2013 Formula 1 Santander German Grand Prix

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Seismica
I completely disagree. My thoughts go back to Singapore 2011. An incident between Schumacher and Perez prompted a safety car which wiped out Vettel's lead. This would give Button the opportunity to overtake on the restart. Before the safety car, Button was catching Vettel at the rate of a second per lap.

What actually happened was Kobayashi let Vettel past and then ignored the blue flags, holding Jenson up for an entire lap. By the end of a single lap, Vettel had an 8 second lead. Button finished 1.7 seconds behind Vettel, he could've done with that 8 seconds.
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Yeah, but if Vettel earned that lead fair and square then the safety car closing it is unfair.

Either way, they could've restarted the race a lap or two earlier when Webber was still catching up.
 
Seismica
I completely disagree. My thoughts go back to Singapore 2011. An incident between Schumacher and Perez prompted a safety car which wiped out Vettel's lead. This would give Button the opportunity to overtake on the restart. Before the safety car, Button was catching Vettel at the rate of a second per lap.

What actually happened was Kobayashi let Vettel past and then ignored the blue flags, holding Jenson up for an entire lap. By the end of a single lap, Vettel had an 8 second lead. Button finished 1.7 seconds behind Vettel, he could've done with that 8 seconds.

There have been many other similar incidents, but this one stands out for me.

Letting the lapped cars pass levels the playing field and insures that lapped cars do not interfere with the racing.



I think you underestimate the number of variables that affect fuel consumption in a race.
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I did say "Sure let Webber pass but once he's past the safety car that should be it", it was waiting another two laps for him to catch the back of the train I didn't agree with.
 
Seismica
I think you underestimate the number of variables that affect fuel consumption in a race.
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Not at all, they earn their salaries and my respect by the amount of variables they manage in a race. But if Alonso was due to run out of fuel a lap from the end, they would be able to deal with it in order to get him to the finish. If it is due to run out just after the finish they can deal with it, especially considering the lap is done at a slower speed, no bearing on the result and greater fuel efficiency.

You add a safety car as we had yesterday and there is even more help and time available in which to save precious fuel.

Alonso got an advantage yesterday in not having to save fuel for that lap back to the pitlane, and I don't understand also why this is not the strategy from the start to be stopping on the "victory lap".

On the safety car situation, I'm with Brundle in either letting the lapped cars go and then releasing the pack on the next lap, or seeing them shuffled backwards. The transponders would see them having run a lap less than everyone else, some additional software then to gift drivers a lap forward to save the time it would normally take.

Surely it is a safety issue as well, with Webber lapping as fast as he was. We all know the track was clear of driverless Marussia's yesterday, but it would be best not to have cars racing through traffic!
 
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What about the one one liter rule in which they must have at least 1 liter of fuel to give to the FIA for inspection? It gets mentioned almost every race by the NBC commentators.

I'm not sure exactly what the penalty is for not having fuel for post-race inspection, but I would think it DQs them or something, right?

I haven't seen anything reporting that he actually ran out of fuel though. I mean if we knew Red Bull and Force India were fined like within an hour after the race, I would think we would know if Alonso was penalized or not by now.
 
pezzarinho17
I don't understand also why this is not the strategy from the start to be stopping on the "victory lap".
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Nobody carries enough fuel to do an entire race flat out. Realistically, everyone could run their tanks dry before the end, but how much each tank carries depends on whether the team finds more pace by being lighter or more pace by being more powerful.

That's where it becomes difficult to judge. And then you get into fights for position, where you're forced to turn the fuel maps way up for the extra power for longer than you'd like.

In qualifying, you know the drive will be going flat out over the timed lap, and throttled way down on the other two laps, which makes calculation simple.

I agree about the safety car and unlapping, though... but I think rules on track position and counting results would make it difficult to allow cars to do "virtual" unlapping.
 
There is no fuel regulation at the end of the race because the difference between having enough fuel to reach the finish line and nothing more and having enough fuel to finish the race and do a slow lap back to the fits is so negligible after 300km of racing it's not worth worrying about. Maybe a tenth of a second, if that.
 
pezzarinho17
Not at all, they earn their salaries and my respect by the amount of variables they manage in a race. But if Alonso was due to run out of fuel a lap from the end, they would be able to deal with it in order to get him to the finish. If it is due to run out just after the finish they can deal with it, especially considering the lap is done at a slower speed, no bearing on the result and greater fuel efficiency.

You add a safety car as we had yesterday and there is even more help and time available in which to save precious fuel.

Alonso got an advantage yesterday in not having to save fuel for that lap back to the pitlane, and I don't understand also why this is not the strategy from the start to be stopping on the "victory lap".

On the safety car situation, I'm with Brundle in either letting the lapped cars go and then releasing the pack on the next lap, or seeing them shuffled backwards. The transponders would see them having run a lap less than everyone else, some additional software then to gift drivers a lap forward to save the time it would normally take.

Surely it is a safety issue as well, with Webber lapping as fast as he was. We all know the track was clear of driverless Marussia's yesterday, but it would be best not to have cars racing through traffic!
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It's much more difficult to accurately estimate the amount of fuel needed for a 60 lap race than a 3 lap stint in qualifying. That is why the rule of getting back to the pits under your own power has not been extended to the race.
 
The amount of degradation was too damn high.

Driver(s) of the day: Grosjean, Webber
Good efforts: Alonso, Button, Hamilton, Rosberg, Vettel


Still can't believe Mercedes could **** things up so bad in qualifying for Nico and STILL have the worst degradation compared to all the other teams.
 
BHRxRacer
The amount of degradation was too damn high.

Driver(s) of the day: Grosjean, Webber
Good efforts: Alonso, Button, Hamilton, Rosberg, Vettel


Still can't believe Mercedes could **** things up so bad in qualifying for Nico and STILL have the worst degradation compared to all the other teams.
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Apparently the ban on switching the tyres around has hurt Mercedes, We'll see a new compound at Hungary so I hope the car works better on those new tyres. I think their car will be awesome at Monza though regardless of the tyres: long straights to cool the tyres, lots of slow corners which again will keep them cool, they should be quick in a straight line, they'll probably use the DRD which they have developed which will make them even quicker in a straight line and when everyone uses low downforce their FRIC system should make the difference in the corners.
 
prisonermonkeys
I fell asleep some time around lap 6.

Looks like I didn't miss anything major.
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This was one of the few races this year I genuinely enjoyed watching throughout. DRS wasn't too much of a nuisance and the tyres were fine. The different strategies played out nicely although slightly spoiled with the safety car.

The win went down to the wire as well (along with 3rd and 5th place battles) - this was quite an enjoyable Vettel win to watch as he really had to work for it. I really don't mind watching Vettel win like this because it wasn't easy for him. Top marks for him to hold on against the pressure.
 
Ardius
This was one of the few races this year I genuinely enjoyed watching throughout. DRS wasn't too much of a nuisance and the tyres were fine. The different strategies played out nicely although slightly spoiled with the safety car.

The win went down to the wire as well (along with 3rd and 5th place battles) - this was quite an enjoyable Vettel win to watch as he really had to work for it. I really don't mind watching Vettel win like this because it wasn't easy for him. Top marks for him to hold on against the pressure.
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He did well to hang on, I think they should have swapped Romain and Kimi's strategies near the end of the race, Romain was the one with the pace on the super softs earlier in the race and I think he would have caught Vettel.
 
Peasantslayer
Apparently the ban on switching the tyres around has hurt Mercedes, We'll see a new compound at Hungary so I hope the car works better on those new tyres. I think their car will be awesome at Monza though regardless of the tyres: long straights to cool the tyres, lots of slow corners which again will keep them cool, they should be quick in a straight line, they'll probably use the DRD which they have developed which will make them even quicker in a straight line and when everyone uses low downforce their FRIC system should make the difference in the corners.
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I'm thinking the same, and since the tire will be more 2012 in construction, it should last them we hope. The problem I feel will still be the heat, since Monza gets to a good temp.
 
Samus
So no Ted or that weird Tom guy from the BBC in the pitlane during raceday anymore.
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Well presumably they can still report from the garages which is where they tend to hang about anyway, they already aren't allowed near the pit wall and can't move very far about the pit lane..so in that respect it doesn't make much difference.

Its more the live camera shots that will be missed.
 
The camera crews were probably in the way from the start. The teams are professionals and block out distractions but, they arent needed in the teams area. Compared to the days when everyone wore t-shirts and shorts while changing tyres and refuelling, the cameramen are still nuts not to wear protective gear today. I'm sure floating cameras(like CCTV) could be constructed at each pit. Also, better helmet cams for tyre changers might be the way to go. F1 will sort it out.
 
The overhead cameras looking down directly on the car combined with shots from the pit wall should be fine.

It's still mind boggling to me that not only did people not wear any real protective gear in those days there was also NO speed limit. Cars were barreling down the pit lane at full speed, utter madness.
 
Can someone explain to me in what way any of these "changes" would have prevented the accident?
They say only team personnel and marshals are allowed in the pit lane, they're just as likely to be hit as anyone else, especially if one of their cars is in for a stop at the same time that the incident happens. This also makes the team personnel are only allowed in the pit lane immediately before working on the car rule pointless. All team personnel now have to wear helmets, although it wasn't on the head that the cameraman was hit...The pit lane speed limit now gets reduced too, but what difference does that make when the cars still produce the same wheelspin? It's not like Webber was on the limiter when the wheel fell off, he had barely pulled out of the box.
The only issue was the car being released in the first place. The penalties should be alot more severe, for example not receiving any constructors points for the event it occurs in.
 
SilverArrow
Can someone explain to me in what way any of these "changes" would have prevented the accident?
They say only team personnel and marshals are allowed in the pit lane, they're just as likely to be hit as anyone else, especially if one of their cars is in for a stop at the same time that the incident happens. This also makes the team personnel are only allowed in the pit lane immediately before working on the car rule pointless. All team personnel now have to wear helmets, although it wasn't on the head that the cameraman was hit...The pit lane speed limit now gets reduced too, but what difference does that make when the cars still produce the same wheelspin? It's not like Webber was on the limiter when the wheel fell off, he had barely pulled out of the box.
The only issue was the car being released in the first place. The penalties should be alot more severe, for example not receiving any constructors points for the event it occurs in.
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I agree with you, I think the change is to cover the ass of the FOM and FIA to be honest. It doesn't look good for the sport when the broadcasters providing it can't keep personal and news outlets safe. They are a not so needed group and crew members as well as marshals and officials are. Either way will this stop people in general from possibly getting hurt? Not at all. Will it stop broadcasters from getting hurt? Sure. Yet the danger is still there, I don't think the speed should have been altered. Now we will see even bigger strategy woes for teams especially if they try pulling off what we saw this past GP.

As for such a harsh penalty, it's RBR we know that the FIA isn't going to take away points from them. I think a grid penalty would have been nice.
 
SilverArrow
The only issue was the car being released in the first place. The penalties should be alot more severe, for example not receiving any constructors points for the event it occurs in.
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As for such a harsh penalty, it's RBR we know that the FIA isn't going to take away points from them. I think a grid penalty would have been nice.
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I'm sure you guys were saying the same the thing when there have been similar incidents in the past not involving Red Bull.
 
Peasantslayer
Apparently the ban on switching the tyres around has hurt Mercedes, We'll see a new compound at Hungary so I hope the car works better on those new tyres. I think their car will be awesome at Monza though regardless of the tyres: long straights to cool the tyres, lots of slow corners which again will keep them cool, they should be quick in a straight line, they'll probably use the DRD which they have developed which will make them even quicker in a straight line and when everyone uses low downforce their FRIC system should make the difference in the corners.
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They're going to be humiliated in Hungary. Especially so after Pirelli just announced they're bringing the soft and mediums rather than mediums and hards. The days of them actually holding on at the top for the first half of the race are over.

Samus
I'm sure you guys were saying the same the thing when there have been similar incidents in the past not involving Red Bull.
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You jump to conclusions a lot and give people **** when THEY do it.

Regarding the whole pitlane thing. RB shouldn't have been fined really. That **** happens all the time, it just happened to have hurt someone now. Silverarrow already explained how the new restrictions are pointless. It doesn't make a difference to me if we get reports from the pitlane and/or pitstop feed, but it's rather silly to have the ban.
 
BHRxRacer
You jump to conclusions a lot and give people **** when THEY do it.

Regarding the whole pitlane thing. RB shouldn't have been fined really. That **** happens all the time, it just happened to have hurt someone now. Silverarrow already explained how the new restrictions are pointless. It doesn't make a difference to me if we get reports from the pitlane and/or pitstop feed, but it's rather silly to have the ban.
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Right, didn't know wheels fell off on a regular basis.
 
BHRxRacer
You jump to conclusions a lot and give people **** when THEY do it.

.
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What? My point was people always seem quick to want to penalise Red Bull when they do something but weren't so vocal when other teams did something similar.
 
Furinkazen
Right, didn't know wheels fell off on a regular basis.
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Please count the number of times a gunner failed to lock-in a new wheel this (or last) season and get back to me.
Dennisch
Why punish a driver with a grid penalty for a fault of the team?
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Wait, what? I don't know who suggested that but that's rubbish. I personally don't think they should be punished at all during the race. A hefty fine or constructor points deduction is enough.

@Samus; I agree with you (despite being a 'RedBull hater'), but I was just pointing out that you always group people into categories and make assumptions. Something you've accused ME and others of on several occasions.
 
Samus
Can't say I disagree with Gary Anderson on the pit stops:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23230229

They are too fast with too many people and too much pressure to get the car gone.
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Almost the less people you have the more interesting it becomes. What if it was the two jacks and one guy running around changing all the wheels? :D

Also, lengthening the absolute amount of time pit stops take changes tyre stop strategy significantly. If a pit lane excursion takes thirty seconds instead of twenty, there's a lot more incentive for teams to run long stints on older, slower tyres. Potential for bigger gains from correct strategy, and for exciting speed differences where a Marussia is actually dicing with a Red Bull simply because they're on fresh tyres.

Dunno, if any of that is good, but it's interesting.
 
I just think at three seconds the pit stops are completely uninteresting to the viewer, they might as well not show them unless something goes wrong. It's obviously very impressive but it's over in a blink of an eye.

At the very least it should only be two men per wheel, three, one doing the gun, one taking it off and one putting it on is too much and the desire for speed in this area is where troubles come in. You can't expect a human to get it right every time at that pace.
 
Samus
...It's obviously very impressive but it's over in a blink of an eye...the desire for speed in this area is where troubles come in. You can't expect a human to get it right every time at that pace.
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I think the number of bodies involved actually reduces the efficiency, in cases like this: With 16-20 people moving around, it's hard to notice one guy flailing his arms to signify "wait! the air gun jammed" or "no, no, no; the wheel nut became cross-threaded".

Until it impacts every team, they're going to value four more tire-changers to gain six seconds per race, per the track. After all, some average mechanic's salary of $40k-60k (guessing) is far cheaper than spending millions on some carbon-fiber/aerodynamic doodad that will be obsolete or copied in six months. In an odd way, this is temporary cost-cutting for teams. Moar peoples!

(This should really be its own topic, in my opinion; while it did occur in this thread's race, it's been a part of the sport for the past two seasons.)
 

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