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Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by astrosdude91, Nov 13, 2012.
I knew I wouldn't be the only one to spot that.
No. It's not over until it's over.
The alternator issue is back for Renault* and the weather at Interlagos can always create havoc.
*By the way, Magneti Marelli manufacture the alternators, not Renault.
Maybe for some people. I myself don't care too much about what drivers say or how they behave. They are all very selfish and arrogant. You have to be to be successful. That is the way it has always been. When Alonso was a young promising driver, he was an ahole. Lets not forget some of the stupid things Hamilton has done throughout his career. Same case goes for Vettel. I've been watching F1 for too long to follow this crap. It baffles me how some people follow drivers so closely. In my opinion, there should not even be a driver's title. I follow teams.
Drivers come and go. They are just like ever other member of the team. Yes some have amazing talents and do great things but if it was not for the guys in the pits they would be nothing. You think Hamilton and Vettel were not being helped by their engineers throughout their battle? Asking them what they could do to make them gain a few tenths on the other? If you think that it was up to the guys in the car today, you are naive.
Many say this driver is immature, that driver is a . You are the immature one if that is the only thing that you pay attention too.
Kimi Raikkonen, the only person this season to complete every single racing lap.
One of the best times of my life. I'm a huge Hamilton fan, there with my buddy Brad who's just as much a fan, both of us rocking H.A.M hats 8D it was such a freaking amazing result for me, everything was worth it, can't thank people enough. Austin was super amazing itself, blew every one away.
I have no voice now after screaming for Hamilton to push for the most part. I was in turn 19 soaking in the epic. Highly highly recommend heading to Austin for this, you'll not be disappointed my friends.
We didn't know if Lewis would pull it off especially after he started to fall behind more and more at the top of their first stint. Then he just kept doing a bit better than Vettel in S1 but matching for the most part in the other sectors which Seb was quick though, but he kept having faster laps, purple purple royal ownage in fact. That pass, Buttonms many battles, Kimi's relentless awesome defense, getting to witness one of Alonso's famous super starts, seeing Perez climb his way up, the AMAZING close pass Senna and Maldanado did in T1, the crazy fight for P8. The only real drawback for me was Mark's retirement (I screamed out, "wrong car!"), he crossed by on the moped right in front of us. But the cowboy hats made up for any sadness xD.
Cheers guys, can't wait for next year, also, next week! Hoping Vettel's alternator busts.
Actually yes, cause the Brazil race hasn't happened so he has completed them all. Here's to hoping he does it and this little talk didn't jinx it.
I have to say I'm extremely impressed with Hulkenburg and Ricciardo's performances the 2nd half of this season - consistently there each race, extracting the maximum each race. Both are qualifying very well (well a bit of bad one for Ricciardo this time but he made up for it in the race), both make their strategies work and both are pulling some impressive, clean and intelligent overtakes and defensive moves. Most importantly they making their teammates look very ordinary.
I have to agree with the consensus thats developing among the fans on the internet that McLaren have missed out taking Perez over Hulk. Ricciardo has to be a sure thing for Red Bull at some point.
Perez has of course suffered at Sauber's hand but I still feel Hulk is a much more balanced and complete driver. I'm still looking forward to Perez at Macca next year and I'm glad McLaren are taking a punt on a exciting young driver.
But I just hope Hulk doesn't get wasted in the midfield.
Really enjoyed this race, and happy that Hamilton kicked Vettel's butt after all the message board crap about how much faster Vettel was in practice.
I had caught that.
If you want to ignore the drivers and root for teams, fine. To each his own.
I actually care about the all of racing aspects and the drivers still happen to be a very important one.
I can actually see (and posted about) both their acting that fuels both fanboys and haters alike, and recognize driving skills, speed and results.
It's fascinating for me to see how a driver evolves, like Alonso and Hamilton did, even Pastor lately, and for me Vettel isn't 'growing up'. Why on earth shouldn't we discuss that, the single most important 'part' in a car?
If you think the driver doesn't influence the result of a race, you're the one being naive IMO. He's part of a big team but he is the single biggest part of it.
Agree with this, I guess we should eliminate all variables that is what some of us would call "racing" so that the most optimum outcome is achieved. Then certain people wont have to make non-sense claims, like Sebastian "how dare the rules hinder me from a victory"
Also F1 Fan, I'm curious if Vettel was as good as you claim, surely going on the charge and closing up on Hamilton shouldn't have been to hard. I mean if he kept Lewis at bay all that time...
Turning that around, if Hamilton is as good as you want to see him be, why did it take 40+ laps to pass an allegedly slower driver? Not to mention that when it finally happened it happened on a DRS zone in a car with more power and a higher top speed. You might also want to notice that Vettel stayed with Hamilton for the rest of the race, in a car with less power and a lower top speed, on a track with two very long straights that both are preceded by hairpins.
As you all know, Webber suffered an alternator failure. Renault/Magneti Marelli think the issue is with the slow speed corners, so I thought I would compare COTA with Interlagos.
Remember, it's pole laps, so apex speed is even slower in the race.
In 2011, Pirelli brought Soft and Medium. In 2012, they are bringing Medium and Hard, but it should be pretty much the same because they are softer this year.
Brazilian Grand Prix - 2011 - 71 Laps
Vettel's Pole Lap - Apex Speed of Slow Corners
Turn 01: 111 KM/H - 2nd Gear
Turn 04: 156 KM/H - 3rd Gear
Turn 08: 089 KM/H - 2nd Gear
Turn 09: 103 KM/H - 2nd Gear
Turn 10: 080 KM/H - 2nd Gear
Turn 12: 119 KM/H - 2nd Gear
United States Grand Prix - 2012 - 56 Laps
Vettel's Pole Lap - Apex Speed of Slow Corners
Turn 01: 084 KM/H - 2nd Gear
Turn 08: 121 KM/H - 3rd Gear
Turn 11: 080 KM/H - 2nd Gear
Turn 12: 086 KM/H - 2nd Gear
Turn 13: 086 KM/H - 2nd Gear
Turn 15: 077 KM/H - 2nd Gear
Turn 20: 097 KM/H - 2nd Gear
I'm still thinking about, how Alonso could still be in the lead, if Grosjean didn't take him out in Japan. But then again, Vettel has had his share of bad luck through out the year. Thankfully, he didn't win, and Alonso minimised the damage as much as he could, which makes the Brazil race more exciting to race.
Still pretty upset about Webber's KERS isssue, again!
Vettel sound like was was going to cry also. "He passed me with DRS" I don't think that Hamilton is the only one using it. The Renault qualified a lot quicker and was faster in the corners and exited the corners better also. It was a balanced race and Hamilton prevailed.
I agree with you, I'm not promoting one over the other. The crying or excuses for drivers it what prompted me. Either way there is a case, and I would say they were possibly even. But you seemed to skim over my point due to the fact you bring up DRS again when that is my main point. Yes he used DRS, is that an issue? It's part of the regulation, it is a legitimate way of racing...was there a gentleman's agreement between Hamilton and Vettel before the race about not using it? If not then what is the issue. It is part of racing.
Also it is claimed that the RBR is slower, yet time and time again even in the straights it has done an amazing job of maintaining speed with the faster merc engine cars. So my question now is, do you or anyone else have updated power bands to prove this. I mean it is F1 teams do tend to downplay themselves. But either way you did make a fine point.
I did the work for you.
Vettel was faster than Hamilton as far as speed goes in two of the three sector, with the third being Hamilton by .1 .
Here I even have a link.http://188.8.131.52/fia-f1/f1-2012/f1-2012-19/Race%20Maximum%20Speeds.pdf
The incident at Japan wasn't Grosjean's fault. The Lotus that Alonso was side by side with was Raikkonen. And a good portion of the blame must go to Alonso for that incident if you watch it back.
Spa however, is a different story. Alonso missed out massively there.
In terms of who had the faster car out of Vettel and Hamilton, i'd say they were evenly matched. The Mclaren did have a slight advantage on the straight without DRS, but that was barely a tenth difference. The Mclaren looked strongest of the pack in sector 1, but the traction of the Red Bull (Possible to do with shorter gear ratios?) in sector 3 proved better than the Mclaren.
As for the personal driving styles, I believe that Hamilton and Vettel were taking better lines in sector 1 and 3 respectively. In sector 1 Vettel always ran wider through some of the turns which was slower but less damaging to the tyres. In sector 3 Hamilton was never quite as fast as Vettel, especially turn 13 where somehow Vettel was able to get on the power very early, probably by simply using more steering lock and running wide for the turn 14 kink. Turn 19 aswell, Vettel was hitting his apex across the kerb every lap, but Hamilton was always a little bit sloppier through there.
Throughout the race I don't think there was more than 2.6 seconds between the two of them, besides the pitstop phase. There was really nothing between them. The Mclaren was better on the harder tyre when it was new, which allowed Hamilton to close Vettel until he was in the DRS zone. Then after many laps of being around ~0.8 seconds behind, a backmarker held Vettel up in sector 1 where the Mclaren was already quicker, meaning the pass was inevitable. Vettel was still consistently quicker in sector 3, but he could never pass because the Mclaren always pulled out the gap in sector 1 which meant that Vettel could never get the DRS because he was always around ~1.2 seconds adrift in the zone, but towards the end of sector 3 he was only 0.8-1.0 second adrift.
In short, Both cars and drivers were evenly matched over the whole lap, the Red Bull possibly faster due to it's great advantage in sector 3. But the advantage Mclaren had in sector 1 as opposed to sector 3 meant that they were ideally placed both to get in the DRS zone and keep Vettel out of the 1 second window after the pass. That is how Mclaren won; by being faster in the parts of the lap where they needed to get close to the car infront, even if it meant sacrificing a bit of laptime in sector 3.
They were very closely matched today, Hamilton said he just kept out of the dirty air and waited for his chance. Webber was unlucky, apparently it's the first mechanical failure that Webber has had which has led to his retirement in over 50 races.
What would Vettel have done? Pushed the KERS button harder than Hamilton? because you could clearly see there wasn't much in it down the straights. Often the best car is the best handling not the fastest in a straight line.
No of course the driver influences the race. I just dislike when they get all the attention. They are part of the team and they work in unison to get the best performance out of the car. But any driver would be nothing without the support of their team. (which is why most teams have a number 1 driver and a number 2 driver).The guy that is number one knows he has to get full attention of the team to succeed. That's why red bull famously gave Vettel the better wing in 2010. But that has been happening since the start of Formula one. In the end, it's just part of the overall strategy to win the tittle.
I still do massively respect what the driver do but in my opinion, they should not be the only topic of discussion as they quite often are.
Seriously? Wow. I guess that's why his KERS break all the time instead.
EDIT: Interesting interview with Ron Dennis: http://youtu.be/zLOt_rSPuBo
Ben Edwards has mentioned it a few times in recent races, his KERS problems certainly make up for the lack of mechanical retirements he's had.
Can't use the word "definitely" when comparing cars in F1. It's possible the HRT is the fastest car but the driver's aren't good enough to extract the performance. It's possible the Red Bull is the worst car but has the best drivers. Both very unlikely scenarios, but the fact that you can't prove anything renders the term "definitely" to be inappropriate in the F1 car comparison lexicon.
Your assessment is your opinion, nothing more.
Looks like its gonna rain in Sao Paulo next weekend...
Does anybody else have the feeling that Ferrari might have palnned the final run of their car development so that they will be strong at Interlagos?
Highly doubt it.
The annoying thing is I tried posting it off the app earlier band I remembered the 'so far'.
And when I eventually posted it I forgot it..
I use to think Vettel was a OK guy, he changed my mine today...
The whining, O' my god, the whining.
Lets get it Alonso
Found this, pretty cool shot.
Damn, it's going to be hard to adjust to seeing Lewis flying Mercedes colours next year..
Alonso has had his moments too. But Vettel's whining cracks me up, because he sounds like an angry teenager over the radio. I still have the "what is he doing? He's stopping all the time" bit replaying in my head.