2012 Santander Italian Grand Prix

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Just watched the highlights on the BBC 4 HOURS after the live timings :grumpy:

But anyway great stuff from Hamilton, I think he gets drive of the day just ahead of Perez.
As for Perez great stuff, quick consistent and great on the tires and some great overtakes.
Alonso sublime as always, he was on fire at the start.
Button extremely unlucky, it would have been very very interesting in the closing stages if he had kept running with Perez being so fast.
Bit dissapointed by Di Resta though, the race pace didn't see to be anywhere near qualifying, but still he took some points home.

Vettel was unlucky, I think the penalty was a bit iffy. Alonso decided to put his car in a gap that was always going to get smaller, you could see Vettel moving over BEFORE Alonso made the "move" and then had a hissy fit when it did get smaller and he was off the track. Seems a bit odd to me.
 
Pagey279
Vettel was unlucky, I think the penalty was a bit iffy. Alonso decided to put his car in a gap that was always going to get smaller, you could see Vettel moving over BEFORE Alonso made the "move" and then had a hissy fit when it did get smaller and he was off the track. Seems a bit odd to me.
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Having just seen it myself in BBC highlights that's exactly how I felt about it. Very much a case of Alonso putting himself into a position that was only ever going to get worse for him.
 
Blaze_409
So if Vettel had wrecked Alonso would he recieve a 1 race ban?
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It's plausible. That they penalised him at all suggests they deemed the move irresponsible/dangerous - if it had caused Alonso to smack into something very hard and very fast it may well have been penalised more seriously.
 
homeforsummer
I can see where this is going, but that's not true - he left a fair chunk less room.

Last year, Alonso left a car's width plus a little bit more, and also moved further to the right (his right, not right on the TV feed) when he noticed Vettel was alongside. This year, Vettel left effectively half a car's width - when Alonso went off, their wheels were actually overlapping - and only moved over after Alonso was clean off the circuit.

There's the possibility that Vettel simply didn't know Alonso was there, but since the natural racing line out of that corner is somewhere in the middle of the circuit and Vettel was much wider, I strongly suspect he knew exactly where Alonso was.
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Exactly my thoughts. In such a case there's a big difference between "effectively" half a car width (in this years case) and slightly more than a car width (when Alonso squeezed Vettel last year).

niky
To be honest, Alonso's attempt was a rather silly one, as many people run very wide on that exit, so if he'd gotten ahead of Vettel there, he could have gotten a rear full of Red Bull as Vettel understeered on the way out. But the incident happened too early in the corner for Vettel to claim that this was precisely what happened. :sly:
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From my perspective (take it for what it's worth), the main reason they run wide exiting Curva Grande is to simply minimize steering input/tire scrub and to help with siting the braking markers into the 2nd chicane (which is probably a bit hard to pick up with the shadow from the bridge just before). Of course they travel a longer distance in doing so, but this also means they put less energy/scrub into the tires which would mean slightly less stress on the tires, and less acceleration loss due to scrub/friction from an increase in steering input by taking a tighter line.

Basically what I'm trying to get at - is that I don't think the reason they run wide there is at all a legitimate case of understeer though, where the front tires are running out of grip... so if there was a driver on the outside, saying you ran out of grip and pushed him off wouldn't have been a legitmate excuse. As even on full tanks they could take that corner one handed without any issues of understeer or having to back off the throttle.
 
Good drive from Hamilton and Alonso, great drive from Perez. I reckon the championship is Alonso's - like Button in 2009 and to a lesser extent Vettel in 2011, there's a gaggle of cars all doing their best to take points off each other. That's not to take anything away from Fernando - he's driving like a champion - I just think he can cruise and collect for the rest of the season, with no single driver being able to catch him.

Hamilton has now won the big 4 - Monaco, Silverstone, Spa and Monza. He's also the 7th driver to have won the Monaco, British, Belgian, Italian and German GPs - and the only one of those 7 to have won less than 3 championships.
 
Good race all round. Great win by Hamilton and brilliant drive by Perez. I am really liking Perez ever since Malaysia, the day he wins a race I will probably be heard with screams of joy from miles away.

Also, Vettel's penalty was the right call, but on the same token Alonso shouldn't have been there in the first place
 
I don't get why people are blaming Alonso for trying to make such a risky pass. He saw a gap, and went for it. Once he was there, it now became Vettel's responsibility to make sure that that gap continued to exist, and was large enough for Alonso to stay on track. Vettel failed to do that, and so was penalized.

The only thing the stewards got wrong today was not penalizing di Resta for bumping Senna off in the braking zone. He could've scored more points today had it not been for that incident.
 
Can't take a pop at Alonso for being aggressive and also condone Perez's move on Kimi.
 
Peter.
I don't get why people are blaming Alonso for trying to make such a risky pass. He saw a gap, and went for it. Once he was there, it now became Vettel's responsibility to make sure that that gap continued to exist, and was large enough for Alonso to stay on track. Vettel failed to do that, and so was penalized.
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People are annoyed about it because there was a similar incident last year, and Alonso was not penalised. For Vettel to be penalised now - despite the stewards' crackdown on dangerous and aggressive driving - has led people to believe that the FIA is favouring Ferrari.
 
But there is a clear gap between Vettel and Alonso last year, here? Not so much.
 
prisonermonkeys
People are annoyed about it because there was a similar incident last year, and Alonso was not penalised. For Vettel to be penalised now - despite the stewards' crackdown on dangerous and aggressive driving - has led people to believe that the FIA is favouring Ferrari.
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The difference between this and last year's incidents, that people are conveniently leaving out, is that Alonso left Vettel a lot more room, and didn't push him off the road. Vettel seemed to have drove over the edge all on his own, and got on the grass.
 
Peter.
I don't get why people are blaming Alonso for trying to make such a risky pass. He saw a gap, and went for it. Once he was there, it now became Vettel's responsibility to make sure that that gap continued to exist, and was large enough for Alonso to stay on track. Vettel failed to do that, and so was penalized.

The only thing the stewards got wrong today was not penalizing di Resta for bumping Senna off in the braking zone. He could've scored more points today had it not been for that incident.
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Like I said in one of my previous posts the gap Alonso put his car in was always going to get smaller. Vettel was slightly out of shape from defending against Alonso the previous chicane, plus the line he took is the racing line.

You can't just shove your car somewhere and then say right it's your responsibility to make sure we don't crash. You can see from the replays that Vettel was moving to the outside before Alonso made the move, yet the Spaniard still decided he was going to put his car there. And he then seemed surprised that he had ended up in the grass.

Apart from that he drove supremely.
 
If Vettel had committed to the outside earlier I would say it was fair, but he squeezed him off track rather than behind him, was very dangerous. Nice to see the FIA seem to be keeping up with stricter penalties by giving him a drive-through rather than a reprimand.

Other then that Vettel has really impressed me this season, that penalty wasn't his finest driving, but other then that he's shown great race-craft and that he can compete when he doesn't have the best car.👍
 
Pagey279
Like I said in one of my previous posts the gap Alonso put his car in was always going to get smaller. Vettel was slightly out of shape from defending against Alonso the previous chicane, plus the line he took is the racing line.

You can't just shove your car somewhere and then say right it's your responsibility to make sure we don't crash. You can see from the replays that Vettel was moving to the outside before Alonso made the move, yet the Spaniard still decided he was going to put his car there. And he then seemed surprised that he had ended up in the grass.

Apart from that he drove supremely.
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The gap was big enough up to the point when Alonso was interlocknig wheels with Vettel. The gap disappeared because Vettel made it disappear.
 
Peter.
The gap was big enough up to the point when Alonso was interlocknig wheels with Vettel. The gap disappeared because Vettel made it disappear.
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But like I said you can't just shove your car into a gap that will always disappear, it was a bit of a rash move by Alonso in my books and it went wrong.
He would have been better off just letting off the accelerator a tad and the going in on the inside when the gap would not have closed, because the inside isn't the racing line.
 
And the Red Cap came off The Rat...no more doubt in my mind who Ferrari's next driver will be. Quite a moment...
 
This was one of the most exciting races of the season. Almost **** my pants several times during the race. After the 1st corner everyone went into full attack mode.

niky

Perez is faster once every five or six races. The Ferrari is ALWAYS fast. Moving to Ferrari is going to be a good move.
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You can take it up with Helmet Marko.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=262433

Centura
I'm so sick of them. How many are there in a season? Six? Seven?
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Probably 17-18

Touring Mars
I'm personally quite astonished at how well Raikkonen is doing... 3rd place now, and only 1 point off 2nd place...
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Raikkonen in for a sneaky championship similar to 2007.
 
niky
Perez is faster once every five or six races. The Ferrari is ALWAYS fast. Moving to Ferrari is going to be a good move.
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No, Fernando is always fast. Massa's turns of speed are even more irregular than Perez's. Going to Ferrari would be good for Perez, but only if they can produce a consistently fast and consistently driveable car.
 
ROAD_DOGG33J
You can take it up with Helmet Marko.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=262433
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Interesting idea, though I don't quite see it being "the best". The car has pace in some races and not others. May be down to specific set-up, but yes, it is an exceptionally strong car, especially in races where the others have tire longevity issues.

And Sergio Perez's drive was excellent, either way. I think it made Lewis quite uncomfortable when he had a hard time overtaking that Sauber after the pits cycled through and Perez was still out on those hards. Yes, the car seems very good on tires, but it was still a bit of work to keep Hamilton at bay.

ROAD_DOGG33J
Raikkonen in for a sneaky championship similar to 2007.
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That might just work. :D But he'll need a whole slew of good results... and he will need to actually win one or two races. With seven to go, if anyone can win all seven races and keep Alonso in second or lower, they can win it. If Alonso gets punted down the order every race, Hamilton, Vettel and Kimi will all have good chances.
 
niky
If Alonso gets punted down the order every race, Hamilton, Vettel and Kimi will all have good chances.
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I'm honestly cheering for Kimi, it's amazing to watch how he is average at the qualifying sessions and then steadily picks up the race pace for a good finishing spot. I reckon it will take a lot of Grosjeanin' for it to happen, though.
 
prisonermonkeys
People are annoyed about it because there was a similar incident last year, and Alonso was not penalised. For Vettel to be penalised now - despite the stewards' crackdown on dangerous and aggressive driving - has led people to believe that the FIA is favouring Ferrari.
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If the boys can't race like that anymore without the FIA all over it, why race at all? It's not that, Alonso's race ended there, and it's not like he did not pass Vettel at all because it only took him 1 lap.
 
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That video only proves the point. You'll note that Alonso leaves more than a car space and only takes the outside curb after the corner exit, with Vettel behind him.

Vettel leaves the same room at the start, then squeezes Alonso off. You can see in the video that Vettel has left less than a half-car's width to the edge before they come to the curbing. With Alonso's exit, there's still a car's width there before he moves over.
 
I suggest you watch the video again. Vettel had two wheels off the road in 2011. Alonso had all four off the road last night.

While you are right in saying Alonso's race did not end there, that still does not excuse the move. It was dangerous, and it could have just as easily ended with Alonso spinning around and hitting the wall. The fact that Alonso is skilled enough to keep it all together does not mean Vettel was any less wrong for doing it in the first place.

Perhaps the outcome would have been different if the stewards had led a crackdown on dangerous driving last year. At is so happens, they did not. But I am bemused that people seem to think that this renewed push for better driving standards means nothing. The penalty was totally justified.
 
So? What would you do if you were Vettel? I'd do the same, he's just defending his place and Alonso could've known, it's a do or die. Vettel didn't steered less to the right, so he claimed his racing line, same thing Rosberg did a few races ago.

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That was a reply on niky.
 
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"Defending his position from a faster car" is not an excuse. The rules dictate that Vettel must leave a car's width of space on the outside of the corner so as to allow the attacking driver enough room to stay on the circuit. If that meant conceding the position, it would have been a fair pass. Vettel did not do that, and as a result, he forced Alonso completely off the circuit, which is not allowed. While we have seen drivers force others to run wide in the past, the difference is that in those cases, the attacking driver had the choice of either backing off or running out of road. Here, Vettel made the choice for Alonso.

In Vettel's position, I would have moved over to cover Alonso sooner. If I thought he was going to go around the outside, I would have picked a better line going into the Curva Grande. It would have given Alonso enough time to back off and keep it on the road. Maybe he would have gotten me on the very next lap, but at least I wouldn't have been given a drive-through for my troubles.
 
The racing line for that corner happens to be a tight line that allows you to maximize the exit. Vettel was taking the racing line (middle of the track) then moves over to the outside long before the drivers normally do it.

This is the line through the curve (start at 20 seconds):

There's closing a door, and there's slamming in someone's face when their foot is through. This was undoubtedly the latter.
 
niky

And Sergio Perez's drive was excellent, either way. I think it made Lewis quite uncomfortable when he had a hard time overtaking that Sauber after the pits cycled through and Perez was still out on those hards. Yes, the car seems very good on tires, but it was still a bit of work to keep Hamilton at bay.
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Indeed when the car has its best day, Sergio is the one to do it. Though it's a shame we didn't get to see Spa play out.

I wonder how much of a difference there would be if Perez went mediums then hards.
 

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