2013 Formula 1 Gulf Air Bahrain Grand Prix

[zippy_the_cat]

2012 was a very good year for Vettel in this respect. 2010 and 2011 were easy for him, the Red Bull was undeniably dominant for both of those years; Ferrari and Mclaren never stood a realistic chance

There was nothing "dominant" about the RB in 2010; it had reliability issues early and late that pretty much always hit Vettel. I actually consider his 2010 title the most impressive of his 3 because he had to buckle down and execute at the tail end of the season -- a task that proved to be beyond Webber, who went into the same part of the season with the points lead. And let's not forget that Hamilton dropped out of the mix after unforced errors on his part led to consecutive DNFs at Monza and Singapore.

 

[JGreens]

From my point of view, Vettel is past the point where he is criticised as a driver. People know he is good. The question remaining is whether he is as good as Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton etc. I believe Alonso to be the strongest driver in F1 bar none.

Totally agree.

(Though in 2010, Alonso gave him a run for his money towards the end).

It was Petrov who screwed Alonso over and gifted the title to Vettel.

That is why I firmly believe that we need to see him up against a different teammate (Someone like Kimi, or Hulkenburg for instance) to measure his ability as a driver.

Get Vettel out of Red Bull and into a car that isn't pole-pit-tea-nap-win and we'll see how good he really is. Or Newey could do us all a favour and deliberately create a dog of a car and see how he handles it.

But is he as good as the likes of Alonso and Kimi? I don't think so.

Totally agree. But I'd put Lewis in that golden bracket. He's shown some brilliant scraps to places he shouldn't have earnt.

 

[PeterJB]

Were they "illegal" though? You'll probably say yes because it's the only excuse you can think of to give to Damon/Williams.

Well we're here 19 years on and Schumacher and Benetton's titles haven't been revoked yet, so they're legal.

It was Petrov who screwed Alonso over and gifted the title to Vettel.

It's Alonso's problem for not being able to pass Petrov. And let's not forget that Vettel lost at least 40 points to reliability that year.

Get Vettel out of Red Bull and into a car that isn't pole-pit-tea-nap-win and we'll see how good he really is. Or Newey could do us all a favour and deliberately create a dog of a car and see how he handles it.

I guess his maiden victory (and his performance throughout most of 2008 for that matter) means nothing then, seeing as how that's what got him into the Red Bull in the first place.

 

[niky]

Like I said, conveniently forgot about them. He may not have lied on purpose but a lot of Brits are so subconsciously bias their minds forget other people in the world exist.

So you conveniently forget the facts to complain about Coulthard lying, when he isn't?

If you're basing your argument "Brits are so biased they forget other people in the world exist" on false premises, what does that make your argument? True?

 

[Samus]

Totally agree.



It was Petrov who screwed Alonso over and gifted the title to Vettel.



Get Vettel out of Red Bull and into a car that isn't pole-pit-tea-nap-win and we'll see how good he really is. Or Newey could do us all a favour and deliberately create a dog of a car and see how he handles it.




Totally agree. But I'd put Lewis in that golden bracket. He's shown some brilliant scraps to places he shouldn't have earnt.

I feel like i'm losing IQ points just reading this thread.

So when Vettel can't overtake a car it's because he lacks racecraft but when Alonso can't overtake the driver is screwing him over? Because from where I was looking Vettel went out and got the job he needed to done, Alonso didn't.

 

[Barra333]

Bingo! And Vettel's records don't count because his car was/is fast.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I feel like i'm losing IQ points just reading this thread.

I don't read it anymore. Open. Glance. Close.

 

[spyrrari]

I don't read it anymore. Open. Glance. Close.

+1



Spy.

 

[JGreens]

I guess his maiden victory (and his performance throughout most of 2008 for that matter) means nothing then, seeing as how that's what got him into the Red Bull in the first place.

Statistics argument again?
Alonso scored four podiums, two pole positions, one fastest lap & one win in '03 with a shoddy car that retired five times in his second season in F1, first in the Renault.
Vettel's '08 year included only one pole, one win and six retirements in his third season in F1, second with Toro Rosso.

That's just on paper, the on-track performances speak volumes more. There's a gulf between the top three of Alonso, Kimi & Lewis to Vettel. A gulf that won't change unless he moves out of Red Bull.

I mean, Lewis had the stones to leave Mclaren to a lesser developed package and is already enhancing his credentials as a top racing driver by showing everyone on the track that it wasn't all down to the Mclaren. Alonso left Renualt to Ferrari, Kimi from Mclaren to Ferrari to Lotus. Vettel just wants to sit all comfy at Red Bull so he can waltz to title after title without even challenging himself.

 

[Peasantslayer]

There was nothing "dominant" about the RB in 2010; it had reliability issues early and late that pretty much always hit Vettel. I actually consider his 2010 title the most impressive of his 3 because he had to buckle down and execute at the tail end of the season -- a task that proved to be beyond Webber, who went into the same part of the season with the points lead. And let's not forget that Hamilton dropped out of the mix after unforced errors on his part led to consecutive DNFs at Monza and Singapore.

The 2010 RB was a seriously fast car, if he wasn't so bad at starting in that season then the title would have came much easier for him. I see Catalunya as the place that cost Hamilton the title, losing a podium place due to a puncture with only a couple of laps to go is a very rare thing. He could have done better in Singapore or Monza but I don't think he would have picked up enough points to overhaul Vettel.

 

[Wardez]

I mean, Lewis had the stones to leave Mclaren to a lesser developed package and is already enhancing his credentials as a top racing driver by showing everyone on the track that it wasn't all down to the Mclaren. Alonso left Renualt to Ferrari, Kimi from Mclaren to Ferrari to Lotus. Vettel just wants to sit all comfy at Red Bull so he can waltz to title after title without even challenging himself.

Vettel would be stupid to leave RBR in its current state.

Are you also going to say that if you were in Vettel's position you'd challenge yourself to a drive with another team just to challenge yourself? Yeah right.

If Alonso, Hamilton (who tried to get Webber's seat), or Raikkonen was on RBR, they would "sit all comfy" as well, you better believe it.

People like to call Vettel lucky, but you gotta admit he's worked hard to have everything in the position that he's had it, it's not like he was just picked up in a whirlwind of success and is a less-talent, privileged, or blessed driver. His title in 2011 was domination, the other two he earned by the skin of his teeth.

People also discredit Vettel as being some sort of lackey driver. That he just drives, Newey is all there is to it. He's known for giving some of the best feedback to his engineers, even from back in his initial F1 testing years with BMW (what a loss for them ey?). Vettel may not radiate it, but he has a really good head on his shoulders when it comes to racing.

His approach is much more like a Prost, than a Senna. He'd much rather win on paper. Prepare enough and get the pole and win on paper before it even happens if everything goes to plan. It's not the most romantic way to go about achieving a WDC, but it's definitely been that way for most champions - this is what F1 is.

 

[Seismica]

It was Petrov who screwed Alonso over and gifted the title to Vettel.

Though it was Ferrari trying to match Webber's pitstop that put Alonso back into the traffic. I'd hardly say Vettel was gifted the title as he had more than his fair share of bad luck through the year due to reliability, but he was in the fastest car. Vettel should have had 2010 wrapped up well before Abu Dhabi, and would have if it were not for reliability issues.

Get Vettel out of Red Bull and into a car that isn't pole-pit-tea-nap-win and we'll see how good he really is. Or Newey could do us all a favour and deliberately create a dog of a car and see how he handles it.

That is where you are wrong. for the first half of 2012, the Red Bull was off the pace and Vettel still delivered results. For the latter part of the year the Mclaren was still arguably faster, yet Vettel was still matching Hamilton. It certainly wasn't easy because the car wasn't dominant anymore.

That is one of the reasons why we need another teammate for him, to actually measure his ability. Every year Vettel has been in a good car he has been partnered with Webber, who hasn't been in a frontrunning car without Vettel as his teammate either.

Totally agree. But I'd put Lewis in that golden bracket. He's shown some brilliant scraps to places he shouldn't have earnt.

In my opinion, Hamilton still makes too many mistakes in the races (He made a couple last year, and loads in 2010-2011). He's looking good this year though. It is clear that the Mercedes can't quite match the Ferrari, Red Bull and Lotus in the races though.

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

Well in most championship I can remember the guy with the dominant car won. Except Raikkonen in 2007 when Alonso and Hamilton probably had the best car.

In 2003 also the championship was pretty close between Ferrari and Mclaren.

You could argue that in 94-95 Schumacher won without having the best car, at least in 94 but there's rumour that Benetton were using some sort of traction control that werent found by the FIA.

But other than that if you look at the past 20 year, the guy that won the championship had the fastest and the most reliable car on the grid.

 

[JGreens]

Are you also going to say that if you were in Vettel's position you'd challenge yourself to a drive with another team just to challenge yourself? Yeah right.

It's all ego for F1 drivers. Even if he doesn't publicly admit it, the constant hounding that all his success is down to Newey, not him, will be driving him mad and yet, he has the power to change that. Hamilton could of stayed with Mclaren and won future titles with them, instead he moves to Mercedes and improves both the team and himself. Mercedes would of never got the results with Rosberg or Schumacher. What exactly does Vettel have to lose by actually proving himself as actually competent?

If Alonso, Hamilton (who tried to get Webber's seat), or Raikkonen was on RBR, they would "sit all comfy" as well, you better believe it.

They've earnt their dues and proved they're more than just the car. Vettel has not.

People like to call Vettel lucky, but you gotta admit he's worked hard to have everything in the position that he's had it, it's not like he was just picked up in a whirlwind of success and is a less-talent, privileged, or blessed driver.

So has every other F1 driver from Chilton to Alonso? Vettel is lucky that his car designer is Newey and not morons like Tombazis...and he will not / cannot prove otherwise.

edit:
A little quip from Sir Jackie Stewart:

“He's won three World Championships now but he has unquestionably had the very best car for three consecutive years if you like,” Stewart told Sky Sports F1. “So it's not that I'm in any way diminishing his achievement - I think he's the most mature 25-year-old F1 driver I've ever experienced or seen or witnessed, so my respect for his qualities is fantastic. But just because he's won three World Championships doesn't necessarily mean he's up to Fangio or he's up to [Alain] Prost or [Jim] Clark or [Niki] Lauda or [Nelson] Piquet.”

The former three times F1 champion added that you cannot label anyone as one of the greatest drivers while they are still in the middle of their career. He said that Vettel has been driving with the best car for the last three years and to prove himself, he must display his skills with a less superior car. However, Stewart stated that since the German driver is very young, he is definitely going to be one of the greatest in the future.

Meanwhile, Stewart also said that the past season has been the best season so far and it could not get any better than this. He insisted that presently they have a collection of drivers on the grid and a charm they have not had since the time of Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost."

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

They've earnt their dues and proved they're more than just the car. Vettel has not.

Excuse me, do you remember that Seb won a race and scored a pole position on Toro Rosso ? He is the only driver that did it. Also the year where Seb was on Toro Rosso they finished ahead of Red Bull in the championship. He also finished 8th in the championship the higher that any Toro Rosso driver finished ever. And If you check the championship both Red Bull driver finished behind him (webber 11th and Coulthard 16th).
I tried to remember but I dont remember a lot of season where the 2nd team finished ahead of the factory team. So yeah Vettel proved himself already.

I'm not a fan of him, far from it, but I admit he's good and probably on the level of Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen.

 

[F1 fan]

Statistics argument again?
Alonso scored four podiums, two pole positions, one fastest lap & one win in '03 with a shoddy car that retired five times in his second season in F1, first in the Renault.
Vettel's '08 year included only one pole, one win and six retirements in his third season in F1, second with Toro Rosso.

But it wasn't his third season. It was his second season. As a matter of fact, it was only his first full season as he only participated in 8 Grand Prix in 2007. Sure, he tested in 2006 but I'd be willing to bet he didn't get anywhere near as much of the mileage Alonso did as a test driver in 2002 (1, 642 laps in total).

I like how you write off the '03 Renault while discounting the fact that the 2008 toro rosso wasn't the greatest car either. The Mclaren, Ferrari, BMW Sauber, and Toyota were all arguably better cars.

I have no intentions of wasting time bickering with you but I suggest you get your facts right in the future.

 

[Wardez]

Excuse me, do you remember that Seb won a race and scored a pole position on Toro Rosso ? He is the only driver that did it. Also the year where Seb was on Toro Rosso they finished ahead of Red Bull in the championship. He also finished 8th in the championship the higher that any Toro Rosso driver finished ever. And If you check the championship both Red Bull driver finished behind him (webber 11th and Coulthard 16th).
I tried to remember but I dont remember a lot of season where the 2nd team finished ahead of the factory team. So yeah Vettel proved himself already.

I'm not a fan of him, far from it, but I admit he's good and probably on the level of Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen.

Just gotta be fair here, yeah Vettel did a great job that year, but that STR3 was a customer car, it was an Adrian Newey design, not a Toro Rosso. STR didn't start designing their own cars until 2010.

Just wanted to be clear on that, that's all. I know you probably just meant to say he won for the team, not implying he won specifically in a car designed by Toro Rosso.

He has his fair share of huge mistakes in his rookie years though, most notably crashing into Mark in Japan '07, which was just horrible all the way around.

I think the best debut of a driver ever though, easily goes to Lewis Hamilton

 

[F1 fan]

He has his fair share of huge mistakes in his rookie years though, most notably crashing into Mark in Japan '07, which was just horrible all the way around.

Which probably wouldn't have happened if Hamilton hadn't been driving like an idiot under the safety car.

 

[JGreens]

But it wasn't his third season. It was his second season. As a matter of fact, it was only his first full season as he only participated in 8 Grand Prix in 2007. Sure, he tested in 2006 but I'd be willing to bet he didn't get anywhere near as much of the mileage Alonso did as a test driver in 2002 (1, 642 laps in total).

BMW, Toro Rosso X2 = Three. Ok, so you don't count them but I do. My facts are accurate.

Excuse me, do you remember that Seb won a race and scored a pole position on Toro Rosso ?

Once. Only once.

 

[F1 fan]

BMW, Toro Rosso X2 = Three. Ok, so you don't count them but I do. My facts are accurate.

Your "facts" are inaccurate. He filled in for Kubica at the 2007 US Grand Prix then drove the final seven races of the same season for toro rosso. 2008 was his second season and his first full season. End of.

 

[Wardez]

It's all ego for F1 drivers. Even if he doesn't publicly admit it, the constant hounding that all his success is down to Newey, not him, will be driving him mad and yet, he has the power to change that. Hamilton could of stayed with Mclaren and won future titles with them, instead he moves to Mercedes and improves both the team and himself. Mercedes would of never got the results with Rosberg or Schumacher. What exactly does Vettel have to lose by actually proving himself as actually competent?

Honestly, I'm fairly sure he wouldn't give two bothers about having to "prove himself."
He's already had to fight extraordinarily hard for his wins before and kept things together under extreme pressure, did you not watch Brazil last year? That alone changed my mind on him. Sure he had the fastest car during most of the time, but he's really had to pull himself out of some crazy slumps due to reliability problems and such. Also let's not forget that in 2009 he got sort of close to Button, even winning in China when Brawn's car was still above and beyond the others.

They've earnt their dues and proved they're more than just the car. Vettel has not.

The point is that they never had it as well, it wasn't by their choice. If either of those drivers were asked, " Would you rather start off with a backmarker team in the traditional F1 career path so you can prove yourself first? Or would you like this nice seat in a car engineered by the world's best F1 designer.

So has every other F1 driver from Chilton to Alonso? Vettel is lucky that his car designer is Newey and not morons like Tombazis...and he will not / cannot prove otherwise.

edit:
A little quip from Sir Jackie Stewart:

“He's won three World Championships now but he has unquestionably had the very best car for three consecutive years if you like,” Stewart told Sky Sports F1. “So it's not that I'm in any way diminishing his achievement - I think he's the most mature 25-year-old F1 driver I've ever experienced or seen or witnessed, so my respect for his qualities is fantastic. But just because he's won three World Championships doesn't necessarily mean he's up to Fangio or he's up to [Alain] Prost or [Jim] Clark or [Niki] Lauda or [Nelson] Piquet.”

The former three times F1 champion added that you cannot label anyone as one of the greatest drivers while they are still in the middle of their career. He said that Vettel has been driving with the best car for the last three years and to prove himself, he must display his skills with a less superior car. However, Stewart stated that since the German driver is very young, he is definitely going to be one of the greatest in the future.

Meanwhile, Stewart also said that the past season has been the best season so far and it could not get any better than this. He insisted that presently they have a collection of drivers on the grid and a charm they have not had since the time of Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost."

Vettel will get his shot in a bad car again sometime within the next couple years. RBR can't be successful forever. Could even be next year, we'll see how he does then, he'll have a fresher, faster, teammate soon enough as well.

What Jackie's saying is true though, a driver doesn't reach the status of those such as the legends mentioned in your quote just by racking up wins. Vettel's legend will be of a different make, not as idealistic and hollywood as traditionally, but a legend none the less. He'll be the engineer's champion, the left brain types that will have all the merit in the world to tout him as one of the best ever.

 

[daan]

What seems to be forgotten about Monza 2008 is that Bourdais qualified 4th in the other Red Bull with a Ferrari engine Torro Rosso. He stalled on the grid so had to start from the pit lane, a lap down. He pretty much kept pace with Vettel the whole race and set 2nd fastest race lap (to Vettel's 14th fastest race lap) so it would seem that even though it was a "Torro Rosso" the car was really on it that day.

 

[priesty_lfc]

Vettel would be stupid to leave RBR in its current state.

Are you also going to say that if you were in Vettel's position you'd challenge yourself to a drive with another team just to challenge yourself? Yeah right.

If Alonso, Hamilton (who tried to get Webber's seat), or Raikkonen was on RBR, they would "sit all comfy" as well, you better believe it.

People like to call Vettel lucky, but you gotta admit he's worked hard to have everything in the position that he's had it, it's not like he was just picked up in a whirlwind of success and is a less-talent, privileged, or blessed driver. His title in 2011 was domination, the other two he earned by the skin of his teeth.

People also discredit Vettel as being some sort of lackey driver. That he just drives, Newey is all there is to it. He's known for giving some of the best feedback to his engineers, even from back in his initial F1 testing years with BMW (what a loss for them ey?). Vettel may not radiate it, but he has a really good head on his shoulders when it comes to racing.

His approach is much more like a Prost, than a Senna. He'd much rather win on paper. Prepare enough and get the pole and win on paper before it even happens if everything goes to plan. It's not the most romantic way to go about achieving a WDC, but it's definitely been that way for most champions - this is what F1 is.

I think Seb (I'm not a fan btw) should have went to Mercedes.

Schumacher went to Ferrari and transformed them and will be forever known as a legend there.

Yes Seb will get plaudits and will continuo to do so at RBR however Newey will also be a huge part of that.

He could have went to Mercedes and tried to turn them around and in doing so enhanced his reputation. Instead he's gonna stay with RBR and probably win more championships but I don't think it would be as impressive as if be done it with Mercedes.

You can't blame him but it is taking the easy route out, I respect Lewis now more than I ever would if he stayed at McLaren.

 

[Wardez]

What seems to be forgotten about Monza 2008 is that Bourdais qualified 4th in the other Red Bull with a Ferrari engine Torro Rosso. He stalled on the grid so had to start from the pit lane, a lap down. He pretty much kept pace with Vettel the whole race and set 2nd fastest race lap (to Vettel's 14th fastest race lap) so it would seem that even though it was a "Torro Rosso" the car was really on it that day.

Definitely, Mark Webber was no slouch either, he qualified third and had decent pace. No one runs away with first like Vettel though, that was his arrival.

Why'd you strike out "Red Bull with a Ferrari engine"? It's totally accurate.

Red Bull as a whole was on it that day. Funny how it was at a track that's the most low-drag dependant of the season.

Which probably wouldn't have happened if Hamilton hadn't been driving like an idiot under the safety car.

The other drivers in the field that day didn't seem to have any trouble with it.

 

[daan]

Why'd you strike out "Red Bull with a Ferrari engine"? It's totally accurate.

I was indicating that although it was called a Torro Rosso it really wasn't a Torro Rosso as we know it.

 

[PeterJB]

Statistics argument again?
Alonso scored four podiums, two pole positions, one fastest lap & one win in '03 with a shoddy car that retired five times in his second season in F1, first in the Renault.
Vettel's '08 year included only one pole, one win and six retirements in his third season in F1, second with Toro Rosso.

That's just on paper, the on-track performances speak volumes more. There's a gulf between the top three of Alonso, Kimi & Lewis to Vettel. A gulf that won't change unless he moves out of Red Bull.

I mean, Lewis had the stones to leave Mclaren to a lesser developed package and is already enhancing his credentials as a top racing driver by showing everyone on the track that it wasn't all down to the Mclaren. Alonso left Renualt to Ferrari, Kimi from Mclaren to Ferrari to Lotus. Vettel just wants to sit all comfy at Red Bull so he can waltz to title after title without even challenging himself.

As F1 fan said, 2008 was his first full-length season of racing. Alonso had already had an entire year of racing and then testing under his belt. Plus, none of Vettel's six retirements were his fault. Most of them were caused by other drivers crashing into him.

Need may I remind you that Lewis had a rather shoddy performance during the first half of 2009 (when he didn't have a front-running car). And now, his and Rosberg's performance have shown that Mercedes is no slowcoach. Do you really think any driver would realistically leave the team with the fastest car to go to one where they'd struggle to get points? Not at least if they have a good relationship with the team. Lewis' was looking strained, to say the least towards the end. Vettel spent most of 2012 and all of 2010 behind other drivers in the standings. His end-of-season charges are mind-blowing, he gets the job done.

 

[Samus]

Hamilton could of stayed with Mclaren and won future titles with them, instead he moves to Mercedes and improves both the team and himself. Mercedes would of never got the results with Rosberg or Schumacher.

Ha ha. Always funny to see the fanboy come flying out in people.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Shout out to Grosjean,there seems to be 2 modes of Romain Grosjean, one is the crash and burn type the other a really fast driver,luckily we got to see awesome Romain this time, have high hopes for him.

 

[BHRxRacer]

So you conveniently forget the facts to complain about Coulthard lying, when he isn't?

If you're basing your argument "Brits are so biased they forget other people in the world exist" on false premises, what does that make your argument? True?

What the **** are you talking about? What facts did I conveniently forget, and what false premises am I basing it on?

I feel like i'm losing IQ points just reading this thread.

You better be referring to Jgreen's posts alone.

I don't read it anymore. Open. Glance. Close.

One of hell of a glance to catch that one post you quoted then.

That is where you are wrong. for the first half of 2012, the Red Bull was off the pace and Vettel still delivered results.

It wasn't "off" because I'm sure Webber did great.

Well in most championship I can remember the guy with the dominant car won. Except Raikkonen in 2007 when Alonso and Hamilton probably had the best car.

In 2003 also the championship was pretty close between Ferrari and Mclaren.

You could argue that in 94-95 Schumacher won without having the best car, at least in 94 but there's rumour that Benetton were using some sort of traction control that werent found by the FIA.

But other than that if you look at the past 20 year, the guy that won the championship had the fastest and the most reliable car on the grid.

Did you read my post about Schumacher? He only only won the title twice with the fastest car.

he moves to Mercedes and improves both the team and himself. Mercedes would of never got the results with Rosberg or Schumacher.

Unbelievable. If this is what I sound like when I bitch about Vettel I better stop.

I know I've already shut the topic of Vettel being lucky last race, but I just watched Ted's notebook from sky and even HE implied that.

 

[Seismica]

Well in most championship I can remember the guy with the dominant car won. Except Raikkonen in 2007 when Alonso and Hamilton probably had the best car.

In 2003 also the championship was pretty close between Ferrari and Mclaren.

You could argue that in 94-95 Schumacher won without having the best car, at least in 94 but there's rumour that Benetton were using some sort of traction control that werent found by the FIA.

But other than that if you look at the past 20 year, the guy that won the championship had the fastest and the most reliable car on the grid.

There is a strong case that Ferrari had the fastest car in 1999 aswell, but the championship fight was cut short because of Schumacher's accident in Silverstone. Not taking anything away from Hakkinen's win, but things may have played out differently had Schumacher been unharmed in the incident.

edit:
A little quip from Sir Jackie Stewart:

“He's won three World Championships now but he has unquestionably had the very best car for three consecutive years if you like,” Stewart told Sky Sports F1. “So it's not that I'm in any way diminishing his achievement - I think he's the most mature 25-year-old F1 driver I've ever experienced or seen or witnessed, so my respect for his qualities is fantastic. But just because he's won three World Championships doesn't necessarily mean he's up to Fangio or he's up to [Alain] Prost or [Jim] Clark or [Niki] Lauda or [Nelson] Piquet.”

The former three times F1 champion added that you cannot label anyone as one of the greatest drivers while they are still in the middle of their career. He said that Vettel has been driving with the best car for the last three years and to prove himself, he must display his skills with a less superior car. However, Stewart stated that since the German driver is very young, he is definitely going to be one of the greatest in the future.

Meanwhile, Stewart also said that the past season has been the best season so far and it could not get any better than this. He insisted that presently they have a collection of drivers on the grid and a charm they have not had since the time of Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost."

Jackie Stewart's comments are actually a thinly veiled compliment for Vettel. In making those comments, he is actually putting Vettel in the same group as the greats even though he is stating that Vettel still has more to prove. You don't compare a driver to the greats of the sport if they have not achieved something great themselves. I also question that he had the fastest car for 3 seasons straight. 2010 his car was easily the fastest, but with poor reliability. 2011 it was certainly the best. 2012 it was not the fastest, but it's reliability record (At least on Vettel's car - Webber had KERS failures every other race) was exemplary, and allowed him to make the most of those weekends that he wasn't able to start on the front row.

Just gotta be fair here, yeah Vettel did a great job that year, but that STR3 was a customer car, it was an Adrian Newey design, not a Toro Rosso. STR didn't start designing their own cars until 2010.

Just wanted to be clear on that, that's all. I know you probably just meant to say he won for the team, not implying he won specifically in a car designed by Toro Rosso.

To add to that, we also have to consider that Monza is a very unusual circuit (Pretty much the polar opposite of Monaco which is equally unique). The track is about straightline speed through aerodynamic efficiency and mechanical grip for sector 2. We saw with Force India at Spa 2009 that a car can break the trend at one of these relatively unique circuits through having a car that is well optimised for that type of track. The Red Bull/Toro Rosso of 2008 may have lacked overall downforce, but it was extremely efficient in how it produced it's downforce. If you look at the speedtrap statistics for qualifying in 2008, Toro Rosso and Red Bull were always very good, usually only behind Mclaren and Ferrari. I would post a link to the Monza speedtrap times, but they're skewed in favour of Red Bull and Toro Rosso because of the wet qualifying. 4 of the top 5 in the speed traps were Red Bulls. (Heres the link anyway for reference: http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2008/800/6561/speed_trap.html)

The frontrunners had a little misfortune in qualifying in Monza 2008 to, which helped bring Vettel to the front (Similar to Maldonado in Barcelona; does anybody realistically think he would have won that had he been stuck behind Hamilton into turn 1?).

It wasn't "off" because I'm sure Webber did great.

In the first half of the season, the two Red Bull drivers only had a combined total of 5 podium finished out of a possible 20, and a total of 3 wins out of a possible 10. Compare that to the start of 2010 where they had 10 podiums and 5 wins, or 2011 where they had 15 podiums and 6 wins (For the purposes of parity, i'm comparing the first 10 races of each, as 2010 and 2011 each only had 19 races in total). Their 2012 car was nowhere near as good as their 2010 or 2011 cars relative to the field. They were not the pacesetters in the first half of 2012. Mclaren were certainly faster and Mercedes were better on occasion too. It's hard to compare because it was so close, but Red Bull certainly weren't "The team to beat" as it were. They were however, amongst the frontrunners. There is a big difference between settings the pace and keeping up with whoever does happen to be setting the pace.