2013 Formula 1 Santander German Grand Prix
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JGreens
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We'll never know, because Lotus don't have the bottle. There was a slot open, for one lap, where Kimi could of have pitted and exited ahead of Grosjean and a second to two seconds behind Vettel, which is just one better option they could of done. They didn't. They waited and waited and waited. I'd speculate that if Kimi had two, three extra laps - would of made the pass and got the job done. They cost him the race.
Just another strategy mistake. Lotus will never win a championship with calls like that, even if they had the car.
JGreens
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About the last half hour, maybe more. I can't remember the exact lap when the TV came on. Why? I saw the real-time data that everybody could see and judge and my call for Kimi's race would of at the very least, given him a better opportunity at the win.
Why is it so difficult for people to accept that teams fudge up? It's clearly not driver error, nor tyres. The blame lies at Lotus.
- 22,549
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- HamiltonMP427
Yeah if we based everything on stats then Kimi should have more likely not finished this race or out of the points. However, we know that stats only tell part of the story and not the fully story...to look at them to an absolute degree. There are 10 gps to go we have last years construction coming back which will probably be a bigger benefit to Ferrari and Lotus, there are variables to each years that weren't like the prior most times. If you want to leap frog to the end and say these things that's fine, but it's far from over.
JGreens
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Give me the opportunity!
That also applies to any fan of any sport that's ever held any opinion regarding it...
edit:
EXACTLY! At one point the gap was almost 16 seconds, when a pit takes 16.8 and guaranteed position on track ahead of Grosjean! There wasn't a better opportunity...
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It was a near thing for Lotus. They had two cars today that had a chance to win. They blew it by letting them trip over each other.
Race Recap:
#1: Sebastian Vettel: Don't think I've ever heard him scream that loud, but he deserves a little celebration. Anyone who tells you that you shouldn't be deliriously happy to have your first ever win at your home Grand Prix, to be the first local driver to ever win at your home Grand Prix, and to win it with such strong opposition ought to go suck a cucumber. I hear Narain Karthikayen is available. Excellent work finding the pace to hold off Romain at the middle there, and good strategy and driving to hold that first place through to the end.
#2: Kimi Raikkonen: A case of too little, too late. Or too something too whatever. The Lotus looked invincible out there on track. While they got lucky with Hamilton and Webber's woes, 2nd and 3rd should make the team very happy. Kimi ran the long-odds strategy and almost made it work. Just one more lap or one less lap under the safety car, and it probably would have.
#3: Romain Grosjean: Needed a good race this year, got a great one. He came very close to winning it all. He did a fantastic job on the first stint, outlasting everyone else and doing good pace, and fully deserved to take 2nd. But at the end, he ran out of steam ont he primes.
Perhaps if he spent a few laps less behind Kimi at the start, he would have won. Lotus perhaps didn't want to take points from Kimi, but any points they could take away from everyone else would have helped him, too.
#4: Fernando Alonso: Drove great. Nothing to complain about, except perhaps the fact that the car isn't all that good compared to the other top teams at this track. Had a fantastic scrap with Hamilton mid-race. Great those two have for each other.
#5: Lewis Hamilton: Good recovery given the car's bad form with heavy fuel loads at the start of the race. Got held up way too long behind Rosberg, who was on a different strategy completely and should have known better. Mercedes has a lot of work left to do in fixing their tire situation... and perhaps their strategy situation.
#6: Jenson Button: Great work on saving tires, but consider the three places he gained from the start were Massa (DNF), Webber (DNWFWG) and Ricciardo (just a Toro Rosso), McLaren still have some work to do. One of the better team battles today, when Perez shoved him out of the way early on. But he who laughs last, laughs last.
#7: Mark Webber: Just how bad is everyone else compared to Red Bull? Mark was one lap down before the safety car, and passed every number two except Grosjean before the end. Seventh place from dead last in half-a-race. Now if only Sebastian would stop sticking his chewing gum to Webber's wheel-nut before each race...
No one else matters.
Losers of the day:
Jules Bianchi: Parking brake, please. I'm wondering if they'll add that to the long list of stuff they're investigating after the race.
Felipe Massa: Was going great guns, then was gone. And out of bullets. He just can't get a break, can he?
Mercedes GP: Bad strategy calls in qualifying, untenable strategy during the race, it all kind of went backwards for them this Sunday.
Winners of the day:
Yabba-dabba-wAHOOOOOOOOOO!: Ouch. My ears.
Romain Grosjean: I guess you can... uh... keep the seat?
Pirelli: Must be breathing a sigh of relief. And the tire-enabled strategies are fully back into play. Good balance of tires, this race.
Race Recap:
#1: Sebastian Vettel: Don't think I've ever heard him scream that loud, but he deserves a little celebration. Anyone who tells you that you shouldn't be deliriously happy to have your first ever win at your home Grand Prix, to be the first local driver to ever win at your home Grand Prix, and to win it with such strong opposition ought to go suck a cucumber. I hear Narain Karthikayen is available. Excellent work finding the pace to hold off Romain at the middle there, and good strategy and driving to hold that first place through to the end.
#2: Kimi Raikkonen: A case of too little, too late. Or too something too whatever. The Lotus looked invincible out there on track. While they got lucky with Hamilton and Webber's woes, 2nd and 3rd should make the team very happy. Kimi ran the long-odds strategy and almost made it work. Just one more lap or one less lap under the safety car, and it probably would have.
#3: Romain Grosjean: Needed a good race this year, got a great one. He came very close to winning it all. He did a fantastic job on the first stint, outlasting everyone else and doing good pace, and fully deserved to take 2nd. But at the end, he ran out of steam ont he primes.
Perhaps if he spent a few laps less behind Kimi at the start, he would have won. Lotus perhaps didn't want to take points from Kimi, but any points they could take away from everyone else would have helped him, too.
#4: Fernando Alonso: Drove great. Nothing to complain about, except perhaps the fact that the car isn't all that good compared to the other top teams at this track. Had a fantastic scrap with Hamilton mid-race. Great those two have for each other.
#5: Lewis Hamilton: Good recovery given the car's bad form with heavy fuel loads at the start of the race. Got held up way too long behind Rosberg, who was on a different strategy completely and should have known better. Mercedes has a lot of work left to do in fixing their tire situation... and perhaps their strategy situation.
#6: Jenson Button: Great work on saving tires, but consider the three places he gained from the start were Massa (DNF), Webber (DNWFWG) and Ricciardo (just a Toro Rosso), McLaren still have some work to do. One of the better team battles today, when Perez shoved him out of the way early on. But he who laughs last, laughs last.
#7: Mark Webber: Just how bad is everyone else compared to Red Bull? Mark was one lap down before the safety car, and passed every number two except Grosjean before the end. Seventh place from dead last in half-a-race. Now if only Sebastian would stop sticking his chewing gum to Webber's wheel-nut before each race...
No one else matters.
Losers of the day:
Jules Bianchi: Parking brake, please. I'm wondering if they'll add that to the long list of stuff they're investigating after the race.
Felipe Massa: Was going great guns, then was gone. And out of bullets. He just can't get a break, can he?
Mercedes GP: Bad strategy calls in qualifying, untenable strategy during the race, it all kind of went backwards for them this Sunday.
Winners of the day:
Yabba-dabba-wAHOOOOOOOOOO!: Ouch. My ears.
Romain Grosjean: I guess you can... uh... keep the seat?
Pirelli: Must be breathing a sigh of relief. And the tire-enabled strategies are fully back into play. Good balance of tires, this race.
- 22,549
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- HamiltonMP427
They waited because they thought they could get Grosjean ahead of Vettel, have him hold up Vettel since they'd have the same life of tire. Thus, giving Kimi a more adequate gap and since he had to run the option, a better window to work in and be fast enough yet not lose the life of the tire before the end of the gp.
Read what I wrote again, you are just regurgitating bull**** inane posts that you used already, that were half thought up then and now. Kimi never had the gap because they were too close for most of the race 15-16 wasn't enough Kimi needed more like 17-19 and Lotus even said this. Yet live in your fantasy land where you think Vettel is just super lucky and that teams are not doing enough to diminish his "luck" to win a race.
Last week they cost him the race, this week RBR were actually better.
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But would the soft tires have lasted to the end if they pitted Räikkönen earlier (if sprint with soft tire was their game plan all that time)?
- 22,549
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- HamiltonMP427
That my point it wouldn't have, the game plan from what I could see and hear was to have him go to the end on the primes I think. Yet the track was warm today and the tires wouldn't have made 30+ laps.
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Almost 16 seconds puts you back in second place. On medium tires. The same tires Vettel had. They'd be two or three laps fresher, but that doesn't help all that much.
Lotus had two drivers in contention. They gambled on covering Vettel (or Red Bull covered them...) with Grosjean on the mediums-to-the-end strategy.
With Kimi, they kept him out so he could do either one less stop and stay out (but as said, he wouldn't have been able to keep the tires together...) or do a softs-to-the-end strategy. If he'd pitted earlier and put on mediums, no dice. Behind Vettel. Same tires.
If he'd pitted earlier and put on softs, no dice. Behind Vettel, tires that would last him 8 laps (unless he could do a Grosjean, but we didn't see that from him at the start) and might have let him overtake Vettel after two or three laps, only to run completely out of grip a few laps from the end, putting Kimi in third.
For the strategy they chose for Kimi, he couldn't have pitted more than a lap or two earlier (and would have still been behind Vettel. The only thing they missed was having him come out behind Grosjean... which was Lotus's only mistake in that set of pits.
ROAD_DOGG33J
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What's your point? My opinion isn't based on just statistics.
The same tires that Vettel almost dominated the last half of the season on, once Red Bull figured them out? Red Bull are winning the development race once again. I don't see them screwing up majorly.
JGreens
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Any other networks get down to why Fernando went off and stopped at the very end?
When Will Buxton (NBC) interviewed him, we just got a recap of the race then a very stern walk off from Fernando and Will awkwardly going "Wwwwhaooop Uhh One more ques.."
It feels like all you other guys get the best coverage....I watch the F1 pre show and F1 Extra and I still have to come here for all the details! Oh NBC...
When Will Buxton (NBC) interviewed him, we just got a recap of the race then a very stern walk off from Fernando and Will awkwardly going "Wwwwhaooop Uhh One more ques.."
It feels like all you other guys get the best coverage....I watch the F1 pre show and F1 Extra and I still have to come here for all the details! Oh NBC...
JGreens
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Totally agree. Both championships are OVER. Has been for a while, but you keep watching in hope....
Good end to the race but a dull first half. Kimi could and probably should have won it but fair play to Grosjean, he deserved the second he would have got without the order. A good drive from Vettel though, he drove under heavy pressure for a long part of the race and never put a foot wrong.
Terrible accident with the camera man but I do get the feeling those camera guys should not be in a live pit lane without any safety gear. Luckily he seems to be ok but what about other things that may happen, fires or flying debris. It doesn't seem safe to me.
I also didn't like the safety car situation, by the time it came out the car was actually safe and it stayed out far too long. The safety car is meant to neutralise the race for safety reasons, I don't see why it should also be an excuse to 'reset' the race. Sure let Webber pass but once he's past the safety car that should be it, not waiting until he's caught the train. A waste of two or three laps there with no safety issues on the track.
Terrible accident with the camera man but I do get the feeling those camera guys should not be in a live pit lane without any safety gear. Luckily he seems to be ok but what about other things that may happen, fires or flying debris. It doesn't seem safe to me.
I also didn't like the safety car situation, by the time it came out the car was actually safe and it stayed out far too long. The safety car is meant to neutralise the race for safety reasons, I don't see why it should also be an excuse to 'reset' the race. Sure let Webber pass but once he's past the safety car that should be it, not waiting until he's caught the train. A waste of two or three laps there with no safety issues on the track.
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Do you not remember last year? When halfway through the season Alonso was winning the Drivers Championship by over 50 points, then in just a few races Vettel not only caught up, but overtook and reversed the roles by extending a 50 point lead Over Alonso? Not to mention the fact that in the last 3-4 races Alonso nearly clawed those 50 points back again to actually win the WDC.
Teams don't sit still you know.
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- HamiltonMP427
34 points out in the WDC right now and 67 out in the WCC. If we look at 2010 Lewis had 21 point ahead of Vettel and if we based things on the past then people would have said Lewis would win. Yet we know different don't we? Also 2011 RBR crushed everyone there was no chance, but 2013 isn't like 2011 it is another 2010/2012 season leaning more toward 2010. Lotus isn't all that slow to RBR, neither is Merc when the car is set up right. Ferrari seem to be average when you compare the top 4 teams. Let's not forget where Alonso had a bigger gap with almost 50 points over Vettel this time last year.
Dominated? Let's have a turn back in time. Alonso lost significant point due to Romain almost taking his head off at Spa. Japan also hurt Alonso when he crashed out. That is far from dominating when we clearly saw the Ferrari was as fast if not faster at times than RBR in 2012. So once again Ferrari and Lotus should be even faster than today, RBR don't have this in the bag and still have tons of work to do.
How are they winning it? No one is winning it outright. If this was another 2011 I'd have to agree, but Merc and Lotus have parts still to come down the road, Ferrari aren't going to give up because they too have a solid chance at WDC and WCC still.
Point is keep watching
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If some people can't take the heat, they can just tune in for the last five minutes of the race... in time to hear the "Yabba dabba doo!" 
The rest of us, meanwhile, will continue to watch to see some great battles and fantastic driving. I liked this race, a lot. Lots of fights for position. Lots of strategic by-play. Lots of action. And thankfully very few retirements, and none of them due to collisions.
It was a good, clean fight. 👍
You wanted them to pit him earlier. Which would have put him behind Vettel on the same tires... no chance to overtake... or behind Vettel on soft tires... chance to overtake with a huge chance of losing several places to tire degradation at the end.
What else would you have them do? They covered Vettel with Romain, and they had Kimi stay out, hoping to keep him out without stopping again. That's a split strategy, and very sensible.
What ruined it was externalities. The drivers. Vettel's ability to cover them. Traffic. Lotus played a good hand and lost. Even if they did the "sensible" thing and pitted Kimi in cycle with the other two, it would still be Lotus 2-3 instead of Lotus 1-2.
The rest of us, meanwhile, will continue to watch to see some great battles and fantastic driving. I liked this race, a lot. Lots of fights for position. Lots of strategic by-play. Lots of action. And thankfully very few retirements, and none of them due to collisions.
It was a good, clean fight. 👍
You wanted them to pit him earlier. Which would have put him behind Vettel on the same tires... no chance to overtake... or behind Vettel on soft tires... chance to overtake with a huge chance of losing several places to tire degradation at the end.
What else would you have them do? They covered Vettel with Romain, and they had Kimi stay out, hoping to keep him out without stopping again. That's a split strategy, and very sensible.
What ruined it was externalities. The drivers. Vettel's ability to cover them. Traffic. Lotus played a good hand and lost. Even if they did the "sensible" thing and pitted Kimi in cycle with the other two, it would still be Lotus 2-3 instead of Lotus 1-2.
Dragonwhisky
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Some folks are always good for a chuckle here and there. By their apparent rabid hate of RBR, I get the distinct impression they might be a bitter, disgruntled, ex-employee. Or, more likely, a denied applicant. Either way, the press they produce is counter-productive. Even bad press is better than no press.
While I don't have anything against him personally, and I would rather see Kimi or Rosberg win on a regular basis, I like it when Vettel wins just to prove that rednecks are not indigenous to the US.
Thanks.
While I don't have anything against him personally, and I would rather see Kimi or Rosberg win on a regular basis, I like it when Vettel wins just to prove that rednecks are not indigenous to the US.
Thanks.
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