2013 Petronas Malaysian Grand Prix

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Classic - Andy Blackmore's spotters guide response to Lewis and his problems.

I see the problem Lewis didn't see the red, actually I am highly surprised that RBR and STR drivers don't screw up, those crews look to much alike

 

[Samus]

I see the problem Lewis didn't see the red, actually I am highly surprised that RBR and STR drivers don't screw up, those crews look to much alike

They're at opposite ends of the pits though, you'd struggle to make that mistake. Mercedes and McLaren are only two garages apart.

 

[Seismica]

^ Yes he would. Lewis was out of fuel and has a driving style that damages the tires a bit faster.

But that is a very interesting point of view. I still think that IF the times of Vettel's pit stops have been as fast as Webber's he would be in first position at the end of the last pit stop round.

But you don't disagree that it would have delayed Vettel enough to pull him into Rosberg's clutches? Vettel was fuel saving aswell remember, and they were apparently struggling with tyre wear all weekend. I'm just saying that Red Bull made their decision to pit Vettel first to conserve his track position. Vettel was given an inch and took a mile.

If Webber was pitted first, Vettel wouldn't have got close enough to get the DRS because he would have come out behind Hamilton. By the time Vettel got past, Webber would have been gone and Rosberg would've attacked Vettel until the finish.

EDIT: I re-watched that part. Hamilton was around 1.5-2 seconds behind, so I doubt Vettel would have fallen behind into third place. But, my original point this stands. Vettel did gain a big advantage with the undercut as he was 4.2 seconds behind on lap 41 (prior to the pit stop), but was neck and neck with Webber when he emerged from the pits.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

They're at opposite ends of the pits though, you'd struggle to make that mistake. Mercedes and McLaren are only two garages apart.

Unless...wait for it...you didn't drink your red bull Also I know I think Ham just had a simple mistake, that clearly everyone wants to make fun of, since he is Lewis

^ Yes, but the race doesn't end in the las pit stop ^^

F1 has always had these silly gentlemen agreements, thus to perserve cars and maintain the most points haul possible.

1st year of Lewis in Mercedes.
Mercedes said they don't have 1st and 2nd driver.
Rosberg is prohibited of overtake Lewis (without any risk) - to the team would be the same thing/same points


Not very consistent.

...Let's make it clear, Nico thought he could get more than third, and run after them. Now there are two issues with this, either you try and do it and fall short because he was low on fuel -says the team- or he falls short due to burning out the tires and needs to pit, thus also getting less points are ending back in fourth where he was when given orders. Thus proving Brawn correct in not needing to run after two cars. Hence why he said their is "NOTHING to gain ahead of Lewis, and you have the distance behind, so hold position"

Let's put it this way, if someone like Nico is in this position again or webber or vettel and it doesn't work out and blows up in the drivers face. I don't think people should come on here crying, the team has a valid reason for playing it safe and the drivers will have a valid time to fight. This isn't some child's game, it is a chess match. Also it shows your lack of understanding when you use a misconception of "lewis lacks tire control" which isn't true and is especially untrue for this race. Both drivers were told to run the cars like they stole them and not watch after the tires so...let's clear this out the way...did you or did you not watch the race? And if you did are you here to flame are actually talk about the GP on an intelligent level?

 

[Seismica]

Unless...wait for it...you didn't drink your red bull Also I know I think Ham just had a simple mistake, that clearly everyone wants to make fun of, since he is Lewis

I don't think we should make a big deal out of it. It doesn't matter who did it, it was hilarious. As Lewis said in the podium interview, he 'did a Jenson' as Button did it a couple of years ago too. That was equally hilarious.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't think we should make a big deal out of it. It doesn't matter who did it, it was hilarious. As Lewis said in the podium interview, he 'did a Jenson' as Button did it a couple of years ago too. That was equally hilarious.

That's my point...I'm saying people are making fun of it because he is Lewis, but we didn't see this type of stuff when others have done it like Button. So it's a bit ridiculous but people should have their fun nothing wrong with that.

When did he blame Webber?

He has been quoted by Sky, BBC and other sources and used Brazil last year as an example of Webber not listening to team orders either. Thus putting blame on webber as to say, he should be mad at Vettel.

In the end, F1 just isnt for me. Whats "fair" or "sporting" is brushed aside in favor for cold, mathematic calculations that generate a scenario which gives the teams the highest chance to win the race or championship. Many seem to be OK with that, but Im not. If I paid money to watch a race and heard the top 4 cars were told not to battle at the end of the race, I'd be very upset. And I see no point in watching it on television either

Let's paraphrase shall we!? In other words you don't like the idea of a sport playing the game of the sport...wow, you must not like sports much, interesting. In other words it is the idea to bring in the most points as a team. Two cars wrecking each other to do it (which Seb could have any closer to the pit wall like a child), one or two running out of fuel to do it, or running out of tires to do it. Or better yet running the engine and risking a transmission or engine that is suppose to carry you for as long as needed. Hey if all these rational things don't make sense, then not sure what to tell you. If you paid money (actually did so) you would have got what you paid for a calculated race like all of the past F1 races. Hell even nascar does this from time to time, and if you hate F1, you must hate Nascar when the top ten are all saving fuel for the end of the race and not really chasing each other.

 

[Nessy]

I see the problem Lewis didn't see the red, actually I am highly surprised that RBR and STR drivers don't screw up, those crews look to much alike

Going from that picture, the similarity between Williams and Sauber looks to be quite close too.

 

[Seismica]

That's my point...I'm saying people are making fun of it because he is Lewis, but we didn't see this type of stuff when others have done it like Button. So it's a bit ridiculous but people should have their fun nothing wrong with that.

I think I didn't word it right. I was agreeing with you Some people are still angry about him leaving Mclaren, which is probably why they're making fun of Lewis so much.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Going from that picture, the similarity between Williams and Sauber looks to be quite close too.

Maybe...if the Grey was Blue. You must be trying to be funny

But in the shade of the pits and the fact that we know that Blue is quite dark in reality and so is the grey, I think I could understand that. Man I wish we had more pit pictures to understand this better...OH WAIT WE DO!!!

I think I didn't word it right. I was agreeing with you Some people are still angry about him leaving Mclaren, which is probably why they're making fun of Lewis so much.

Ah I see, and hey people should care about the talent of the driver not the team so much. Teams live on, drivers come and go.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I think you forget how much Jenson was laughed at when that happened to him. In the autosports forum they even made gifs, memes and photoshopped images of it.

It's a laugh, guys, I don't think anyone truly wants or expects this mistake by Lewis to allow more than that. And that "spotters guide" is hilarious!

 

[RACECAR]

I laughed at it for the same reason I laughed at Button somehow mistaking the Mercedes team pit: it was out of the clear blue and it was hilarious.

 

[Nessy]

You must be trying to be funny

Yep, just making fun of the spotter guide picture.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yep, just making fun of the spotter guide picture.

They're not even that close, so yeah it was a good joke on your part.👍

I think you forget how much Jenson was laughed at when that happened to him. In the autosports forum they even made gifs, memes and photoshopped images of it.

It's a laugh, guys, I don't think anyone truly wants or expects this mistake by Lewis to allow more than that. And that "spotters guide" is hilarious!

Yeah I don't remember it that much then, I don't remember the memes but I'm sure they exist. I tend to remember just race stats and facts.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Let me help then (hope the mods don't mind this slight offtopicness)

SHOULD'VE GONE TO SPECSAVERS

WRONG SERIES JENSON

WRONG GIRL JENSON

WRONG CAR LAUNCH JENSON

ERRRRR ....

WE'VE ADDED A GPS SCREEN, IT MIGHT HELP AND IT'S NOT ILLEGAL

WRONG PITS JENSON

WRONG SHIRT JENSON

A DOG MIGHT HELP ...

WHO EXACTLY AM I WORKING FOR?

PROMISING ACTING CAREER

JENSON'S FLYING TODAY

WILL HE SCORE?

HEY, WHO LET THESE GUYS IN?

WINDOWS HELP

ERROR 404

​

That enough?

 

[zzz_pt]

F1 has always had these silly gentlemen agreements, thus to perserve cars and maintain the most points haul possible.

Yeah. But from Nico's reaction he doesn't have one...or at least he didn't.

...Let's make it clear, Nico thought he could get more than third, and run after them. Now there are two issues with this, either you try and do it and fall short because he was low on fuel -says the team- or he falls short due to burning out the tires and needs to pit, thus also getting less points are ending back in fourth where he was when given orders. Thus proving Brawn correct in not needing to run after two cars. Hence why he said their is "NOTHING to gain ahead of Lewis, and you have the distance behind, so hold position"

Let's put it this way, if someone like Nico is in this position again or webber or vettel and it doesn't work out and blows up in the drivers face. I don't think people should come on here crying, the team has a valid reason for playing it safe and the drivers will have a valid time to fight. This isn't some child's game, it is a chess match. Also it shows your lack of understanding when you use a misconception of "lewis lacks tire control" which isn't true and is especially untrue for this race. Both drivers were told to run the cars like they stole them and not watch after the tires so...let's clear this out the way...did you or did you not watch the race? And if you did are you here to flame are actually talk about the GP on an intelligent level?

Lack of understanding? Go and say that to Sky F1's commentators (ex-F1 racing drivers). They've said that Lewis is hard on his tires. He's an aggressive driver an that reflects on tire degradation. I'm not saying nothing new here... you must (or should) know this.

I saw the Race, the Q and parts of FP sessions. Are you saying you're intelligent and I'm stupid? I hope not. Take it easy dude.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yeah. But from Nico's reaction he doesn't have one...or at least he didn't.

That was more toward RBR...because of your "race doesn't end on the last pit stop", RBR is who I'm talking about since their team orders happened around the last pit stop as well, not just Merc GP.


Lack of understanding? Go and say that to Sky F1's commentators (ex-F1 racing drivers). They've said that Lewis is hard on his tires. He's an aggressive driver an that reflects on tire degradation. I'm not saying nothing new here... you must (or should) know this.

I saw the Race, the Q and parts of FP sessions. Are you saying you're intelligent and I'm stupid? I hope not. Take it easy dude.

Still it has been proven equally that Lewis can maintain his tires, to say that it is one way based on an ex-driver doesn't mean much...I mean unless said ex-driver also had the data, which they don't then...

Just asking simple questions...I'm taking it quite easy

 

[Bram Turismo]

Oh my word, all the Jenson puns. Genius!

 

[HKS racer]

Ok since it's meme time I add my little countribution,
we lost the race but never forget...

Think twice.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Oh my word, all the Jenson puns. Genius!

Seeing them made me laugh, thanks for reminding me of the past.

 

[Ardius]

That's my point...I'm saying people are making fun of it because he is Lewis, but we didn't see this type of stuff when others have done it like Button. So it's a bit ridiculous but people should have their fun nothing wrong with that.

Why is it that literally anything to do with Hamilton, good, bad, funny, sad whatever - his fans always seem to make a fricking big deal out of it in some way? It seems like most Hamilton fans keep feeling the need to defend the hell out of him lately and make it out like he's singled out more than others. (not suggesting you are - but I'm a little tired of the same old line that "poor Hamilton")

Vettel gets a hell of a lot of stick lately too. As did Alonso until recently. In fact, I think people's perception of Alonso has changed almost entirely because Vettel and Hamilton have created the headlines and generated the fanbases/haters instead.

Hamilton has been and always will be a controversial character that polarises opinion. As long as he is in F1 he will keep getting the same attention because of this.

Button rarely gets mocked as he is an underdog and is seemingly a little bit more level-headed regarding the media.

I don't think the attention Hamilton gets is unfair. He generates the majority of it himself just through his personality. Same as Vettel.

Ok since it's meme time I add my little countribution,
we lost the race but never forget...

Think twice.

I'm also tired of seeing this brought up over and over again. Why is that people think its funny for a drinks company to own an F1 team? Has everyone forgotten when a fashion company owned an F1 team and won 2 WDCs and 1 WCC?
Or the Japanese estate company that almost won a race?

Making roadcars almost means nothing in F1. There is no carryover. There hasn't been for a long, long time, basically going back to the 80s. And even then, it was only because manufacturers tended own their own engine companies/specialists and engines actually mattered.
So the idea that a road car manufacturer can be beaten by "just a drinks company" is not that funny to me. It makes a lot of sense actually considering who is more likely to be doing well financially, etc.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Why is it that literally anything to do with Hamilton, good, bad, funny, sad whatever - his fans always seem to make a fricking big deal out of it in some way? It seems like most Hamilton fans keep feeling the need to defend the hell out of him lately and make it out like he's singled out more than others. (not suggesting you are - but I'm a little tired of the same old line that "poor Hamilton")

I know you're not saying me, but I must note I did say I don't think Button should have been made fun of either.

Vettel gets a hell of a lot of stick lately too. As did Alonso until recently. In fact, I think people's perception of Alonso has changed almost entirely because Vettel and Hamilton have created the headlines and generated the fanbases/haters instead.

Hate when any driver gets it so yeah...Alonso I was more inclined to do so back in the day because I think he should have talked down the racist actions more so of his fans. Hence why Hamilton still sees himself very hated in Spain. Yet, I like Alonso and know he can't control people and isn't really his fault. Vettel wins alot so what, it happens no I don't like it but I defend the guy when anti-fans skew facts to be moronic and just blow steam at a guy that is doing well. In general no driver needs to be hated just because outlets make them massive, the drivers don't ask to be loved by media, fans and such..

Hamilton has been and always will be a controversial character that polarises opinion. As long as he is in F1 he will keep getting the same attention because of this.

Yeah but doesn't mean it is needed any more than any other pilot on the grid.

Button rarely gets mocked as he is an underdog and is seemingly a little bit more level-headed regarding the media.

Also has a liked on screen appeal too and seems relaxed and easy go so that may help...but there are those that hate on him

I don't think the attention Hamilton gets is unfair. He generates the majority of it himself just through his personality. Same as Vettel.

eh...that is where I'll disagree with you, I understand but when people actually are asinine and then use personal bias to get at them it is annoying and not needed. Especially when newer fans want to learn about these drivers and see tons of non-information

 

[chromatic9]

That one is easy. It's part of my job to detect lies and one general simple rule about it is that if a person has contradictory statements the one you dismiss right at the start is the one that suits that person's interests better.

Other general rule is that what is said in the thick of the action is probably more truthful than what is said after the fact and also after due preparation.

In short ... Nico might not have the fuel or the speed to catch the RBR guys. (Kudos for him to keep a fighting spirit though). But he sure had both the fuel and the speed to catch and pass Hamilton. And he should have done it.

Unless Hamilton is regarded as some sport of british-spoiled-kid-like-Vettel and can't be trusted to get the car home because he is unable to sustain his own team mate passing him. If that's the case, then Brawn was right in being afraid of the situation. But it also would speak volumes about how he perceives Hamilton.

Are people forgetting that Lewis retook Rosberg?

If left to carry on they would've lost more fuel and tyres needlessly competting and potentially ruining a great result. This finish is huge for Mercedes, and huge pressure for the team to not cock it up.

 

[Ardius]

eh...that is where I'll disagree with you, I understand but when people actually and asinine and then use personal bias to get at them it is annoying and not needed. Especially when newer fans want to learn about these drivers and see tons of non-information

I just feel its inevitable. You know when Hamilton comes out with poor jokes like his Ali G reference its going to spawn 1000 pages of arguing. I just ignore it or leave it to other people.

I'm quite enjoying listening and reading the Vettel/Webber thing. Its slightly different, there is an interesting paradox of individualism versus team mentality as well as a purist sporting attitude versus a team-player attitude. I don't think there is a right or wrong with it, its just a matter of preference.
Certainly Vettel hasn't shown many positive charateristics with his actions, but its understandable at least and I find it hard to really say he should have followed team orders...as I did enjoy the battle on track and what it represented.

Quite amusing to see some people acting a little contradictory saying Rosberg should have ignored team orders but Vettel should have followed them.
To me both drivers should ignore team orders and race the hell out of their teammate. Thats far more fun to watch. Lets scrap the team radios and leave the drivers to have at it.

Certainly interesting to watch how Red Bull deal with this as there are a number of things which need to be sorted out immediately:
1. Horner/senior management need to re-asset themselves and remind their employees who is calling the shots. Otherwise, why should they listen to any instruction? This event has compromised their position.
2. They need to sort out the relationship between the 2 drivers because it will divide the team. McLaren know too well about this from 2007, where you have mechanics and engineers splitting into 2 groups. Its self-destructive to the team atmosphere.
3. They have to be very careful with Vettel. They don't want to lose him but equally they can't exactly appease Webber if they don't do anything..plus see point 1. But the problem is Webber is very likely to leave the team or retire sooner than Vettel is. I fear the team may decide that its better to lose Webber than it is to lose Vettel. But that doesn't solve point 1.

 

[Wardez]

I've actually just changed my tune when it comes to this RB incident.

I'm now on RB's side, with a lean towards Vettel for this particular race, and I'll tell you why.

Webber was ignoring team orders before, as Centura rightly pointed out, and indeed has double standards. Mark's being pretentious.

The reason I didn't give the incident from 2011, where Mark ignored team orders and tried passing Vettel, enough credence was because I was under the impression that the team order was different to the one they gave in Malaysia this year. I thought the difference was that there had been no prior plan in place, 'Multi 21,' in the Silverstone 2011 event, but there was!

Webber totally tried stabbing Vettel, and the team, in the back.

Here's the source of the information I'm presenting:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/07/10/webber-red-bulls-order-pass-vettel/

Here's what changed my stance:

“The message was quite clear to him, what the team expected of him – not what I expected, what the team collectively expected.”

Horner said Webber: “should be fine” with the team orders, adding: “It was crystal clear this morning when we went into the race that it was all about getting the most points we can out of this event.

And Mark freely admits to ignoring the order, as if this makes things better?

Why do we as fans carry a double-standard for him? 'cause we should feel sorry for him? That's the only reason I can think of, well unless you're Australian as well I suppose. But even then, you should support him, not blindly permit him all of this behavior.

Webber did it first, Vettel was just getting his right revenge.

Payback's a bitch.

Webber disobeys team orders in Britain 2011: everyone supports Webber for disobeying team orders
Webber disobeys team orders in Abu Dhabi 2012: everyone slants Red Bull for giving team orders
Webber disobeys team orders in Brazil 2012: everyone slants Vettel for not starting faster
Vettel disobeys team orders in Malaysia 2013: OMG, team orders should always be followed!

The thing with Redbull isn't about giving team orders. It's about how they continually harp on about being equal and not using team orders, then the above happens. If they just come out and say 'Webber is number 2, Vettel is number 1' then that's it. Webber was a jerk in Brazil. Abu Dhabi was hilarious because it was off the back of 'we don't use team orders' malarkey. Most of the time, Webber should perform better over the season and he wouldn't be in those positions.

I hope Horner gives his same speech to Vettel as he did with Webber;

Realizing this and going back to that video I posted makes things look much more bad ass. I say either let them have at it, or do the forced passive-aggressive thing and try to strangle the RB drivers into submission, which it's too late for now anyway.

It's Red Bull's fault though, for not having a good enough handle on their drivers and being way too mum about it all. So they can do their best to try and calm the team and get on with the racing but the damage is done and they have to live with it now, damage control.

Parity and consistency is needed. Webber knows his place and he races for RedBull. Vettel thinks he owns the team and he needs to be reminded that he is an employee of the team and that in brutal frankness, the only place he could go is McLaren because Ferrari and Mercedes have a better driver than himself, and none of those 3 would play well with each other nor would those two teams need Vettel in the slightest.

I've never actually seen Marko or Horner so annoyed with Vettel, more so than they have ever been with Webber. Management is partly to blame for all this anyway. 2010 they say they would rather lose the title than use team orders. But then they happily sacrifice Webbers championship to trick Ferrari for Vettel. 2011 they enforce team orders, 2012 they enforce team orders. Rightfully so in my opinion, problem is they continually protest that they are 'free to race', when they clearly aren't. Just come out and say Webber is 2nd driver, Vettel 1st. We all know Lewis is 1st driver whether we want to admit it. We all know Alonso is 1st driver whether we want to admit it.

Redbull try and take people for idiots, which is why people have a grievance.

 

[Strawman Andy]

when a fashion company owned an F1 team and won 2 WDCs and 1 WCC?
Or the Japanese estate company that almost won a race?

Who was that team?

I agree with everything else you stated, but the bit where Button is an underdog I didn't agree with. He's a world champion, true he's not as fast as Vettel or Hamilton but he has brains and is still quicker than most drivers out there.

I like Button because he is straight talking guy, to the media and to the fans.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Regarding Lewis pitting at McLaren, them finishing 3rd last year probably did not help matters but will probably make Lewis more alert in future which is a good thing.

Anyway as you may know drivers have a lot of sponsor commitments. This video shows Mark taking commitment to the next level:



Hopefully next time Mark remembers to take his Swisse Multi 21s so he could then be a race winner again...

 

[chromatic9]

Red Bull won't come out and say Webber is number two. Webber needs to feel he can win the odd race, he has been a good driver for Red Bull, capable of some great wins and places that stop Alonso and others from taking points, and not strong enough to take points from Vettel over a season, he's perfect for Red Bull at this time. He's said himself he's not interested in joining a middle team and wants to play at the business end of F1, deep down he's happy to be up there and bag some wins and help the team.

When Webber goes the next driver wlil have to have the same feeling. Red Bull had it nicley set up despite some set backs but the last race threw it up in the air. A lot of smoothing over has to be done. it's not about who broke orders first or have drivers scrapping it out when the race is done.

Vettel undermined what RedBull have going, you see it in Marko even. Vettel has a better chance with happy second driver taking points, driving hard believing he has a chance of glory now and then but not out rightly dictaiting that and every race vettel is behind telling said driver to move over for the golden child. That wouldn't work unless you have a slow rookie who lucked into a lead once or some poor sap.

Vettel's churlish radio saying get him out of the way sums up how he's believed his own hype and station. I think he's learned now it isn't the 100% Vettel show and he's upset the bosses.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I just feel its inevitable. You know when Hamilton comes out with poor jokes like his Ali G reference its going to spawn 1000 pages of arguing. I just ignore it or leave it to other people.

I agree, but is it necessary toward them as race drivers? Not really I think. I enjoyesd the Ali G comment due to liking Ali G. But in the context used...was as bad as when people in the U.S. pull that card, so didn't like that.

I'm quite enjoying listening and reading the Vettel/Webber thing. Its slightly different, there is an interesting paradox of individualism versus team mentality as well as a purist sporting attitude versus a team-player attitude. I don't think there is a right or wrong with it, its just a matter of preference.
Certainly Vettel hasn't shown many positive charateristics with his actions, but its understandable at least and I find it hard to really say he should have followed team orders...as I did enjoy the battle on track and what it represented.

Quite amusing to see some people acting a little contradictory saying Rosberg should have ignored team orders but Vettel should have followed them.
To me both drivers should ignore team orders and race the hell out of their teammate. Thats far more fun to watch. Lets scrap the team radios and leave the drivers to have at it.

That's probably the main point I have issue with, which you addressed quite well. I don't see how people can say Rosberg should have and Vettel shouldn't myself. Either you are for everyone following orders or no one at all.

Nothing else to really say on it

 

[The Outlaw]

All I can say is - if Vettel happens to win the WDC at the end of the year by 7 points or less I'll be laughing my arse off He'll look like a ruthless genius, and RBR will probably praise him to some degree for his actions at this particular race lol (assuming Webber isn't in contention in the last race...which IMO he won't as long as the chewing gum tires are in place)

Also, IMO Webber's just acting like a big frustrated baby (and a hypocrite at that) not being able to be gifted the win while his times running out.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

Certainly interesting to watch how Red Bull deal with this as there are a number of things which need to be sorted out immediately:
1. Horner/senior management need to re-asset themselves and remind their employees who is calling the shots. Otherwise, why should they listen to any instruction? This event has compromised their position.
2. They need to sort out the relationship between the 2 drivers because it will divide the team. McLaren know too well about this from 2007, where you have mechanics and engineers splitting into 2 groups. Its self-destructive to the team atmosphere.
3. They have to be very careful with Vettel. They don't want to lose him but equally they can't exactly appease Webber if they don't do anything..plus see point 1. But the problem is Webber is very likely to leave the team or retire sooner than Vettel is. I fear the team may decide that its better to lose Webber than it is to lose Vettel. But that doesn't solve point 1.

Nor, really, does it solve point 3. Vettel may leave anyway. Webber at this point is certain to go, but Vettel like Alonso and Hamilton (who've already made their choices) has to make calculations about the new formula. And if the rumors about McLaren and Honda prove out, who's to say that either Red Bull or Ferrari would be the best destination for him? We've all been looking at this like it's Seb's marking his territory vis-a-vis Webber. Maybe that's wrong; maybe it's Seb laying down a marker to communicate to Horner and Newey that he's not necessarily sold on the idea that they'll always have the right answers or that Red Bull is necessarily the right place for him to be. Maybe this is his Lewis-beginning-to-break-with-McLaren moment.