2012 Japanese Grand Prix

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I think Perez could get there or close eventually. I wouldn't be surprised to see him beat Button next season.

 

[Ardius]

I'm not a Kobash hater, I like him very much, but just because his die hard fans can make abstract arguments as to why he is great, we have to look at the facts,

Ok...so why do you then use abstract arguments such as:

Ok, I'm sorry but you cannot say that Kamui Kobayashi is as good of a driver as Perez. He just isn't...

...and the facts show Sergio being better in pretty much every way, with less experience to boot.

So where are these facts you speak of? All you've given is oh wait.."abstract arguments".

Whereas I give facts such as:

I seem to remember KK being right with him at Australia 2011 and one race that has always stuck in my mind was the 2010 European GP at Valencia - where KK managed his tyres well into the race and actually matched the race leaders pace and kept Button at bay with tyres that he had driven most of the race on! Then he went and put the soft tyres on at the end of the race and stormed past Buemi and Alonso on the last lap.

In fact, the video above from the 2010 Japanese GP was also a race where he had a longer stint than everyone else and put the soft tyres on at the end and stormed past everyone.

Sure thats only a few examples. But where are yours? Define how "Perez is better in almost every way"? Maybe with evidence?

Show me why Perez is better and try to convince me. Don't tell me. Since when has simply saying "you're wrong" ever convinced anyone?

 

[Seismica]

I think that's a bit much, quick when on the right strategy but as good as Alonso in only his second year? He would probably have won a race or two by now if he was. I don't think the Sauber is that much is slower than a Ferrari.

Three podiums, and the season isn't over yet. Alonso only got 3 podiums in the 2003 season, and he arguably had a more competitive car relative to the field (Finished 4th in the constructor's standings compared to Sauber's 6th so far this year - and the Williams is arguably more competitive aswell even though they are behind).

That statement of mine was a little controversial, but I stand by it. I'll probably put my money where my mouth is and put a bet on Perez winning the championship next season. I think i'll do that.

 

[Goshin2568]

Ok...so why do you then use abstract arguments such as:



So where are these facts you speak of? All you've given is oh wait.."abstract arguments".

Whereas I give facts such as:



Sure thats only a few examples. But where are yours? Define how "Perez is better in almost every way"? Maybe with evidence?

Show me why Perez is better and try to convince me. Don't tell me. Since when has simply saying "you're wrong" ever convinced anyone?

I gave facts, and not abstract and debatable ones. Talking details about how Sauber's setup and strategy works is abstract. You can use that for one race, fine. But Sergio has been better on tires pretty much every race for almost two years now, and you can't sway me by gibbering on about strategies. Sauber wouldn't give Kamui the short end of the stick for two years straight. Sergio is doing something better, and anyone can tell that he is just better on tire wear.

Secondly, here's some facts:

1. Sergio has almost double the points of Kobayashi right now.
2. Sergio has more points right now than Kobayashi has had in 2010 and 2011 combined.
3. Last year, as a rookie, Sergio outqualified Kobayashi 10-7.
4. Sergio, with a year less experience, has singed with a Tier 1 team, while, in all likelyhood, Kobayashi will not.
5. Racing the same number of races, one year apart, Sergio Perez finished 2nd in GP2, while Kobayashi finished 16th.

Who, with that knowledge, could possibly argue that Kobayashi is the better driver? Again Perez is clearly better.

 

[Patrick]

I'll be watching this live for once. On a 70 inch TV!

 

[CinnamonOD]

I'll be watching this live for once. On a 70 inch TV!

Is that necessary? , I have a 32 inch TV and I think it is very big

 

[zippy_the_cat]

Is that necessary? , I have a 32 inch TV and I think it is very big

Depends on one's view of necessary. Not to mention the size of one's wallet.

Back on topic, watching FP2, Suzuka is one unforgiving track. Singapore caught out the mediocre, this one catches out everybody. No room for error whatsoever.

The Speed broadcast was rather sleepy until they started talking about Lauda's role at Merc. Lots of disapproving tongue-clucking ensued.

 

[Jiggins]

Nice to see Mark up the top of FP2 👍

 

[niky]

The Speed broadcast was rather sleepy until they started talking about Lauda's role at Merc. Lots of disapproving tongue-clucking ensued.

Started talking in Predator lingo, or Klingon?

-

The Merc garage is going to get a whole lot Lauda next season.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

Started talking in Predator lingo, or Klingon?

-

The Merc garage is going to get a whole lot Lauda next season.

Klingon would probably have been more appropriate for the sentiments expressed.

They see Lauda as a spy in the team for the Merc board -- and think that'll work out as well as his Jag stint.

 

[MUSC4EVER]

Is there a double DRS zone for the race?..im thinking theres one on the main straight and on the back straight

 

[Peasantslayer]

Is there a double DRS zone for the race?..im thinking theres one on the main straight and on the back straight

It looks like there is just one, the detection point is between 130R and the final chicane and it can be activated on the main straight.

http://www.formula1.com/races/in_detail/japan_878/

 

[MUSC4EVER]

Hmm ok.. i thought there was two..

 

[Peasantslayer]

Hmm ok.. i thought there was two..

It might have been but it looks like just the one this year.

 

[Ardius]

I gave facts, and not abstract and debatable ones. Talking details about how Sauber's setup and strategy works is abstract. You can use that for one race, fine. But Sergio has been better on tires pretty much every race for almost two years now, and you can't sway me by gibbering on about strategies. Sauber wouldn't give Kamui the short end of the stick for two years straight. Sergio is doing something better, and anyone can tell that he is just better on tire wear.

Secondly, here's some facts:

1. Sergio has almost double the points of Kobayashi right now.
2. Sergio has more points right now than Kobayashi has had in 2010 and 2011 combined.
3. Last year, as a rookie, Sergio outqualified Kobayashi 10-7.
4. Sergio, with a year less experience, has singed with a Tier 1 team, while, in all likelyhood, Kobayashi will not.
5. Racing the same number of races, one year apart, Sergio Perez finished 2nd in GP2, while Kobayashi finished 16th.

Who, with that knowledge, could possibly argue that Kobayashi is the better driver? Again Perez is clearly better.

No, you didn't give facts, you just made statements. Saying "its a fact" is not a fact.

As for your points:
1. Well there's already been a debate in another thread about this - but points are gained through a number reasons. Bad luck, poor strategy, etc can contribute to having less points. But I'm not going to bother trying to argue this one as you've clearly already decided not to listen.
2. Yes, and? The 2012 Sauber is very obviously a better car than the 2010 or 2011 Saubers. With this logic we could say that Button scored more points in 2011 than Hamilton did in 2009 (applying the same points system of course) - pretty fricking obviously Hamilton had a poorer car in 2009.
3. And this year Kobayashi has out-qualified Perez 8-6.
4. This isn't a fact, just your opinion.
5. Can't argue with that, Kobayashi had a mediocre career before F1 - but we are talking about F1.

You seem to rely wholly on statistics which I'm guessing is why you so aggressively cast away any suggestion that drivers can suffer from bad luck or strategies.

I think we should just agree to disagree because you've already stated you don't care about "abstract arguments" (whatever that means) and that is exactly what I'm basing my opinion from.

See I like to watch drivers and judge their ability from what I see. The statistics are a nice rough guide to who is best, but they never ever tell the full story.

And please note that I never claimed Kobayashi was better than Perez. I just think they are roughly equal.

 

[Peasantslayer]

I noticed Vettel was on the harder tyre in practice, that's a bit worrying. At the moment I would say Vettel looks favourite for pole closely followed by Hamilton and Webber.

See I like to watch drivers and judge their ability from what I see. The statistics are a nice rough guide to who is best, but they never ever tell the full story.

I agree with this, there are simply too many variables to base skill level purely on points accumulated.

 

[Goshin2568]

No, you didn't give facts, you just made statements. Saying "its a fact" is not a fact.

As for your points:
1. Well there's already been a debate in another thread about this - but points are gained through a number reasons. Bad luck, poor strategy, etc can contribute to having less points. But I'm not going to bother trying to argue this one as you've clearly already decided not to listen.
2. Yes, and? The 2012 Sauber is very obviously a better car than the 2010 or 2011 Saubers. With this logic we could say that Button scored more points in 2011 than Hamilton did in 2009 (applying the same points system of course) - pretty fricking obviously Hamilton had a poorer car in 2009.
3. And this year Kobayashi has out-qualified Perez 8-6.
4. This isn't a fact, just your opinion.
5. Can't argue with that, Kobayashi had a mediocre career before F1 - but we are talking about F1.

You seem to rely wholly on statistics whichI'm guessing is why you so aggressively cast away any suggestion that drivers can suffer from bad luck or strategies.

I think we should just agree to disagree because you've already stated you don't care about "abstract arguments" (whatever that means) and that is exactly what I'm basing my opinion from.

See I like to watch drivers and judge their ability from what I see. The statistics are a nice rough guide to who is best, but they never ever tell the full story.

And please note that I never claimed Kobayashi was better than Perez. I just think they are roughly equal.

I'm the same way. The only reason I threw statistics at you is because I don't think your opinion from watching them is very fair. You are so obviously biased towards Kobayashi (you have 'Kobayashi Fan' next to your name for pete's sake) that it is obviously clouded some judgement.

whichI'm guessing is why you so aggressively cast away any suggestion that drivers can suffer from bad luck or strategies.

You are completely missing my point here. I'm not suggesting that at all, drivers definitely suffer from bad luck and bad strategy calls. For a little while. When it happens your whole freaking career, you think you'd start to question whether or not it was actually luck.

Honestly, that's like saying "In reality, Fernando Alonso and Timo Glock have the exact same skill level, it's just Timo Glock gets unlucky. A lot. Every race. Well, pretty much every corner."

 

[Ardius]

I didn't say it happened Kobayashi's entire career. I was referring to mainly this season.
In his races for Toyota and in 2010 for Sauber, Kobayashi was actually very very lucky with strategies and reliability - which caused De La Rosa especially to look worse than he actually was.

Last season it was about even, though the points don't reflect it due to Perez being missing and suffering from his crash (though he did race to a fine 7th place at Silverstone which I found quite impressive).
Kobayashi was poorer in qualifying last year but then this year he has been better. Most of the time in "standard" conditions, I think they have been pretty equal.
Its interesting that they were mostly even in 2011 as generally Sauber put them both on the happy-go-lucky 1-stop strategies most of the time - which either screwed both of them or benefitted them both. Whereas this year its all about splitting the strategy.

I don't think I'm overly biased - of course I am biased to some extent. But I'm a fan of Perez too.

I don't know, I don't think anything I've said is that crazy or extremely biased. I can just as well say that "clearly" you're biased towards Perez. Irrelevant in the end really as we're not talking facts but opinions with some facts mixed in to come to our judgements.

 

[HeXoSKEL3t0n]

I'm the same way. The only reason I threw statistics at you is because I don't think your opinion from watching them is very fair. You are so obviously biased towards Kobayashi (you have 'Kobayashi Fan' next to your name for pete's sake) that it is obviously clouded some judgement.

Just because he has a 'Kobayashi Fan' typed next to his name, it doesn't necessarily mean he's completely bias towards Kobayashi. One can still be at least somewhat objective, even with a driver they strongly support.

It is natural for everyone to have their own favourite driver, whom we'd naturally defend when someone somewhat criticises/doubts them (especially when one uses pure statistics like points as blanket statements on the driver's slightly poor form)

Besides, it's not like you're any better either, with you defending Perez strongly also, so please don't judge others too much.

After all, things are never as simple as the figures seem to suggest. There's also many other variables to take into account, which the numbers often clearly don't indicate at all.

 

[Centura]

Is it just me or is it really sad that Jackie Stewart and Niki Lauda still attend almost every single Formula One event?

 

[SagarisGTB]

I noticed Vettel was on the harder tyre in practice, that's a bit worrying. At the moment I would say Vettel looks favourite for pole closely followed by Hamilton and Webber.

Everybody was on the harder tires at one point or another.

In FP2, Vettel was fastest on the harder compound and 3rd fastest on the softs, though it has to be said Hamilton and Webber set their laps on the softs a fair bit after Vettel did his laps. Grosjean set his laps even earlier, it has to be noted.

 

[Lizard]

Is it just me or is it really sad that Jackie Stewart and Niki Lauda still attend almost every single Formula One event?

Why is it sad that they still love the sport?

 

[Peasantslayer]

Everybody was on the harder tires at one point or another.

In FP2, Vettel was fastest on the harder compound and 3rd fastest on the softs, though it has to be said Hamilton and Webber set their laps on the softs a fair bit after Vettel did his laps. Grosjean set his laps even earlier, it has to be noted.

What I meant was he was very close to Lewis even though he had a lesser tyre (Go to about 3:30 on this link), they have both sandbagged a little bit in practice before going much faster than everyone else in Q3 this season so who knows what's going on.

 

[avens]

Time for interwebz betting. I bet all my GTchips on that Maldonado crashes or screws up in any other way this weekend.

 

[SagarisGTB]

What I meant was he was very close to Lewis even though he had a lesser tyre (Go to about 3:30 on this link), they have both sandbagged a little bit in practice before going much faster than everyone else in Q3 this season so who knows what's going on.

I don't follow. Vettel's best time on the hard tire was 1'33.9, Hamilton on the soft did 1'32.7, not very close. Vettel's best time was set on soft tires, which was 1'32.8.

 

[Seismica]

You are so obviously biased towards Kobayashi (you have 'Kobayashi Fan' next to your name for pete's sake) that it is obviously clouded some judgement.

Read:

Just because he has a 'Kobayashi Fan' typed next to his name, it doesn't necessarily mean he's completely bias towards Kobayashi. One can still be at least somewhat objective, even with a driver they strongly support.

To illustrate this point, take a look at the group that I started here a couple of years ago:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/group.php?groupid=196

Yet i'm shouting out for Perez, work that one out. Being a Kobayashi fan is irrelevant to the discussion providing the arguments put forth are backed up with logic and reason, which Ardius has done (And always does).

 

[KinLM]

Is it just me or is it really sad that Jackie Stewart and Niki Lauda still attend almost every single Formula One event?

I don't see what's sad about old racers loving their sport.

 

[RYAN]

Is it just me or is it really sad that Jackie Stewart and Niki Lauda still attend almost every single Formula One event?

What a ridicilous comment, As others have said whats wrong with being passionate and supporting the sports that has given them a great life?

As matter of fact, Nicki Lauda does some work/appearances for MercedesGP and Jackie has a role at Caterham. So that makes your comment look even more stupid.

 

[HeXoSKEL3t0n]

What a ridicilous comment, As others have said whats wrong with being passionate and supporting the sports that has given them a great life?

As matter of fact, Nicki Lauda does some work/appearances for MercedesGP and Jackie has a role at Caterham. So that makes your comment look even more stupid.

I thought Jackie was involved in helping Lotus?

 

[Goshin2568]

Just because he has a 'Kobayashi Fan' typed next to his name, it doesn't necessarily mean he's completely bias towards Kobayashi. One can still be at least somewhat objective, even with a driver they strongly support.

It is natural for everyone to have their own favourite driver, whom we'd naturally defend when someone somewhat criticises/doubts them (especially when one uses pure statistics like points as blanket statements on the driver's slightly poor form)

Besides, it's not like you're any better either, with you defending Perez strongly also, so please don't judge others too much.

After all, things are never as simple as the figures seem to suggest. There's also many other variables to take into account, which the numbers often clearly don't indicate at all.

The difference is that I'm arguing for Perez because I believe he is the better driver, not because I'm a loyal Perez fan. And yes, he may be speaking completely objectively, but the fact that A) He is going against popular opinion, and B) He is obviously a strong Kobayashi supporter, makes me think that the opinion might be out of a natural defense for the driver, as you said, rather than an objective view of the two drivers' talent.