2011 Formula One Grand Prix de Monaco

[UK-Gamer]

Maldonado also had the right to block Hamilton or do whatever sensible to protect his position.

But then what happened? If Maldonado didn't turn in on Hamilton, he would've finished 7th with 6 points however, he turned in trying to defend and then was at fault for the accident (50%) and ended up with 0 points and yet another DNF.

I don't see why Hamilton is getting all the critics for this, Maldonado clearly was trying to turn in on Hamilton, but he got shot n the foot.

You can say that Lewis was "Causing an unavoidable accident" but if someone gets a little contact whilst performing an overtaking maneuver you can also say that to them. Overtaking is risky, it has that risk of collision, things like this need to be chalked down to a racing incident.

 

[Prince.M5]

But then what happened? If Maldonado didn't turn in on Hamilton, he would've finished 7th with 6 points however, he turned in trying to defend and then was at fault for the accident (50%) and ended up with 0 points and yet another DNF.

Perhaps you should question this to Maldonado himself. All I'm saying is that basically, Maldonado had the rights to block or do anything sensible to protect his position and Hamilton also had the rights to do anything sensible to take the position away from Maldonado and give absolutely no harm to any one of them instead, the other side happened...

My views on the incident has already been discussed back at page 46 with an onboard video to support my statement.

 

[The Outlaw]

Hand gesture from Mark?, oh now I see it, it was probably a, 'hey you better slow down and give me the position or I'll punch you in the face after the race' gesture, not a 'you almost crashed into me gesture'. Maybe it wasn't a gesture but a way of rotating the wheel as fast as possible, but this is highly unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there anyway. In any case, it was a split second decision to raise his hand, because after all, he made a great pass and yet Kobayashi is still in front of him, instantly you would be pissed off.

Still brings me to Webber V Alonso '05 when Webber got his first ever podium, Alonso cut the chicane and didn't give the place back immediately unlike Kobayashi, Webber had to wait until the next lap to pass him at the same place, Alonso again cut the chicane but his exit speed was compromised and Webber was able to pass him at the fast left, some drivers just don't know when to give it up when they're lost or when they've blatantly cheated, Alonso is one of them.

C'mon Dan...as if that pass by Mark was even close to being fairplay to begin. Webber just dived bombed Alonso and gave him nowhere else to go

But then what happened? If Maldonado didn't turn in on Hamilton, he would've finished 7th with 6 points however, he turned in trying to defend and then was at fault for the accident (50%) and ended up with 0 points and yet another DNF.

I don't see why Hamilton is getting all the critics for this, Maldonado clearly was trying to turn in on Hamilton, but he got shot n the foot.

You can say that Lewis was "Causing an unavoidable accident" but if someone gets a little contact whilst performing an overtaking maneuver you can also say that to them. Overtaking is risky, it has that risk of collision, things like this need to be chalked down to a racing incident.

I agree. And I'm not sure how much longer people can squabble over this and the other LH incidents at Monaco lol.

 

[Akmuq]

Ok, Hamilton did make a very dirty overtake but it's pretty clear Maldonado turned in a car length early to get Hamilton in trouble. Maldonado deserved to be knocked out but in truth Hamilton should have been more penalised then that. Since he was the last man on the lead lap he got virtually no penalty.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Regardless of our opinions, they keep making their millions eh

 

[MarkWebber]

C'mon Dan...as if that pass by Mark was even close to being fairplay to begin. Webber just dived bombed Alonso and gave him nowhere else to go

Same as what he did to Kobayashi, they were side by side at the point of the appropriate trun in point for that corner, Webber had the inside and he made a damn good attempt to make the chicane, Alonso just cut straight across, clear and simple Alonso cheat. Everyone agreed at the time, being the commentators, I'm sure Alonso would have been penalised after the race If he finished ahead, its just that there were only a few laps remaining by that stage and Webber passed him the next lap anyway.

Kobayashi is my next favourite driver and he showed class to slow down and let him pass.

 

[The Outlaw]

Same as what he did to Kobayashi, they were side by side at the point of the appropriate trun in point for that corner, Webber had the inside and he made a damn good attempt to make the chicane, Alonso just cut straight across, clear and simple Alonso cheat. Everyone agreed at the time, being the commentators, I'm sure Alonso would have been penalised after the race If he finished ahead, its just that there were only a few laps remaining by that stage and Webber passed him the next lap anyway.

Kobayashi is my next favourite driver and he showed class to slow down and let him pass.

The only reason Webber got to the turn in point at the same time as Alonso was because he was carrying ~ 10-15mph too much speed under entry to begin with (hence why he coudn't make the corner cleanly), and Fernando had already likely backed off by then as he saw Mark rather wrecklessly throw it up the inside, figuring he wasn't going to make the corner.

In my eyes it was actually a bit worse than the Kobayashi pass, as Webber couldn't even keep the car within the track boundries to complete the pass. If anything it is a "cheat" move by Webber, by just tossing the car down the inside and hoping the guy on the outside would either yield to his wrecklessness/forcefulness, or be forced across the run off (to avoid contact) so that he can get an easy pass - which sounds cool to me...not. Basically, I don't see how Alonso is the big cheat in this...unless passing is about throwing your car up the inside and forcing the other driver to yield (something Alonso didn't really do) by a country mile to avoid collision.

Regardless of our opinions, they keep making their millions eh

Exactly. Call them idiots all you want, but at the end of the day you're not making a dime for criticizing them on a forum (something most would unlikely do face to face), nor does your bank roll likely amount to a hill of beans in comparison to theirs...so go ahead and keep wasting your time getting butthurt

 

[YellowG1]

Exactly. Call them idiots all you want, but at the end of the day you're not making a dime for criticizing them on a forum (something most would unlikely do face to face), nor does your bank roll likely amount to a hill of beans in comparison to theirs...so go ahead and keep wasting your time getting butthurt

+1. Not only that, 99% of the people offering opinions here have never even sat in a race car or lie about it. 👎

 

[BlacqueJacques]

:tup:Well said previous 2 posts

 

[Tired Tyres]

There is an interesting take on Hamilton's "is it because I'm black" quote on the Radio Le Mans site Midweek motor sport S6 Episode 20. It's about two thirds or so through the mp3 after the Allan McNish interview.

http://rlm.0157.org/main.php

 

[Terronium-12]

Exactly. Call them idiots all you want, but at the end of the day you're not making a dime for criticizing them on a forum (something most would unlikely do face to face), nor does your bank roll likely amount to a hill of beans in comparison to theirs...so go ahead and keep wasting your time getting butthurt

+1. Not only that, 99% of the people offering opinions here have never even sat in a race car or lie about it. 👎

So wait a minute, are the two (technically three) of you implying, jesting, or hinting that just because these folks make millions on the dollar that we aren't allowed to disagree with their behavior on the track just because (and you're all assuming might I add) that none of us make the same or near the same amount of annual income? If so, then I have to say...that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. If that's the case why criticize anyone when they make more money than you, no matter how much, or what they do? And where is this "99%" statistic coming from?

There's a whole lot of assumption going on here.

Also, what in the good hell does ever having been in a racing seat have to do with questionable overtakes?

 

[F1 fan]

Interestingly, Pirelli claim Vettel's tires would have lasted the distance. Can't link it but it's on this weeks' Autosport cover.

 

[The Outlaw]

So wait a minute, are the two (technically three) of you implying, jesting, or hinting that just because these folks make millions on the dollar that we aren't allowed to disagree with their behavior on the track just because (and you're all assuming might I add) that none of us make the same or near the same amount of annual income?

I can't speak for the others, but that is not really what I meant.

Of course you can have your opinion (one that others can agree with or not). I just find the people throwing around the strong name calling/insults in an attempt to make them out to be some type of fool (i.e. calling Lewis an idiot or jackasz) to be a bit laughable (just my honest opinion btw)...considering these guys get paid massive amounts of money to do what they love for a living, while the criticizer are only left to comment on what this "idiot" (Lewis) did because they are followers of the sport this "idiot" participates in Basically I just find it to be rather contradicting...that's all.

Basically the criticizers are more worried about looking out the window being critical of others (or the so called "idiots"), rather than spending time to better themselves.

 

[Terronium-12]

I can't speak for the others, but that is not really what I meant.

Of course you can have your opinion (one that others can agree with or not). I just find the people throwing around the strong name calling/insults in an attempt to make them out to be some type of fool (i.e. calling Lewis an idiot or jackasz) to be a bit laughable (just my honest opinion btw)...considering these guys get paid massive amounts of money to do what they love for a living, while the criticizer are only left to comment on what this "idiot" (Lewis) did because they are followers of the sport this "idiot" participates in Basically I just find it to be rather contradicting...that's all.

Basically the criticizers are more worried about looking out the window being critical of others (or the so called "idiots"), rather than spending time to better themselves.

I'm a bit puzzled.

I understand what you're saying for the most part, but I don't understand what my (for example, I'm not pointing a finger at you) well-being has to do with the questionable actions of Webber (arguable at the moment...I'm still watching that clip several times myself), Hamilton, Maldo -- basically everyone involved in the incidents on everyone's mind at the moment? Where's the significance in me bettering myself when my opinion on the whole thing will remain unaffected? I think I know where you're going with it, but again, it has no relevance to the issue. They made rash, arguably stupid decisions and can (within reason of course) rightfully be referred to as jackasses. Has my perception of any of the drivers changed? Other than Hamilton (not so much the actual incidents but his comments after the race), absolutely not.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

So wait a minute, are the two (technically three) of you implying, jesting, or hinting that just because these folks make millions on the dollar that we aren't allowed to disagree with their behavior on the track just because (and you're all assuming might I add) that none of us make the same or near the same amount of annual income? If so, then I have to say...that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. If that's the case why criticize anyone when they make more money than you, no matter how much, or what they do? And where is this "99%" statistic coming from?

There's a whole lot of assumption going on here.

Also, what in the good hell does ever having been in a racing seat have to do with questionable overtakes?

I agree with this 100% and not to count the fact that if you've watched formula one anywhere from 5 to 10 even 20 years each race, after a while like with any sport you'll learn what is a good move and what isn't a good move. What rules should come into play and what should not come into play. See that's why they have sports analyst that have never participated in the sport professionally but know and have an indepth technical understanding of it. You don't need to be in the driver seat just to make comments on F1 or any racing for that matter. Now if I were to say I can drive better than Webber or Button...well then you can laugh and what not but not for us talking about the rules. So great comment here Terronium

 

[Ardius]

Interestingly, Pirelli claim Vettel's tires would have lasted the distance. Can't link it but it's on this weeks' Autosport cover.

Lasted the distance or kept enough life to hold off Alonso and Button? I think everyone accepted that Vettel would finish the race at least in 3rd (i.e. the tyres wouldn't wear to the canvas or puncture), but the question is whether he could have held off the superior grip Alonso and Button enjoyed. Or in other words, would the relative performance have become so great he would have struggled to hold them off?
We will never know, I think Alonso was looking like he was going to try something, he probably knew that a win for Fezza would be very important, much more than simply a podium.

 

[MarkWebber]

The only reason Webber got to the turn in point at the same time as Alonso was because he was carrying ~ 10-15mph too much speed under entry to begin with (hence why he coudn't make the corner cleanly), and Fernando had already likely backed off by then as he saw Mark rather wrecklessly throw it up the inside, figuring he wasn't going to make the corner.

In my eyes it was actually a bit worse than the Kobayashi pass, as Webber couldn't even keep the car within the track boundries to complete the pass. If anything it is a "cheat" move by Webber, by just tossing the car down the inside and hoping the guy on the outside would either yield to his wrecklessness/forcefulness, or be forced across the run off (to avoid contact) so that he can get an easy pass - which sounds cool to me...not. Basically, I don't see how Alonso is the big cheat in this...unless passing is about throwing your car up the inside and forcing the other driver to yield (something Alonso didn't really do) by a country mile to avoid collision.

A bit worse than Kobayashi's pass? So your saying that Webber's pass on Kobayashi was bad to begin with? And yet the expert unbiased (unlike yourself) commentators in David Coulthard and Martin Brundle described it as being 'superb', go figure.

You have to give the person who makes the effort to make the corner the green light, If Webber was carrying 10-15mph more speed he would have missed the apex by about 1 or 2 metres, he only missed it by 20 or 30 cm, and his effort to make the corner cost him time so he gained no advantage. There's no point in arguing with you as you've clearly made up your mind that any passing attempt Webber makes is reckless right from the word go.

 

[Seismica]

At first I didn't like Webber's move on Kobayashi. But now seeing the replay, Webber made the corner. The problem with that Chicane is the initial turn in can only accomodate one car, so the defending car has to use the run-off.

The difference with Hamilton and Maldonado at turn one is simple, Maldonado couldn't just use the run-off to avoid Hamilton, he had to turn into the corner. The fact he turned in earlier is irrelevant when you consider that Hamilton was too far back to beat Maldonado to the apex without pushing him off-line (i.e. he wasn't side by side). Maldonado was put in a position where he had to concede the place or get hit. If the stewards didn't punish Hamilton for this move, it would have set a precedent that taking out the driver infront is ok as long as you only intended to overtake and the defending driver didn't concede the place like a good boy.

Call it what you will, I just feel that those sort of overtakes are unfair and unsporting.

 

[The Outlaw]

A bit worse than Kobayashi's pass? So your saying that Webber's pass on Kobayashi was bad to begin with? .

All I'm saying is that neither of these overtaking attempts (particlarly the one on Alonso) were what one might call fair....yet you call Alonso the cheat But that's no suprise given your track record and love of bashing Alonso and Ferrari

And yet the expert unbiased (unlike yourself) commentators in David Coulthard and Martin Brundle described it as being 'superb', go figure .

"Expert unbiased (unlike yourself) commentators" ??? - Complete assumptions but that's ok Not to mention that I often find those 2 (particularly Coulthard) to be quite biased.

You have to give the person who makes the effort to make the corner the green light,.

The bottom line is, he didn't make the corner...whether he put in the effort to try and make the corner makes no difference. He never officially had the position to begin with, so no reason for Alonso to concede the spot.

If Webber was carrying 10-15mph more speed he would have missed the apex by about 1 or 2 metres, he only missed it by 20 or 30 cm, and his effort to make the corner cost him time so he gained no advantage. There's no point in arguing with you as you've clearly made up your mind that any passing attempt Webber makes is reckless right from the word go.

He missed the apex (on the inside curbing) by more than a car width...what's that? < 2 meters?

There's no point in arguing with you as you've clearly made up your mind that any passing attempt Webber makes is reckless right from the word go.

Have I?

 

[Peter.]

Same as what he did to Kobayashi, they were side by side at the point of the appropriate trun in point for that corner, Webber had the inside and he made a damn good attempt to make the chicane, Alonso just cut straight across, clear and simple Alonso cheat. Everyone agreed at the time, being the commentators, I'm sure Alonso would have been penalised after the race If he finished ahead, its just that there were only a few laps remaining by that stage and Webber passed him the next lap anyway.

Kobayashi is my next favourite driver and he showed class to slow down and let him pass.

You know, you're incredible bias against Alonso no matter what, is getting annoying. You never miss an opportunity to call Alonso a cheat. Alonso had nowhere to go in that video because your beloved Webber swooped down like a hawk and gave him no room. Even Webber cut the chichane a bit. And Alonso wouldn't have been penalised for anything, because the stewards would see that he really had nowhere to go, and that Webber cut it too. No cheating there.

If Alonso saved you from being robbed, I can see you calling him a cheat for hitting below the belt.

👎

 

[MarkWebber]

You know, you're incredible bias against Alonso no matter what, is getting annoying. You never miss an opportunity to call Alonso a cheat. Alonso had nowhere to go in that video because your beloved Webber swooped down like a hawk and gave him no room. Even Webber cut the chichane a bit. And Alonso wouldn't have been penalised for anything, because the stewards would see that he really had nowhere to go, and that Webber cut it too. No cheating there.

If Alonso saved you from being robbed, I can see you calling him a cheat for hitting below the belt.

👎

Alonso made a premature decision to cut the chicane without the knowledge of weather Webber would have made the corner or not, hence it's a breach of the rules and the stewards would have most certainly penalised him for his indiscretion. Alonso should have followed Webber's route through the chicane and made a better effort than what he did. Essentially speaking it's not a 100 percent clear cut call, it's more of a 70/30 Webber

The comentators (Brundle) were talking about it immediately after (I remember it reasonably accurately seeing as how it was Australia's first podium, in 20/30 odd years), as to the driver who made the best attempt at the chicane should be allowed through, Alonso just simply copped out, he avoided all risks and he wasn't going to get away with it.


@Outlaw I think the overtaking attempt on Kobayashi was as fair as they come if Brundle, a person who has infinitely more knowledge than you do about racing, called the move as 'SUPERB'.

Brundle and Coulthard would only be biased towards Hamilton and Button If at all.

He did not miss the apex (the rumble strip at the first right hander of the complex) by more than a car width, get your eyes checked, it was half a car width at best.

You make illogical statements and you have a very poor understanding about the art of overtaking.

 

[Peter.]

Webber's move on Kobayashi was pretty much the same as his on Alonso. Kobayashi cut the chichane too, why aren't you calling him a cheat? Webber swooped down the inside, giving the other driver little options. Should they try to take the corner anyway, and risk an accident, or cancel those risks and cut the corner? Cancel the risks and cut the corner, the driver's excuse can just be that they had no room. And it's not a bad excuse. Alonso did it, Kobayashi did too.

 

[Akmuq]

Webber's move on Kobayashi was pretty much the same as his on Alonso. Kobayashi cut the chichane too, why aren't you calling him a cheat? Webber swooped down the inside, giving the other driver little options. Should they try to take the corner anyway, and risk an accident, or cancel those risks and cut the corner? Cancel the risks and cut the corner, the driver's excuse can just be that they had no room. And it's not a bad excuse. Alonso did it, Kobayashi did too.

Kobayashi gave up the place though....

 

[Peter.]

Kobayashi gave up the place though....

I think it's that Webber got a better exit off the corner because Kobayashi had to go over the runoff, where there's no grip.

 

[Moot]

Kobayashi didn't have to let Webber pass him when he missed the chicane as he didn't gain a place. So I think Kobayashi just made a mistake and couldn't get back on the power to keep his position, it's not an issue of he did the right thing, in any-case the right thing would be to block Webber from passing after he missed the chicane, with one move only of course.

 

[Akmuq]

I think it's that Webber got a better exit off the corner because Kobayashi had to go over the runoff, where there's no grip.

Possibly but I think that he would have let Webber past anyways.

Kobayashi didn't have to let Webber pass him when he missed the chicane as he didn't gain a place. So I think Kobayashi just made a mistake and couldn't get back on the power to keep his position, it's not an issue of he did the right thing, in any-case the right thing would be to block Webber from passing after he missed the chicane, with one move only of course.

It's generally considered you have to give up position if you gain or keep position by going off the track. If they weren't side by side and Kobayashi didn't lose out I think he would have been allowed keep it.

 

[Moot]

Not in the FIA rules.
That's why on the BBC commentary Brundle keeps going on about how the rules should change as the lead cars are gaining by not losing a place they definitely should have lost. But the rules permit it.
What can happen is before a race drivers are given a specific warning about a certain chicane saying they can only avoid it 3 times or get a penalty, but that rule is about gaining time by avoiding chicanes, if you make a mistake and avoid the chicane and lose time then it's ok. Perhaps during a race a stewards warning will be given to inform the driver they must not do a certain move again.
But like I said FIA rules allow you to stay ahead when you make a mistake and don't improve your lap time or take a place (gain an advantage).

 

[The Outlaw]

@Outlaw I think the overtaking attempt on Kobayashi was as fair as they come if Brundle, a person who has infinitely more knowledge than you do about racing, called the move as 'SUPERB'..

It wasn't what I would call fair, but it could have very well been a legitmate overtake in the steward's eyes...although their judgement and calls on things vary like the wind. Again, my focus has been more on the Webber/Alonso footage from 05 and the fact that you threw out insults about Alonso (being some cheat in that case) despite Mark's unfair, poorly executed overtake attempt.

Brundle and Coulthard would only be biased towards Hamilton and Button If at all.

I can't believe how naive you are for thinking that. Coulthard has had a rather lengthy working relationship with RB, and still has had a lot of interest in the team after his retirement. So why would he "only be biased torward Hamilton and Button, if at all" ?

He did not miss the apex (the rumble strip at the first right hander of the complex) by more than a car width, get your eyes checked, it was half a car width at best..

Are you talking about the Webber/Alonso incident? (which is what I've been talking about). The left side of Webbers car was a couple of cm's inside of the curbing. Again meaning he was ~ 2 meters inside the apex. Nowhere near 20-30cm.

You make illogical statements and you have a very poor understanding about the art of overtaking.

Whatever you say Dan...sorry my logic doesn't revolve around what commentators say in the heat of the moment. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the legitamacy and fairness of Mark's attempted overtake on Alonso.

 

[MarkWebber]

Poorly executed and unfair is just a fail comment, it was an ambitious, aggressive move that took Alonso by surprise, and it was executed accurately with no loss of control, which ultimately allowed Webber to take his first podium when he successfully passed him the following lap, If it was poorly executed he would have made contact with Alonso, or, Alonso would have had to make unnatural evasive manouvres to avoid contact.

It may have seemed like a 'dive-bomb' but Webber had a superior car, superior tires, thats why he eventually made the move stick.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Lasted the distance or kept enough life to hold off Alonso and Button? I think everyone accepted that Vettel would finish the race at least in 3rd (i.e. the tyres wouldn't wear to the canvas or puncture), but the question is whether he could have held off the superior grip Alonso and Button enjoyed. Or in other words, would the relative performance have become so great he would have struggled to hold them off?
We will never know, I think Alonso was looking like he was going to try something, he probably knew that a win for Fezza would be very important, much more than simply a podium.

Vettel still had the edge of being in front, which is pretty a big deal in Monaco. Getting there is one thing, getting passed is another. Especially in such a track as this.

It would create a much more interesting finish for the race, I agree.