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Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by astrosdude91, Oct 31, 2012.
Is there a sense of anti-incumbency in all this Vettel criticism?
At least redirect your e-hate to Red Bull instead of Vettel.
Where did you get that we hate Vettel ?
Telling he have done a mistake or is immature doesnt mean we hate him. At least I dont.
So, do we think Williams will catch Force India? Not as close as Sauber is to Mercedes and they don't have the pace advantage, but its possible.
Here I'm still wondering why there has been so much Alonso hype latelly, IMO he still lacks in some areas like race pace(I don't think Ferraris are that out of pace either, Massa has been competitive in some occassions through the season, so it's his lack of pace is not down to his car).
Not sure what to make from Saturday's results(could not see the race), is nice to see Kimi winning(and is hugely entertaining to see him on the post race conference), impressive pace by Vettel(from 24th to 3rd, you should have something than a good car to acomplish that), and some good pace by Alonso(I guess).
All things given, I still think that Vettel will win the WDC(not Vettel fanboy, actually more of a Button fanboy), his race pace has been pretty damn good over the last few races. I honestly expected him to win this race, and even secure this year's title, I guess that will have to wait until Brazil.
Eitherway, is shaping up to be an exciting end of season.
Thing is without being an expert (out of the very few in the world. Most racing commentators aren't) and without the telemetry we cannot tell if he is a good or a bad driver, but people praise him like he was Ayrton Senna.
^^^I think you are just a Force India hater, shame on you for placing such a question, I can't believe how biased some people can be on the internet!
I do believe that the current end-of-season Sauber, Mercedes, FI and Williams teams are very evenly matched. So, considering ...
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Blue"]5 Mercedes 136
6 Sauber 124[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]7 Force India 95
8 Williams 73[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
I'll start with the blue pairing, to say that:
- Mercedes has probably the strongest lineup of drivers, but probably has the worst car of them all (and no luck left, both in MSC and NR).
- Best car is probably the Sauber, but Perez and KK just haven't been able to translate that entirely into points.
My bet? Sauber will take that 5th spot. Bar any more brain fades from their drivers.
As for the green pairing, again I think Williams has currently the best car, but FI has probably two consistent drivers, while Williams has only one consistent racer (Senna) and one great qualifier (Maldonado). This one's been improving his own racecraft though, so ...
I think WIilliams will get that 7th place too.
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Blue"]5 Mercedes 136
6 Sauber 124[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]7 Force India 95
8 Williams 73[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
It seems we agree for once Famine!
(i'm an Alonso fanboy tough, so that helps a little)
I'm just a little bit tired of the same old Vettel debate. Its clear he is one of the best drivers out there, even one of the "greats" but this really wasn't a stellar weekend for him. He benefitted a lot from the safety cars - one lending itself to the other - and from others' misfortune.
Thats not to say (as Famine said) that there is anything wrong with being lucky, but equally it puts things in perspective.
Saying Vettel went from 24th to 3rd sounds impressive. Saying Vettel went from 24th to 3rd after a major turn 1 accident, 7 retirements and 2 safety cars doesn't sound quite so impressive. Thats leaving out the place he gained from De La Rosa, the penalty for Perez, the fact the Toro Rossos and Webber were never going to block his progress and that 6 of the cars have no chance of keeping him behind.
And to just to be fair - Button's drive at Canada was equally spoiled a little bit by quite a bit of luck as well as some-not-so-stellar driving running into both Hamilton and Alonso. He also had a nice "move" running past Vettel on the last lap...I guess the difference between the two is that Button is more well-liked and that it all happened on the last lap for victory.
I do feel that Vettel gets a bit of a hard time with a lot of people on here and elsewhere. But then again you can see why sometimes with his attitude on track.
Hamilton, Raikkonen and Alonso also get or had a tough time from the fans too though for similar reasons - so even then I'm not sure its unfair on Vettel.
The only reason people don't "hate" (not really the correct word) Button is he is just a more likable person generally and drives extremely cleanly. I don't think there is a bad thing really you can say about him except for his lack of pace and puzzling down-times.
Raikkonen has a quite a bit of fan fare lately also due to personality. But this has also gone against him in the past. Sometimes it can appear he is being too lazy - its both his strength and weakness.
Anyway, back to the really interesting stuff:
I think Force India are safe for 7th as long as they aren't involved in any more accidents. Hulkenburg has been on fire this second half and Maldonado and Senna (or Williams as a team) have been too inconsistent in general.
Give me one sentence when you don't mention or imply anything about Alonso and that's when people will actually take you seriously
I think Sauber could overtake the Mercs if Mercedes continues to have no luck and out-of-points finishes and DNFs.
Force India seem consistent, I don't think Williams could beat them by the end of the season.
Alonso is a very good driver but this thread is full of Vettel haters like you
and please put me in your ignore list!I already did for you..............
I don't hate Vettel. I'm just annoyed by his luck at this race. Good on him for getting 24th to 3rd, but the errors he made don't make me think any higher of him.
Blind Vettel fanboys like you
If you're annoyed by this, then this is how I feel every time you make an ignorant post.
That, and at points he was a clear 4 seconds a lap quicker than anyone else on the circuit, even on the same tyres. He's certainly easier to like, but even considering the bumps (the Hamilton one I seem to recall being largely Hamilton's fault?) his drive was pretty staggering.
I don't want to turn this into a "Woop, go Button!" post but his driving last year was pretty special - its just a pity he's not been as quick this year. Part of me wonders whether it's a car thing, as last year McLaren's roles were pretty much reversed.
And to the earlier post asking, no, there's no anti-incumbency with the Vettel criticism. I'd argue it's no less fair to criticise him than any other driver when they make mistakes.
A great analysis of this GP's events, with a particular focus on Vettel's race:
disclaimer: I'm a Caracciola fan
Very hard to make the argument that it isn't the car, considering Massa lags Alonso by a good 5/10ths most of the time.
Alonso has history. He's shown the ability (since his Renault days) of throwing out an amazing qualifying lap and of driving incredible defense.
Okay, so maybe that's part car, but he went to McLaren and up against Hamilton, who is now acknowledged as being an incredible qualifier, and it was an absolute dead heat. He was frustrated, emotional, angry, and he still managed results.
He went back to Renault, who had a dog of a car when he left, and helped bring them back up into slight contention, then left for Ferrari. At Ferrari, he has consistently been challenging for qualifying positions several places higher than Massa, who can only get close to him when he's comfortable with the car (much like Button with Hamilton).
Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are three of the guys on the grid that we are absolutely sure can eke 11/10ths out of their respective cars. In MotoGP we'd call them "wizards", and that fits. But there's only so much a "wizard" can do. Alonso has been hampered this season by the car's utter lack of race end pace. The Ferrari fell off the cliff more often than the Red Bull or the McLaren at the end of a close fight. Lately, it seems he's been racing his nuts off. Imagine pushing 10/10ths all race long, then finding a little extra pace to close up on the race leader in the closing laps on knackered tires.
I don't know about Vettel, because we've never seen him in anything but a Red Bull or a Torro Rosso, but guys like Hammy and Alonso seem to be able to adapt to bad cars better than others. Alonso was noted for his "violent turn-in" during his time at Renault. A spectacular style that was very unorthodox. That didn't suit the McLaren, so he adapted his style and kept at the sharp end. Then he went to Ferrari. For the past two years, it has seemed like an unstable car. He adapted, and he's put it on nearly even footing with the undeniably superior Red Bull and McLaren competition.
Who knows how much of Ferrari's results are due to the car? But given his history, I'd say Fernando has earned his reputation as a gifted, if churlish, prima donna-ish and tempermental driver.
If you don't have anything to say except to accuse other GTP members of being "fanboys", then don't say anything.
The word "fanboy" is already worth an instant infraction in the GT5 subforum because of bickering over Forza. We don't want to see similar happen here.
Argue the points. Period.
Honestly, as much as luck greatly contributed to Vettel's storming drive, you still have to admit, 24th to 3rd is quite a feat he has achieved, especially after all the talk of Vettel 'not being able to race up the order'.
Besides, it's not like Button was fantastically 'clean' on his way from dead last to 1st in Canada was he? In order to make so many overtakes in such a short span of time, one is bound to be a little scrappy IMO.
One still needs to know how to make great use of the luck given to make up places, otherwise it's pointless. And I think Vettel has done very well in that respect, especially under those circumstances, where anything minute could've easily spoiled his race.
There's no denying Alonso has done a great job in maximising the F2012 (especially against the resurgent Vettel), but some people still seem to be over-praising about Alonso like as if he was still dragging the same c*** F2012 that barely made Q3 in Australia.
I'd say it's a great team effort of Alonso, a great driver + an established team with plenty of resources for good development, that allowed Alonso to be still fighting for the championship. It isn't down to 'only Alonso' that they're actually able to make it thus far, as some people seem to be hyping.
You're missing the point a lot of people have tried to make about Vettel's drive. He started 24th and finished 3rd, but he didn't really fight his way up to 3rd. Safety cars, retirements, penalties, and Grosjean did most of it all for him.
Yes I know, but you still need to be actually adept at making the most of these opportunities to make up places...
It is pointless if he had lets just say, cracked under pressure and spun out, or collided with another driver in the chaotic race.
You still have to give credit to him, considering that he actually managed to keep out of trouble, and make use of the chaos to gain the places.
Luck may have played a huge part, no denying that, but you still need to be capable of making use of these lucky opportunities to actually make up places in the first place...
You can't just completely dismiss Vettel's drive just because of some flaws, everyone's bound to make mistakes, and I think he has been hugely entertaining to watch, despite some of the mistakes he has made.
Again with this... First safety car, from 12th to 20th. Second safety car, from 4th to 4th. Yes, it wiped out a 15 second gap to Button, but it is hardly like he jumped up significantly through the order like you seem to believe. And Grosjean wasn't at fault for that incident.
Yes, it was obvious who was responsible.
Can't believe Perez just dived for the apex just like that after running off the track, what has got into his head since his Mclaren deal, I don't know...
A few things spring to mind:
1) He couldn't see Grosjean. The sides of a car are quite high, and the driver's head is held in place by the HANS device and bodywork around the cockpit, so he doesn't get to move around. Grosjean could have been in his blindspot.
2) He was running out of room. There is no real run-off (if any at all) at that next corner, and Perez may have felt that he didn't have time to slow down befor he hit the wall; therefore, rejoining the circuit at speed was the only option, but the problem was that while he was going too fast to stop in time, he wasn't going fast enough to beat Grosjean.
Honestly, I think people are making far too much of this "Perez has nosedived since signing for McLaren" thing. He slipped up in Japan, but if he hadn't signed for McLaren, nothing would be made of it. He had a dull race in Korea, but I believe he took some damage early on. He got caught in the crossfire in India, and was forced out with damage after Ricciardo tagged him. And while the thing in Abu Dhabi was silly, it's been the only genuinely-silly mistake.
I wasn't the first one who has used the word "fanboy" in this topic!but I'm sorry for that and I won't use it again!
Let's say Alonso fans?blinded Alonso fans?
but he won't get it,or better,he don't want to admitt it
Why don't we also say Vettel fans?biased Vettel fans?
You still haven't been able to prove that you are capable of thinking about anything except Alonso.
Let's just say that nobody has actually pointed to Alonso and said: "If he were driving that car." and leave it at that. If you want to debate people who are saying Vettel didn't drive great, fine.
Just don't call them names. Argue the point, not the man.
I agree that Vettel drove a fine second half of the race. The main criticism of people here is that his first half of the race was garbage. Truthfully, it was. But this is why I gave a drive-of-the-day to Vettel. Most people, once strung with a run of rotten luck and sloppy driving, would simply continue on driving badly. Vettel didn't. He put his head down and drove hard and fast to claim that podium. He had a lot of luck, but he certainly pulled it together at the end.
Personally, I think Kimi (goes without saying) & Fernando had the drives of the day. Alonso got that wretched Ferrari to P2 & kept it there. No mean feat, that. Seb was without doubt incredibly lucky. Fernandos face on the podium spoke volumes! Looks like it's gonna be no. 3 for Vettel.
Not a huge fan, but really felt for Lewis. Kimi re-wrote the book on awesomeness with his comments this race. And Webber clearly took a triple dose of stupid pills for the day.
I'd love to see what Alonso, Lewis, Seb & Kimi would do in the same car...
He has, but on the last three points I'd also say he's improved hugely since joining Ferrari. Age? Experience? Who knows, but this year he's remained pretty calm, seems to complain a whole lot less than many other drivers at the sharp end, and has even seemed in pretty good humour most of the season.
That's also why I've gained a lot of respect for Alonso recently. He's gone from the petty cry-baby he was at McLaren to a well-rounded guy both on and off the track. I despised him for his attitude at McLaren, but in the last few years he's earned a lot of respect from me.
Agreed. He obviously still has pace - he's just made a few daft errors in the last few GPs.
And at McLaren he'll be paired with Button - sticking a young gun with an experienced driver often weans out a few of their bad habits and allows their speed to flourish. I'm looking forward to seeing how Perez does at McLaren.
I'm saying this because he has always been making these type of 'genuinely-silly' mistakes at every race since signing with Mclaren. He hasn't been scoring points ever since then, and he really needs to clear whatever problems he has quickly.
There's no room for mistakes in F1... Even when one's doing a solid job, he can still be easily under threat of losing themselves in the harsh competition, especially with even minor problems being highlighted by the media, and some spectators that aren't too supportive, criticising these drivers' mistakes to no end in the internet... Even Vettel, who's had a storming drive from dead last to 3rd (with quite a bit of luck, but nevertheless still commendable), is still being criticised for scraps he made here and there.
I'm not saying that Perez is mediocre or whatever, he has great potential to be future champion material, no denying that, but he's seriously starting to become like the old Grosjean at Spa and Suzuka, consistently making unintentional, but still mistakes that endanger other drivers. This needs to stop, because at this rate, he has the potential to spark of more dangerous incidents.
Besides, the other 20 over drivers, now including Maldonado and Grosjean, has been able to get over these so called problems you stated, by doing something called taking precautions.
Perez has been able to do that previously, by avoiding trouble when making storming drives to podiums from outside the top 10. I don't see how he should be having these problems really, hopefully he can resolve this issue soon.
Even Kobayashi has been able to keep it clean over at Japan to score his first podium and Abu Dhabi to score strong points at 6th place, which is great to see, considering his previous problems. Good to see Kobayashi steadily improving, hopefully he can find a seat for next season, he really deserves one IMO.
I think maybe Perez has been told by McLaren, that now they've signed him, they'll be studying his performance closely for the rest of the season until he joins them, (not that it will affect the signing or his drive with them for next year.. more of a research/car development kind of thing), but maybe he's feeling the need to further impress the team, and maybe he's just been trying too hard sometimes....
Regardless, i think he'll do a great job at McLaren next year.