to hear the screaming engines make a comeback. Even tipping the scale near 20,000 RPM the V8's still sound nothing like their V10 and V12 counterparts. Obviously so with the lack of the additional 2 and 4 cylinders but you see my point nonetheless. Basically I'm saying the V8's need to be compressing/pushing more air than they are now.

Well a few things would have to happen I think for this to happen. First off Bernie would have to be out of the program and his goons. And a actual person who is a people's man instead of trying to make tons of money. A guy that would not go back to Bahrain this year and say too bad we'll see you next year. Anyways back to the engines. The FIA would also need to be convinced that V6, V8, V10 and V12 engines can be "green" (that term is so annoying) like the V4/I4 turbo engines they want for 2013. Cause the 2013 V4 tubo idea is just not doing it for me 650 hp with out KERS or ERS and a max rpm of 12,000. How do you go from 18500 and 19000 to 12000 rpm four cylinder engines? Also another issue I have is that they plan to increase the weight of the cars as well for 2013.

Ignoring the 12k malarkey (really, 12,000 RPM?)...what happened to the rumored ground effects? I know I heard something about it being put off but I can't remember if it was official or just a rumor...

 

[homeforsummer]

Perhaps when the whole recession thing dies down and teams at the bottom of the grid start to have some serious money backing them.

One of those two things isn't going to happen.

The only problem I can think of is the whole 'green' movement, which I honestly don't like seeing affecting the top level of motorsport.

To say this is to not think laterally. It has the potential to improve F1 if anything, because a byproduct of having to make cars more efficient is improvements in technology and aerodynamics - necessity is the mother of invention.

I'd personally welcome more stringent regulations on the amount of fuel teams are allowed to use, for example, as it encourages ingenious ideas. Leave things as they are and creativity will suffer.

Of course, changing the regulations is always difficult for the lower-funded teams, but since when in the history of the sport have things been any different? I love seeing the underdogs as much as the next guy but if they can't afford to compete, they can't afford to compete.

If anything, the 107% rule is more harm to small teams than budget cuts because it works completely irrespective of budget. Small teams have paid huge amounts of money just to get a place on the grid, but if they have a bad qualifying they're not even allowed to compete. You could argue they're rolling road blocks (particularly at tracks like Monaco) but they've paid Bernie a hell of a lot to get a chance to compete and then they have it taken away. It's like buying a sports car but it being taken away from you because you only use it to drive to the shops.

 

[Grand Prix]

What was the displacement of the V10's?

I'd love to hear the screaming engines make a comeback. Even tipping the scale near 20,000 RPM the V8's still sound nothing like their V10 and V12 counterparts. Obviously so with the lack of the additional 2 and 4 cylinders but you see my point nonetheless. Basically I'm saying the V8's need to be compressing/pushing more air than they are now.

3 litres. Was just saying that the cars are already dangerously quick as it is. Add 3 litre V12s and V10s back into the mix and we could see some seriously hideous accidents. The safety of the cars and tracks have come a long way, as shown in Perez's accident and even Kubica's accident in Montreal a few years ago. I just don't think that the FIA think they're safe enough to bring back, for the time being.

Don't get me wrong, I've love to see F1 with 1000hp and musical engines again, too. It's just that the FIA want the sport to be as safe as possible, and appeal to today's green movement.

Would be interesting to see what F1 would be like today without the stupid engine freezes, qualifying changes, 2.4L V8s, "option" tires and KERS crap. I wonder if it would have survived into the 2010s.

 

[ZeGermanBastorD]

I hope the V10's and V12's do make their return eventually, I loved the sound of those.

Forget it. The turbo charged V4 engine is on the way: V4 engines approved by WMSC, F1 teams to decide start of usage – Formula 1 news

I guess we are going to see more blown up engines in the next seasons. 👍

 

[C-ZETA]

F1 teams to decide start of usage

Ferrari - Never

 

[Grand Prix]

Ferrari - Never

Although, 4 cylinder engines aren't exactly new or blasphemous to Ferrari:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Monza

 

[Terronium-12]

All of this boils down to what my core logic is: history is repeating itself. The circumstances and severity may differ, but it's repeating itself nonetheless. Based on that alone (for arguments sake) you can see where any, if not all optimism would derive.

After a while F1 cars are either going to sound like Rad SR8's or maybe even the Pug 908...which basically has no sound. I've gotten into the sport too late.

 

[Matti_Dude]

I just hope that these engines don't get implemented anytime soon. The longer we can keep the V8 engines the better in my opinion.

 

[homeforsummer]

As long as the racing is good I wouldn't care if they were powered by hamsters.

 

[MarkWebber]

All I'm saying is that neither of these overtaking attempts (particlarly the one on Alonso) were what one might call fair....yet you call Alonso the cheat


The bottom line is, he didn't make the corner...whether he put in the effort to try and make the corner makes no difference. He never officially had the position to begin with, so no reason for Alonso to concede the spot.



He missed the apex (on the inside curbing) by more than a car width...what's that? < 2 meters?




Have I?

Erm he had the position at the braking area for the corner, he was ahead, and on the inside, then we all know what happened, the fact that you can sit there and type this crap about both moves being unfair is a sign of your lack of understanding of formula 1.

 

[Akmuq]

Boo at V4 engines.👎 Yes it's an achievement to get over 600 BHP out of a V4 and yes it will keep costs down but it's just wrong. They will sound like road cars and they will be going slower.

I mentioned this here before and I'll say it again. F1 should be how it is now and just have V12 engines on them with 1000 BHP. That and all the British circuits, you know, the extremley dangerous to run on with an F1 car circuits.

 

[UK-Gamer]

The thing about these V4's is that the GP2 guys will be running 4L V8's at 615hp approx. Yes they are limited to 10k rpm but what will happen when the GP2 cars get really close to the F1's?

Even the WSR cars in 2012 are getting 3.5L V8's!
The V12's most likely wont be coming back, however I would like to see the V10's make a return.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Let F1 have the V-8's and V-10's, but the specatators (if) should drive the 4 cyclinders to the circuit (or take public transit)

 

[lmanion]

Give them a capacity limit and limit the amount of fuel they can use for a race, a bit like group C was. Other than that let them choose cylinders. Also we need to get rid of the kers and DRS and have more than one tyre supplier. Tyre and engine companies trying to out do each other is what we need to see.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I wish people would shut up about 4 cylinder engines. 👎

Don't any of you remember Mister BMW 1.5 Litre Turbo 4 cylinder M12 1983 F1 Championship engine?

By 1986 it produced 1350 BHP.

Wait until you see the new engines in action before you decide they are rubbish.

 

[Ardius]

V4? As far as I know, they are intending to use the much more popular inline-4 layout. The whole point of this exercise is to bring in more manufacturers and make it "greener". V4's seem to be pretty rare for cars.

I don't think anyone is worried about power figures, I think people are worried about the sound. Sure a inline-4 turbo will be a screamer..but nothing like the roar of V10s or V12s.
To be honest, I'd rather engines became cheaper and more suppliers entered the sport than having a spec-V12 engine produced by only one supplier. So personally I don't mind the I4-turbo idea.

What do engines have to do with Monaco baby?