2011 Formula One Grand Prix de Monaco

  • Thread starter Cap'n Jack
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God, I wish Montreal was this weekend so this merry-go-round ride would be over that much sooner. I seem to remember Canada being a crazy race last year. A repeat of last year's results would be nice, but I'll take anyone NOT named Vettel at this rate.
 
Matti_Dude
But in the braking zone you can see that Hamilton gets more than half way alongside when he realises that Maldonado isn't going to give him any room. So Lewis brakes harder and then cuts the corner yet there is still contact. I'm not saying what Lewis was did is right but it definately wasn't 100% his fault.
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Personally I think that Lewis just was just expecting too much for Maldonado to move over. He would never give up his space for someone who made that move as Hammy wasn't really anywhere in a strong position to overtake. If he had been in the Monaco track where that corner had that barrier where the corner is, I would bet that Hammy wouldn't have made that move in the first place!
 
Submerged
Personally I think that Lewis just was just expecting too much for Maldonado to move over. He would never give up his space for someone who made that move as Hammy wasn't really anywhere in a strong position to overtake. If he had been in the Monaco track where that corner had that barrier where the corner is, I would bet that Hammy wouldn't have made that move in the first place!
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First off this was the exact same move in the same race that Shumi and Lewis went through. With Shumi taking the same defensive line and giving room to Lewis. Pastor to the same route as Shumi and if you watch the videos he cut in too soon, a move that Lewis should have expected from a rookie driver. So part of the blame goes to Lewis for trying to make that type of move in that type of area on that type of driver. Now to say that wasn't a good area to overtake, if other people made passes there or defended passes cleanly there throughout the race, it comes down more so to Pastor but if you need the video evidence and photo evidence to show that I'll provide it to you. The fact of the matter is there were several incidences where Lewis was punished and others weren't and the same goes back to Sepang where he tries to break the slip stream and they call it overly defensive driving. So in this case Pastor wasn't driving defensive? Williams calls it a race incident and doesn't blame Lewis. Yet this is an avoidable wreck to the Stewarts...look at the evidence from this race and past judgments this year and think for yourself not what the race advisors spoon feed you.
 
Matti_Dude
Not neccessarily. Maldonado would have had to have lifted off the brake pedal then to get back infront the way that he did.
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Not necessarily. This video shows that Hamilton was always too far back to make the pass. The only reason Maldonado ran over the kerb is because of the contact with Hamilton.



There's no debating it whatsoever. It was Lewis' fault. End of story.

Here's an onboard with Lewis.


Submerged
Personally I think that Lewis just was just expecting too much for Maldonado to move over. He would never give up his space for someone who made that move as Hammy wasn't really anywhere in a strong position to overtake. If he had been in the Monaco track where that corner had that barrier where the corner is, I would bet that Hammy wouldn't have made that move in the first place!
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What's with people calling him "Hammy" all of a sudden? Really annoying.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
First off this was the exact same move in the same race that Shumi and Lewis went through. With Shumi taking the same defensive line and giving room to Lewis. Pastor to the same route as Shumi and if you watch the videos he cut in too soon, a move that Lewis should have expected from a rookie driver. So part of the blame goes to Lewis for trying to make that type of move in that type of area on that type of driver. Now to say that wasn't a good area to overtake, if other people made passes there or defended passes cleanly there throughout the race, it comes down more so to Pastor but if you need the video evidence and photo evidence to show that I'll provide it to you. The fact of the matter is there were several incidences where Lewis was punished and others weren't and the same goes back to Sepang where he tries to break the slip stream and they call it overly defensive driving. So in this case Pastor wasn't driving defensive? Williams calls it a race incident and doesn't blame Lewis. Yet this is an avoidable wreck to the Stewarts...look at the evidence from this race and past judgments this year and think for yourself not what the race advisors spoon feed you.
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Hamilton was on the inside, he jumped (another) apex and rode the rumble strip in to the corner and it's Pastor's fault to some degree because he was defending his position?Rookie or not, no one fighting for a points paying position is going to willingly give up their position just because some fool behind them is bearing on the edge, frustrated by his own feeble-minded racing technique. I can see that with my own two eyes and has nothing to do with what the Stewards decided. I knew beforehand he was going to get penalized, just as I knew he was going to be penalized for doing basically the exact same thing Di Resta did.

But wait, doesn't that automatically negate Hamilton's notion of the Stewards being "out to get him"? Surely if they were then Di Rest wouldn't have been penalized, only Hamilton. And it was by all means an avoidable incident, and didn't Hamilton wave off Schumacher even after having enough room to make a clean (almost colliding) overtake? He was full of himself last week. Simple as.
 
Terronium-12
Hamilton was on the inside, he jumped (another) apex and rode the rumble strip in to the corner and it's Pastor's fault to some degree because he was defending his position?Rookie or not, no one fighting for a points paying position is going to willingly give up their position just because some fool behind them is bearing on the edge, frustrated by his own feeble-minded racing technique. I can see that with my own two eyes and has nothing to do with what the Stewards decided. I knew beforehand he was going to get penalized, just as I knew he was going to be penalized for doing basically the exact same thing Di Resta did.

But wait, doesn't that automatically negate Hamilton's notion of the Stewards being "out to get him"? Surely if they were then Di Rest wouldn't have been penalized, only Hamilton. And it was by all means an avoidable incident, and didn't Hamilton wave off Schumacher even after having enough room to make a clean (almost colliding) overtake? He was full of himself last week. Simple as.
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And next you'll say that Massa had all the right to cut into Lewis as well even though he could have followed the same line as Webber and avoided contact with both drivers. Yet driving on the edge is some how stupid, making on the edge moves is something Senna did all the time same with Shumi, and is what won them WDCs, Formula 1 has become a waterdown version of what it use to be when people cant make the moves that keep people watching on the edge. I also recall myself saying that it was both Lewis's and Pastors fault.
Here is phot proof to show what I mean but either way someone will say otherwise. I too can see with both eyes that hamilton had been running the same line and thus trying to pass with DRS...

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/3797/hamiltonmonacoturn1b.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8572/hamiltonmonaco2011t1.jpg
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
And next you'll say that Massa had all the right to cut into Lewis as well even though he could have followed the same line as Webber and avoided contact with both drivers. Yet driving on the edge is some how stupid, making on the edge moves is something Senna did all the time same with Shumi, and is what won them WDCs, Formula 1 has become a waterdown version of what it use to be when people cant make the moves that keep people watching on the edge. I also recall myself saying that it was both Lewis's and Pastors fault.
Here is phot proof to show what I mean but either way someone will say otherwise. I too can see with both eyes that hamilton had been running the same line and thus trying to pass with DRS...

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/3797/hamiltonmonacoturn1b.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8572/hamiltonmonaco2011t1.jpg
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Yeah, and what happened to some of those people who made those "on the edge" moves? Remember last season at Suzuka, I think it was, with Schumacher and Barrichello?

Exactly. If being wreckless keeps you on the edge of your seat then I suggest you start watching something else because as you can see, the Stewards aren't having any of it. Especially when you consider all of the incidents that occurred without any third-party "assistance". Also, did you or did you not just void your entire stance on the Hamilton/Maldonado incident? :odd:
 
At the end of the day, you can't punish Maldonado for causing a collision whilst he was on the racing line. If Hamilton wasn't there, there would have been no collision. Hamilton's penalty was for causing an avoidable collision, which he could have avoided simply by braking earlier, like every other driver did when following another car throughout the race.

In the same way that you can't fault Hamilton for Massa's crash in the tunnel, it was Massa who was off-line and was behind Hamilton by the kink, so it was down to him to line up behind Hamilton.

On the other hand, his overtake on Schumacher did not cause a collision. But it was the same bad move and I can confidently tell you that if Schumacher turned in on him and went into the barrier, Hamilton would have got a drive through. They say that good racecraft also requires the ability to judge how the defending driver will react. An experienced guy like Schumacher or Button and you know they will give you space, but don't try it on rookies, ...or Massa ...or Webber.

The DRS at Monaco was a bad idea, they tried to force the overtaking spot on the drivers. But when as we saw, it is not an ideal overtaking place. People justify Hamilton's attempts into turn 1 by saying that it is the DRS zone, they were supposed to overtake there. Bad Move.
 
Seismica
At the end of the day, you can't punish Maldonado for causing a collision whilst he was on the racing line. If Hamilton wasn't there, there would have been no collision.
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Sure you can, being on the racing line doesn't mean you can ignore a car trying to overtake you.
You could compare this to Villenueve and Schumacher at Jerez 1997. Schumacher might have the racing line, but he has no right to turn into a car that is clearly in the superior position going into the corner - he must give room.

Of course, its very different at Monaco where the margins are smaller. But Maldonado had some chances to know Hamilton would be there - its clear before hand that Lewis is close, they have just been through a DRS zone and its possible for cars to try overtakes at turn 1. But personally I would still call it a racing incident because Maldonado still might not have thought Lewis would try the move and clearly didn't see him there.
I wouldn't blame Lewis in this incident...but as I have repeatedly said now, I felt the stewards penalised him because he had been super-aggressive all day and was getting involved in a lot of contact. More of a "stop being so optimistic and taking people out of the race" kind of penalty.
Really, if we were to give a proper penalty, it would go to Maldonado for not paying attention...but I believe "racing incident" suffices.
 
Terronium-12
Yeah, and what happened to some of those people who made those "on the edge" moves? Remember last season at Suzuka, I think it was, with Schumacher and Barrichello?

Exactly. If being wreckless keeps you on the edge of your seat then I suggest you start watching something else because as you can see, the Stewards aren't having any of it. Especially when you consider all of the incidents that occurred without any third-party "assistance". Also, did you or did you not just void your entire stance on the Hamilton/Maldonado incident? :odd:
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What was my stance? I'm pretty sure if you read my post I put part of the blame on Lewis for trying to make that move in that tight of an area on Pastor who is still a rookie driver and still needs time to improve. I think Hamilton should have waited a bit longer to be honest and I say this in my initial point maybe you just dislike hamilton so anyone that wants to stand up for the guy in the slightest is just a target for you to argue against. I'll agree with Ardius on this and I also say once again like TEAM WILLIAMS F1 tech director said this was a race incident!!!!!!! Both are as much to blame for the incident let them race. Also since it is a DRS zone Pastor should have realized that someone would try to pass him. Since common sense states that the DRS zones are where the passes are made or enabled.
 
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You still haven't answered me...what is my stance exactly that I voided? Cause the only feel that I get is that I stood up for Lewis in your eyes when in fact I said they were both to blame and I don't know you I'm just saying I guess you're one of those lewis haters possibly, but yet again I don't know you so I could be wrong :).
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
You still haven't answered me...what is my stance exactly that I voided?
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You've already made a mention of it here in this dissected quote I'm replying to. You're saying both Maldonado and Hamilton are to blame in your opinion; that's fine, I'm arguing the state of "how"?

How is it both of their faults when on Hamilton's behalf it was an avoidable incident? Instead of backing and overtaking later on, he decides to jump the curb (again) and collide with Pastor. As I've been arguing...why should Pastor has fell back, effectively losing a points paying position, to someone who was quite frankly driving recklessly? I'm not saying (nor have I ever implied) that it couldn't be chalked up to a rookies mistake on Pastor's behalf all I've ever argued is why should he give up a position to someone who's bearing on edge for absolutely no reason?

Cause the only feel that I get is that I stood up for Lewis in your eyes when in fact I said they were both to blame...
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Where'd you get that notion? I'd be calling Webber just as big of an idiot had he performed just as much of a jackass as Lewis did. I find no entertainment in someone dive-bombing down tight corners just to make a really desperate overtake. What makes it all worse is even after his "apology" he still doesn't assume any blame.

...and I don't know you I'm just saying I guess you're one of those lewis haters possibly, but yet again I don't know you so I could be wrong :).
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I'm not, and you most certainly are.
 
My gosh you tell me to look with my eyes, he only jumped the curb because he saw that gap to pass closed up as Pastor cut in a bit too soon and thus he had no room but to go over the curb. IT WAS A DRS ZONE, that means that he had the right to make a pass since it was a pass oppurtunity zone. Pastor once agian should have been aware that he was in the DRS zone so someone would challenge him for said position. It's not like Hamilton planned out "oh yeah I'll jump the curb take out the slower williams, yeah that's what I'll do" uh no I think he just was trying way to hard to make a bad weekend good, but not to the point where he wanted to put drivers at high risk. On another note I know I was wrong hence why I just didn't out right say yeah you hate Lewis, I knew for sure I was wrong, sorry for upsetting you :grumpy:. Anyways good talk!
 
F1 fan
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Was that at all smart on Webber's behalf?

And what is with these people gesturing when they're the ones making these asinine overtakes in the tightest corners; where else could Kobayashi have gone? It was either crash into Mark, or cut the chicane -- he obviously chose to cut as he really had no other choice. I don't know...maybe it's because I see Monaco as a track where there's really no opportune moment to overtake; every corner has a barrier that's begging for someone to crash into it.
 
I don't get those hand gestures either. In the case above, it's either Webber was try to say ''I'm sorry'' or ''What is wrong with you? You almost made me crashed!''...
 
InvincibleM5
I don't get those hand gestures either. In the case above, it's either Webber was try to say ''I'm sorry'' or ''What is wrong with you? You almost made me crashed!''...
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If it's the latter then he's a jackass too. Although I do have to admire someone who can gesture and then continue to turn in to a corner without batting an eyelid. :lol:

I've watched it at least four times now and it looks like he, like Hamilton, made that 'do or die' overtake. He couldn't wait until the main straight?
 
The difference being how far alongside Kobayashi Webber was. Hamilton made a massive dive from way too far back. Kobayashi tried to brake late and it ended up being a little too late and he probably would have missed the chicane anyway. I agree on those stupid hand gestures especially Hamiltons as he passed Schumacher that was the move of a true jackass.
 
Hand gesture from Mark?, oh now I see it, it was probably a, 'hey you better slow down and give me the position or I'll punch you in the face after the race' gesture, not a 'you almost crashed into me gesture'. Maybe it wasn't a gesture but a way of rotating the wheel as fast as possible, but this is highly unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there anyway. In any case, it was a split second decision to raise his hand, because after all, he made a great pass and yet Kobayashi is still in front of him, instantly you would be pissed off.

Still brings me to Webber V Alonso '05 when Webber got his first ever podium, Alonso cut the chicane and didn't give the place back immediately unlike Kobayashi, Webber had to wait until the next lap to pass him at the same place, Alonso again cut the chicane but his exit speed was compromised and Webber was able to pass him at the fast left, some drivers just don't know when to give it up when they're lost or when they've blatantly cheated, Alonso is one of them.

 
LMSCorvetteGT2
IT WAS A DRS ZONE, that means that he had the right to make a pass since it was a pass oppurtunity zone.
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Definitely, furthermore as Centura said the DRS was disabled that lap after the restart. Even if they're both in a DRS zone, it doesn't mean that you can overtake every single lap or the man in front have to give a place to the person behind every single lap. Maldonado also had the right to block Hamilton or do whatever sensible to protect his position.
 

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